• Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.

Maple

Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,719
In the heart of Manhattan, national chains including J.C. Penney, Kate Spade, Subway and Le Pain Quotidien have shuttered branches for good. Many other large brands, like Victoria's Secret and the Gap, have kept their high-profile locations closed in Manhattan, while reopening in other states.

Michael Weinstein, the chief executive of Ark Restaurants, who owns Bryant Park Grill & Cafe and 19 other restaurants, said he will never open another restaurant in New York.

Of Ark Restaurants' five Manhattan restaurants, only two have reopened, while its properties in Florida — where the virus is far worse — have expanded outdoor seating with tents and tables into their parking lots, serving almost as many guests as they had indoors.

"There's no reason to do business in New York," Mr. Weinstein said. "I can do the same volume in Florida in the same square feet as I would have in New York, with my expenses being much less. The idea was that branding and locations were important, but the expense of being in this city has overtaken the marketing group that says you have to be there."

Even as the city has contained the virus and slowly reopens, there are ominous signs that some national brands are starting to abandon New York. The city is home to many flagship stores, chains and high-profile restaurants that tolerated astronomical rents and other costs because of New York's global cachet and the reliable onslaught of tourists and commuters.

But New York today looks nothing like it did just a few months ago.

In Manhattan's major retail corridors, from SoHo to Fifth Avenue to Madison Avenue, once packed sidewalks are now nearly empty. A fraction of the usual army of office workers goes into work every day, and many wealthy residents have left the city for second homes.
...

"In the prime real estate areas, all the stores rely on having half international tourists and half local tourists or those from the local neighborhoods," said Thiago Hueb, a founder of a jewelry company who had decided to close his flagship store on Madison Avenue before the pandemic struck because of high rents.

Now brokers are calling him trying to lure him back to the block, but Mr. Hueb, whose jewelry is sold in 80 department stores nationwide, is not interested.

"The avenue is no longer what it used to be," he said.

Some popular chains, like Shake Shack and Chipotle, report that their stores in New York were performing worse than others elsewhere, investment analysts said. A few dozen Subway locations have closed in New York City in recent months. Le Pain Quotidien has permanently closed several of its 27 stores in the city and plans to leave others closed until more people return to the streets, said Andrew Stern, co-chief executive of the chain's parent, Aurify Brands.

A Gap Store near Rockefeller Center has stayed closed and has not paid its $264,000 monthly rent. Two T.G.I. Friday's in prime locations, one near Rockefeller Center and another in Times Square, have remained closed while its restaurants elsewhere in the country have reopened.

Shake Shack reported on July 30 that it had experienced a 40 percent decline in revenue in the second quarter and that its stores in big cities like New York "were most impacted by the Covid-19 outbreak."

They eventually reopened to serve takeout and deliveries, but they did not rebound as well as the company's suburban locations that have drive-up windows where customers can avoid all but the briefest interaction, Ms. Regan said.
"The drive-through is the channel that consumers feel most comfortable with," she said.

Like Shake Shack, Chipotle told investors that its stores in the Northeast, including New York, were underperforming the rest of the chain, said Nick Setyan, an analyst with Wedbush Securities in Los Angeles.

The main reason. Mr. Setyan said, is that "people just aren't going to work" in much of Manhattan.

Sad to hear. I really hope this doesn't become the new normal in the city.


www.nytimes.com

Retail Chains Abandon Manhattan: ‘It’s Unsustainable’ (Published 2020)

Some national chains, both retail and restaurants, are closing outlets in New York City, which are struggling more than their branches elsewhere.
 

B-Dubs

That's some catch, that catch-22
General Manager
Oct 25, 2017
32,721
It'll bounce back eventually, I'm sure. Corona has done a real number on the city though and it's going to take a lot of time to recover.
 

The Albatross

Member
Oct 25, 2017
38,958
For chain restaurants it's pretty hard to compete. I mean, if you're in Times Square paying insane rent in some of the most expensive retail real estate in the world, it's a tough sell to get New Yorkers to come to Applebees, when there are a thousand restaurants within a 5 minute walk that are either better, cheaper, fancier, or some combination that Applebees can't support. When low-cost tourism dries up, as it is in an pandemic, it's going to put the pinch on those chains. A school trip to New York City might stop at Applebees because it's convenient to the tour, cheap, and has something for everybody, but when those dry up it's a tough sell.

In general, cities rebound better from financial crisis. They're usually hit first and initially hit hardest, with a deeper, faster sink, but then they usually recover earlier, and rebound further. This happened in the 2008 financial collapse, NYC was hit hard and fast, but by 2009 had already started to recover, while more suburban and rural places outside of the cities were hit a little later on as residual affects of the collapse got to them, and then were much slower to recover.
 

Curler

Member
Oct 26, 2017
15,596
Pre-COVID, I kept hearing about how places in SF were folding cause the lease pricing is just insane :/ Another way the virus has shown more vulnerabilities going on, and it's really not on the retail if anything, because I don't blame them with wanting prime locations that tourists would fill up.
 

entremet

You wouldn't toast a NES cartridge
Member
Oct 26, 2017
59,970
Many of these were money losing flagships that were basically marketing. But this is not good overall. NYC is looking like it will have a rough 2-3 years coming up. BdB has been horrible as well.
 

