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Messofanego

Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,091
UK
*SPOILERS*

I thought the racial elements and real-life incidents the new Joker film alludes to (along with the class themes which is also surface level) haven't been picked up much in discussion of this film, so Richard Brody goes deeper into them in his review for the New Yorker. Worth reading in full.


Intensely racialised and white-washing
A group of teen-agers of color hassle him and steal his sign. He chases them into a garbage-strewn alley (the city is in the midst of an apocalyptic garbage strike), where one kid hits Arthur in the face with the sign and knocks him down. Then the whole group swarms him, pummels him, kicks him, and leaves him bruised and bleeding and sobbing, alone, in the filthy alley. The crime alluded to is the attack wrongly attributed to five young men mislabelled as the Central Park Five—an attack on an isolated and vulnerable white person by a group of young people of color. The scene waves away history and says, in effect, that it may not have been those five, but there was another group out there wreaking havoc; they're not figments of a demagogue's hate-filled imagination—here they are, and they're the spark of all the gory action that follows.​
...​
When Arthur is assaulted on the subway by three young men (whites, in suits), he pulls out the gun and fires—and even pursues one of the men onto the platform in order to shoot him dead. It's an evocation of the shooting, in 1984, by Bernhard Goetz, of four teen-agers in a subway who, Goetz believed, were about to rob him. They were four black teen-agers, and Goetz, after his arrest, made racist remarks. In "Joker," the director, Todd Phillips (who wrote the script with Scott Silver), whitewashes Goetz's attack, eliminating any racial motive and turning it into an act of self-defense gone out of control.​
...​
In between these two events, Arthur is seated on a city bus that's crowded with passengers. A child seated in front of him turns around, and Arthur playfully makes funny faces at him—at which the child's mother sharply orders Arthur to stop bothering her son. Mother and child are both black. The next day, Arthur, returning home (he has lost his job entertaining children at a hospital, because his gun fell out of his pocket), meets a neighbor, a woman named Sophie (Zazie Beetz); she, too, has a young child with her. The woman and the child are black. Arthur, who chats with Sophie for a moment, becomes obsessed with her and fantasizes about a romantic relationship with her. The nonexistence of any such relationship is among the agonies that torment him.​
One more: Arthur lives in a rundown building in an ill-tended neighborhood with his mother, Penny (Frances Conroy), who is disabled and whom he cares for. He is up late at night while his mother sleeps, watching a classic movie on television, "Shall We Dance," starring Fred Astaire and Ginger Rogers. The scene he's watching, a musical number, set to George and Ira Gershwin's "Slap That Bass," begins with a group of black men who are working in the (highly stylized) engine room of an ocean liner and singing and playing music while they work—they have a jazz band, and one man (Dudley Dickerson) sings the song (along with the riffing of co-workers as a chorus) before Astaire chimes in, with their accompaniment, and then starts dancing. While he's watching, Arthur begins to dance around the living room—gun in hand—when, in his careless enthusiasm, he pulls the trigger.​

Racially incoherent
"Joker" is an intensely racialized movie, a drama awash in racial iconography that is so prevalent in the film, so provocative, and so unexamined as to be bewildering. What it seems to be saying is utterly incoherent, beyond the suggestion that Arthur, who is mentally ill, becomes violent after being assaulted by a group of people of color—and he suffers callous behavior from one black woman, and believes that he's being ignored by another, and reacts with jubilation at the idea of being a glamorous white star amid a supporting cast of cheerful black laborers. But, unlike the public discourse around the Central Park Five, and unlike the case of Bernhard Goetz, and unlike the world, the discourse in "Joker" and the thought processes of Arthur Fleck are utterly devoid of any racial or social specificity.​
Yes, "Joker" takes place in a fictitious city, a comic-book world of fantasy—but it draws its incidents and its affect parasitically from real-world events that were both the product and the cause of racist discourse and attitudes and gave rise to real-world racist outcomes of enduring, even historic, gravity. The central events of "Joker" (and I'll try to allude to them sidelong, to avoid spoilers) are suggested by other real-world events, but here, too, Phillips voids them of their discourse and their substance. What results is more than the strenuous effort to contrive a story with resonant incidents and alluring details; "Joker" reflects political cowardice on the part of a filmmaker, and perhaps of a studio, in emptying out the specifics of the city's modern history and current American politics so that the movie can be released as mere entertainment to viewers who are exasperated with the idea of movies being discussed in political terms—i.e., to Republicans.​
...
The comic book 'Green Book'
Yet, for all the historical references in "Joker," it's a blatant and brazen distortion of the most substantial historical elements at which it winks. "Joker" is the comic-book "Green Book," twisting history for the sake of a yarn.​
...
Parodies
The movie's parodies of "Taxi Driver" and "The King of Comedy" are obvious; so are its pastiches of the designs and events of those movies' times. But the crucial parody, the crucial mockery, the work of which "Joker" comes off as a callously commercial imitation, is "Black Panther"—a comic-book-based movie that infuses its framework with rigorously conceived and boldly assertive political visions to go with its elaborate world-building. "Joker" is a wannabe movie that also wants to be all things to all viewers, that imitates the notion of adding substance while only subtracting it. "Joker" is a viewing experience of a rare, numbing emptiness.​
 
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Otherist

Member
Oct 27, 2017
871
England
Those two historical comparisons honestly seem like massive reaches, to the point of absurdity. I agree there is something unsatisfying about the film's weird fixation on black side characters combined with its total lack of interrogation of race, though.
 

