New Zealand votes to legalise euthanasia in referendum
Results must be enacted by the new Labour government by November 2021, but second referendum on legalising cannabis fails to find support
www.theguardian.com
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New Zealand votes to legalise euthanasia in referendum but not legalising cannabis
- Thread starter SilentPanda
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www.theguardian.com
yeah, I'm not sure how I feel about euthanasia. As a doctor in south Auckland, i feel patients wanting to be euthanised is a reflection on our failure in our health system to help that patient.
I was worried about marijuana coming through as well. Alcohol problems in South Auckland is bad enough, and that stuff is legal.
I was worried about marijuana coming through as well. Alcohol problems in South Auckland is bad enough, and that stuff is legal.
And throwing them in jail/giving them criminal records helps that in what way?
Those marijuana results are surprising, didn't think Kiwis were so conservative about this subject.
this is true. Don't get me wrong, if a patient is immentietly dying, I have put them on the end of life pathway. Active care is withdrawn and we give supportive care. I have applied for palliative care funding for my patients who I know will die within the next few weeks. These aren't just cancer patients, there have been times where the patients are in the 50s and 60s.
The caring is focused on keeping them comfortable, letting their families have more time with them and giving them a dignified death.
But actually pushing the drug to take that life away?
There is nothing sadder than old people having to starve themselves to death because euthanasia is illegal, or who are forced to undergo all kinds of procedures just to squeeze out a few more months of life on the doctor's orders instead of giving them a calm, peaceful death at a moment of their choice.
Modern medicine is a miracle, but it has also completely destroyed our relationship with death.
Just my sentiment but I support it. We may never be able to completely alleviate the tremendous suffering, both physical and emotional, that some people go through in the final stages of their life. People should have the right to choose their own well-counseled care, including the right to death. Their body, their choice. I understand hesitance for it when mental health inhibits the ability of the patient to make those choices, but otherwise, it should absolutely be up to the person in question. And in the mean time we continue to pursue better treatments and resources for the future. We can and should do both.
I'm not understanding your concern. Their life is being taken by the illness anyway—euthanasia offers the patient autonomy and control over their death which is arguably more dignified (assuming they're competent).
And while you're busy reflecting people are suffering immensely. As a doctor im sure you know a dignified death is not always an option under natural causes.
Not even going to comment on the marijuana one because that's just the usual (completely debunked) slippery slope fallacy put forward by all the old folks around here who think they have all the answers.
It's bad to the point where there's a woman here who was helping terminally ill people pass away using gas because they have no other option.
May I ask your position on abortion? Because there's a lot of very important parallels between these 2 positions, more than most people consider. Your answer will help to inform a full response.
i cannot see any parallels between them.
I know this forum is "pro cannabis", but NZ made the correct decision.
Ive seen so many young people screwed up by it.
Perhaps your definition of comfort and the dying person's don't align.
But what about it screws them up about it in your estimation? At the very least decriminalising removes the legal penalties that can hold people back. And do correct me if I'm wrong because I may be talking out of my ass, but haven't studies shown that drug use doesn't actually rise significantly once it's decriminalised?
Instead of "helping" old people by killing them you could help them to want to live.
I mean in Canada its been legal for quite a while and ive heard barely any problems arise from it. Most people are really chill with it too, even those who used to be against it.
Good news - you're not allowed to suggest it
It has to come from the patient
Not the patients family
And if you suspect the patient is being pushed by the family or any other party you withdraw the ability to offer it
It's only for people who have been diagnosed as terminal and will die within 6 months (estimated)
And a bunch of other safeguards
Another thing ive noticed about cannabis being legal is the lack of stigma and fear of prosecution is very beneficial to people who end up using it problematically. Like people are way less afraid to get help when they need it and thats a really good thing imo.
if you can euthanaise for "non medical reasons" it's a possible pathway for legalised murder via coercion
When my father in law was dying last year I wish we had a euthanasia law here (uk) . In the 5 weeks from diagnosis he lost most of his body weight so I could lift him one handed, couldn't do anything for himself and the one thing he wanted was just to go as he didn't have any dignity anymore.
If he was an animal he wouldn't have been allowed to suffer so why should a person. Even the doctors that came in said the law wasn't helpful in situations like that.
Seeing him in that state made me realise there are worse things than death.
If he was an animal he wouldn't have been allowed to suffer so why should a person. Even the doctors that came in said the law wasn't helpful in situations like that.
Seeing him in that state made me realise there are worse things than death.
There's a bunch of conditions where life quality drains to a point where to some that's just not worth it even if they get the best care in the world.
A person should be able to decide "not worth it" in an environment that is controlled and has a bunch of safeguards.
Shame about not legalising marijuana, but I feel allowing euthanasia for medical reasons is a compassionate thing. If I knew I had several months of life left while every moment was agony and I would slowly deteriorate even further, I'd want a more peaceful and dignified way of going out. It would also give me control over my life in a terrible and terminal situation.