Curler

Member
Oct 26, 2017
15,596
You know, I don't really feel bad for these companies. Their presence has increased living costs and driven out local business.

The problem in this case, is that there's almost no chance even small businesses would be able to afford these locations, anyways. When even the big chains can't do it, that's a HUGE problem that's beyond a competition issue.
 

Deleted member 8752

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
10,122
I doubt it will ever be the same again. Residential property values are taking a beating too, (no one is buying in this environment) and rent is still too high for most people to afford.
 

Deleted member 11413

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
22,961
This is to be expected, NYC is the densest city in the US which means it was going to be hit extremely hard by Covid. Retail in general has taken massive hits from the pandemic
 

gerg

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,343
This is likely to be similar in many urban centres. The high-end businesses might be able to survive on the volume of luxury tourism that returns once the pandemic is over (if they don't go under before then), but a lot of chains and mid-range businesses will struggle if office staff don't return en masse, which is unlikely to happen.
 

Dyle

One Winged Slayer
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
29,903
Downtowns across the country are entering a new age of commercial real estate austerity, though this one will be tougher to solve than previous ones, as business isn't being taken by suburban developments but being shifted online away from brick and mortar locations entirely. It could offer an opportunity to restart and rethink commercial development but as per usual I'm sure most cities will miss that chance and struggle to adapt. And for every major chain like this there are hundreds of small businesses who are hurting even more, which makes it such a difficult challenge to address
 

Deleted member 8752

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
10,122
You know, I don't really feel bad for these companies. Their presence has increased living costs and driven out local business.
I mean, I agree with you to some extent. But the issue is that you're going to have a tremendous drain on NYC's economy to the point where property values for owners (not just landlords, but families too) are going to lose a tremendous amount of value in their investments.

I don't feel bad for the big businesses and real estate companies. But I do feel bad for the families who saved up years to buy a coop, only for this to happen and wipe out the value of their real estate investment.
 

Cantaim

Member
Oct 25, 2017
33,316
The Stussining
Rent prices were already obscene in NYC for prime spots and it was already hitting a boiling point a few years ago. I can definitely see Covid making dozens and dozens of stores close up shop indefinitely
 
Dec 12, 2017
3,000
The problem in this case, is that there's almost no chance even small businesses would be able to afford these locations, anyways. When even the big chains can't do it, that's a HUGE problem that's beyond a competition issue.
I think part of the problem is that chains are willing to pay these prices, which keeps local competition out of the picture and drives up rent. Now the chains are struggling because of covid and want to abandon ship. No sympathy from me.


I mean, I agree with you to some extent. But the issue is that you're going to have a tremendous drain on NYC's economy to the point where property values for owners (not just landlords, but families too) are going to lose a tremendous amount of value in their investments.

I don't feel bad for the big businesses and real estate companies. But I do feel bad for the families who saved up years to buy a coop, only for this to happen and wipe out the value of their real estate investment.
Agreed. I'm specifically talking about the corporations in this case.
 

Darknight

"I'd buy that for a dollar!"
Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,798
I wonder if this could be a start to rein in the crazy rent prices.

Nah. It'll be a minor bump before it recovers. Anything that gets vacated will just be filled in with people seeking opportunity to fill in that void and rents will still be crazy because there will be demand to be there.
 

Curler

Member
Oct 26, 2017
15,596
I think part of the problem is that chains are willing to pay these prices, which keeps local competition out of the picture and drives up rent. Now the chains are struggling because of covid and want to abandon ship. No sympathy from me.

The rents being high are on so many other variables, considering prices people will pay to live in the area and the other companies/offices also located there. I relate it a lot to SF's situation, because while they do have a huge presence of small businesses throughout the city, their touristy parts do have those large chains, and the city in itself is just expensive to do business with, unless these small businesses do something unique, and get the loyal customer-base to keep them running.

Sure, I would love to see a bigger presence of small businesses taking place, while still seeing big names among them too (tourists etc. love going to places of familiarity, as it is) but there's just so much going on with the cities that isn't just major retailers creating all of the problems. It's... such a tough issue to tackle :/
 

Richiek

Member
Nov 2, 2017
12,063
Hopefully, this will result in property values in Manhattan go down, resulting in more mom an pop type businesses setting up shop instead of the big chains.
 

Woylie

Member
May 9, 2018
1,849
Yeah, I don't feel super bad for Chipotle or other chains. Hopefully once things settle down in a post-vaccine world, new local businesses will be able to emerge. I feel bad for all of the small local places that have had to permanently shut down during all of this, though. NYC's definitely going to look very different for a while, even after covid becomes relatively under control.
 