Jarmel

The Jackrabbit Always Wins
Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,296
New York
That is such a garbage review that it's not really worth delving into. There is definitely a racial element to talk about in regards to the film but the opening being a reference to the Central Park 5???
 
Oct 26, 2017
1,439
FYI, this article you're apparently co-signing begins by comparing the Joker getting hit with a sign to the real life rape of a woman.

How badly did this film hurt you?
 

Dabanton

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,909
Joker has made some film critics really lose their shit.

Truly a skill of the clown prince of crime.
 

Border

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,859
Joker is a parody of Black Panther?

Some folks will say anything for the clicks.
 

Brewm0nt

Member
Dec 22, 2017
978
Orlando, FL
Yeah the two comparisons to real life events are pulled completely out of the author's ass. People really want there to be controversy with this film for some reason, and it shows.
 

Einchy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
42,659
MdZaYHu.gif
 

BUNTING1243

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,705
I have very little confidence in the idea that Todd Phillips knows who the Central Park Five are, much less enough to have a coherent opinion about them. It's a bland, politically gross movie, but more due to ignorance than anything else I think
 

Sanka

Banned
Feb 17, 2019
5,778
This movie is making a lot of people really emotional even tho they are saying it's absolutely atrocious and almost boring. Quite interesting.
 
Oct 26, 2017
1,439
Just to make an actual contribution, I think the opening is an homage to A Confederacy of Dunces, which is also about a troubled man living alone with his mother, and also involves the troubled man being made to dress outlandishly in public for work. Can't remember whether he actually gets attacked, but at one point, he does falsely claim to have been attacked.
 

Nightwing123

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,410
I think there is a conversation to be had on how PoC were portrayed in the film but this article is making a big reach. This movie is really making people lose their minds.
 

Dabanton

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,909
And it's been clear some critics have a bizarre agenda with this movie that goes beyond trying to get clicks.
 

ldcommando

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
2,480
yes, some punks beating up a clown in an alley is definetely alluding to the central park 5 case.

jesus christ
 

Keldroc

Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,976
Some of y'all really can't take the idea of this movie being analyzed in any way. Some of the article is a stretch (the Central Park 5 comparison is bizarre), but this:

The central events of "Joker" (and I'll try to allude to them sidelong, to avoid spoilers) are suggested by other real-world events, but here, too, Phillips voids them of their discourse and their substance. What results is more than the strenuous effort to contrive a story with resonant incidents and alluring details; "Joker" reflects political cowardice on the part of a filmmaker, and perhaps of a studio, in emptying out the specifics of the city's modern history and current American politics so that the movie can be released as mere entertainment to viewers who are exasperated with the idea of movies being discussed in political terms—i.e., to Republicans.

Is 100% bullseye. It's an empty, cowardly film, by design. The fact that anyone sees anything more than that in a Todd Phillips film is the inkblot test here, not the critics' reactions.
 

Baccus

Banned
Dec 4, 2018
5,307
But the crucial parody, the crucial mockery, the work of which "Joker" comes off as a callously commercial imitation, is "Black Panther"—a comic-book-based movie that infuses its framework with rigorously conceived and boldly assertive political visions to go with its elaborate world-building.
Aaand there it is. You can smell from here where this review comes from.
 

lacer

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,693
i definitely got Bernie Goetz vibes from that scene and the following folk-herodom. those are, uh, quite some extrapolations though. i'm not sure what this guy thinks "parody" means
 

Brinbe

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
58,032
Terana
the central park five thing is a reach for sure and does a disservice to the rest of his piece because he does make good points, namely how empty it all is. maybe that's the point though? do we think mr. hangover is capable of such designed subtlety?
 
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Stinkles

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
20,459
That central park five comparison is borderline offensive and basically undercuts and makes spurious any other point this "review" is trying to make.

He might well have a case to talk about how the movie handles race - and a smarter writer will probably be able to do so with the same scenes - but trying to cram them into a historical diorama is borderline ghoulish.

But starting off with a ludicrous reach just sullies the rest of it and makes him sound sort of vengeful rather than insightful.

It's a long time since I've seen a movie create quite so much effort in trying to not just dismiss it but attack and deliberately undermine it. It's extremely weird.

I don't care about this movie - or the Joker or DC or whatever other alliances it's supposed to support it encircle but the circus around it has been energetically toxic at a scale disproportionate to everything else about the film.
 

Voytek

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,800
I have problems with the movie but this guy is pulling a lot of shit from his ass.
 
Oct 26, 2017
10,499
UK
Aaand there it is. You can smell from here where this review comes from.

That Black Panther despite suffering from the traditional Marvel framework has far more meaningful things to say about it's themes than Joker despite the fact that it's not supposed to be seen as a comic book movie? Sounds pretty on point to me.

There are a lot of stretches in the piece, I'm not huge on how it's written (which I think the framing in the OP hurts even more), but there are some valid points in there.
 

Grug

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,644
Oh dear... such a reach.

The internet has given voice to people who really have nothing to say.
 

ZeroX

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
21,266
Speed Force
Massive reach.

The film has a pretty even ratio of shitty POCs to shitty white characters, and off the top of my head the (few) decent people in the movie are all minorities?
 
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