I'm actually confused at how the same people who are fine with others killing themselves won't legalize weed. I mean the hell?
Watched my 95 year old Granddad slowly kill himself in January / Feb and he begged us on many occasions to end his suffering. 4 years before that the same thing with my Nan.
I know it could open up a whole can of worms with coercion and what not but it's worth the risk.
Sadly the UK is far too backwards for anything like this.
I know it could open up a whole can of worms with coercion and what not but it's worth the risk.
Sadly the UK is far too backwards for anything like this.
Very mixed stuff, obviously passing euthanasia is very good to hear. I've seen so many people not enjoy the last years of their life and choosing to pass away in peace at a moment of their choosing is a human right.
It's weird that marijuana didn't pass, figured New Zealand would have legalised it already.
It's weird that marijuana didn't pass, figured New Zealand would have legalised it already.
I'd argue that what is needed is better palliative care and less of stigma against being reliant on help from other people.
And if "palliative care" isn't good enough and a person is suffering and losing everything that makes them human you're still going to be talking about "well you shouldn't be allowed to make that choice because we need better pain management?" Fuck that, im glad everyone I know voted yes.
Just some points i have. Please bear in mind, these are my views based on my experiences caring for my own patients.
Firstly, this is such a curly issue, non of the medical colleges supported it nor are they against it. Majority of GPs were not comfortable, nor were the psychiatrists. This could potentially make it hard for patients to access which could creat a market for "specialist in euthanasia clinics".
Then comes the issue of incentives and coercion. The decision rests with the doctors. No other legal or ethical authority is involved. That's a lot of power over a patient as well. There are no witnesses. How do we know patient's aren't coerced?
Secondly, just some problems with the legislation. It requires 2 doctors to agree that a patient has less than 6 months to live. In real practice, no one can predict how long a patient has. Most of the time we get it wrong, especially in the era of new immunotherapies. If the patient's primary doctor doesn't agree, he/she is obliged to handover the patient to another doctor who may not have the same rapport with the patient.
Depression and suicidal ideation is common amongst these patients, which is undertreated as well. We could probably do better at managing their depression. Suicide is so high already in our country. I'm worried this might normalise suicide.
This legislation is also vague and it may well get expanded. Age limits could come down, EPOAs could have that power and we could included advance directives.
But if society wants this, do we as a medial profession adapt and change our moral and ethical values?
Firstly, this is such a curly issue, non of the medical colleges supported it nor are they against it. Majority of GPs were not comfortable, nor were the psychiatrists. This could potentially make it hard for patients to access which could creat a market for "specialist in euthanasia clinics".
Then comes the issue of incentives and coercion. The decision rests with the doctors. No other legal or ethical authority is involved. That's a lot of power over a patient as well. There are no witnesses. How do we know patient's aren't coerced?
Secondly, just some problems with the legislation. It requires 2 doctors to agree that a patient has less than 6 months to live. In real practice, no one can predict how long a patient has. Most of the time we get it wrong, especially in the era of new immunotherapies. If the patient's primary doctor doesn't agree, he/she is obliged to handover the patient to another doctor who may not have the same rapport with the patient.
Depression and suicidal ideation is common amongst these patients, which is undertreated as well. We could probably do better at managing their depression. Suicide is so high already in our country. I'm worried this might normalise suicide.
This legislation is also vague and it may well get expanded. Age limits could come down, EPOAs could have that power and we could included advance directives.
But if society wants this, do we as a medial profession adapt and change our moral and ethical values?
They are parallel except one is a woman making a decision for a clump of tissue that isn't considered a person yet and the other is taking the life away from an actual person. I have no issues with abortion. I assisted in a few during my junior doctor years from the anaesthetic side. Euthanasia is different though. D
Both are needed.
There's just stuff that you can't soothe. I know mutiple people that have been in hospital for more than a third of the last 5 years, have professional care at home and still feel like shit and are in pain constantly. These people are in their 50's and 60's. There is no cure.
The psychological drain of having to live like is profound. And i don't see why an out being available without having to jump from a bridge is a bad thing.
Edit: not that this is an easy thing to legistlate. There's plenty of pitfalls and considerations against abuse and for the protection of the people needing to make descisions. But in principle, i think it should be an option.
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What does this mean?
As a doctor on the other side of the world this pretty much mirrors my view on this subject.
I would assume a proper legal framework will be drafted. This is ours:
Euthanasia in the Netherlands - Wikipedia
I can't imagine arguing in favor of forcing a suffering human being to stay alive against their wishes. I had close family with cancer and towards the end when the painkillers were no longer effective so hospice just gave them so much morphine that they were too out of it to beg for death, when the sores had that godawful cancer stink and their organs were starting to fail and all they wanted was to let go on their own terms but couldn't, I knew how fucked up the "keep them alive at all costs" principle really was.