B-Dubs

That's some catch, that catch-22
General Manager
Oct 25, 2017
32,721
Yeah, I don't feel super bad for Chipotle or other chains. Hopefully once things settle down in a post-vaccine world, new local businesses will be able to emerge. I feel bad for all of the small local places that have had to permanently shut down during all of this, though. NYC's definitely going to look very different for a while, even after covid becomes relatively under control.
Problem is local businesses and restaurants are suffering worse.
 

chaostrophy

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,378
8976844-large.jpg
 

mightynine

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,147
Nah. It'll be a minor bump before it recovers. Anything that gets vacated will just be filled in with people seeking opportunity to fill in that void and rents will still be crazy because there will be demand to be there.

Going to need tourists and workers back first to drive that demand, and I'm not sure either will be returning quickly.
 

MetatronM

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,851
Even before the virus I never really understood how anybody affords street level retail rent in Manhattan.
 

Ottaro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,524
I always kind of just assume large chains in areas that expensive don't actually turn a profit but exist mostly as advertising to visitors.
 

entremet

You wouldn't toast a NES cartridge
Member
Oct 26, 2017
59,970
I've heard many stories of smaller businesses going out of business. Landlords would not even renegotiate rents or anything. They'd rather not have anyone than negotiate with a loyal client.

Commercial landlords in NYC are scum.
 

Darknight

"I'd buy that for a dollar!"
Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,798
Going to need tourists and workers back first to drive that demand, and I'm not sure either will be returning quickly.

Manhattan is going to recover a lot quicker than most of the US. So while there is a bump in the road with probably rent for the short term, nothing is going to really fix the crazy rent in the long term.
 

captmcblack

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,059
I mean...just lower the rent?

Or better yet, let smaller mom-and-pop shit have that space like they used to and create cool new products/trends like every other epoch in the city's history? I don't give a fuck that the GAP and Duane Reade and Starbucks or Neiman Marcus doesn't want to pay 900k rent in an online shopping universe. Maybe they shouldn't hold infinite spots in the city, and other things can fill those spaces if they don't cost 900k/month.
 

entremet

You wouldn't toast a NES cartridge
Member
Oct 26, 2017
59,970
I mean...just lower the rent?

Or better yet, let smaller mom-and-pop shit have that space like they used to and create cool new products/trends like every other epoch in the city's history?
Mom and Pops were wiped out.

www.nytimes.com

One-Third of New York’s Small Businesses May Be Gone Forever (Published 2020)

Small-business owners said they have exhausted federal and local assistance and see no end in sight after months of sharp revenue drops. Now, many are closing their shops and restaurants for good.
 
Oct 27, 2017
42,700
Lol, well good job commercial property landlords. You kept raising rents and you've pushed out the only chains that could actually afford them
 

captmcblack

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,059
Hopefully new mom and pops will take the opportunity to set up shop in NYC when COVID is resolved, then. They currently can't operate because they can't pay rent, they can't get sales without tourists and workers...being tourists and working, and also there's a crazy virus so you can't even have people inside doing/buying shit.

The solution is very clear - lower the rent.
 

Hu3

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,575
I hope this moderates the fucking rent in the city this shit is unsustainable. I been thinking of moving out of New York for months now. Been here for years, but everyday that passes it's less and less attractive to me.
 

Starmud

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,443
until travel/spending really returns it dosent make sense, but overall theres been retailers to see less value in having their name parked in these tourist traps.... many of these are just branding/marketing showcases regardless of how much income they really produce.
 

Antrax

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,270
You know, I don't really feel bad for these companies. Their presence has increased living costs and driven out local business.

It would take a huge price reduction for a mom and pop place to afford $264K a month. That's just insane to me.

And even if rent goes down, presumably there was some tax level set for the value of that property. If that value goes down, govt needs to compensate for the significant drop in tax revenue.

Even before the virus I never really understood how anybody affords street level retail rent in Manhattan.

Seriously, how does anybody secure the business loan for that? The price mentioned in the article for one place is three million a year, just in rent.
 

El_TigroX

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,208
New York, NY
City has to lower taxes to get a decent lowering of rents/rates by the landlords... has to be a coordinated effort. And then, that takes the State to help out... it's a long shot.

I'm just saddened to see the place start to fall apart - around my office, pretty much everything is gone.

I've said I always wished I got to see NYC in the 80s... and looks like I'm about to!
 

NullPointer

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,172
Mars
Covid is just exposing how unsustainable these big cities already were. Its only been a matter of when things would go bust, not if.

Living in San Francisco, there is no going back to the old normal, as the old normal was bursting at the seams already. Covid is the great accelerant, and these affordability issues are something Democrats haven't been able to solve. Not even close.
 

samoyed

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
15,191
I'm actually in favor of this as their ability to stomach NYC rents is part of what sustains NYC rents. So I'm not going to miss them in the long run. NYC real estate was never really sustainable, it just took a crisis to get people to admit it.

They could afford street retail solely because they had big coffers to funnel money into the city with, then they extracted brand awareness or whatever to set up shop in a cheaper city and attract customers looking for an affordable pseudo-NYC experience. Smaller businesses don't get to leverage brand presence like this so all except the most famous independant spots eventually disappeared from places like Times Square.

Now, East Village's food variety is what I'm really worried about. Or Greenwich.
 
Last edited: