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thisismadness

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,447
What? They do know how to make that device, just not cheaply. That someone else will have to charge more to do it because they're not better than these companies at making hardware cheap and they won't be making royalties to the degree existing consoles are. If that price is too high for consumers, then yes it will cease to exist.

I'll say it again: A console at the price the market bears will continue to be made. period. That will not cease to exist. If Sony/MS are incapable of doing it then someone else will step in because there is, obviously, incredible consumer demand for such devices. I believe Sony/MS/Nintendo will continue to do it because being a platform holder still has huge advantages. And like I told the other guy, no one is losing much money on these boxes.
 

Skytylz

Member
Oct 25, 2017
780
Google is the biggest competitor with Amazon in that space. MS is in data mining (but Amazon is furious to have lost the gov surveillance contracts to MS. CORRECTION: Apparently today Amazon actually won back the NSA contract. EDIT: it's actually 1 and 1 https://www.theverge.com/2021/8/10/22618764/nsa-10-billion-microsoft-aws-cloud-services-protest) But Amazon really is unavoidable. Here's a pretty good story on that: https://gizmodo.com/i-tried-to-block-amazon-from-my-life-it-was-impossible-1830565336
Azure is huge dude, everything I could find seemed like it was significantly bigger than Google cloud. I'm guessing a lot of stuff you use, just like that article for AWS, uses Azure.
 

Oregano

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,878
We (especially true in a gaming forum) identify/align/stan with a product/brand over the community at large. Same is true with sports, music, movies etc. We want to belong and be part of the it crowd.

That said, an open platform is not necessarily the best outcome for every user. On the aggregate, I don't think we, the user/consumer, will see much of a benefit from it. In the context of smart phones/devices.

IMO one of the most notable arguments that came up in the Epic v Apple case was the argument that consumers routinely choose walled garden ecosystems even when open alternatives exist(like consoles vs PC or even iOS vs Android) and that it could be argued that by outlawing walled gardens that could actually take away consumer choice.
 

Skytylz

Member
Oct 25, 2017
780
Sucks to be Spotify. If you don't want to pay the fee then don't put your service on iOS. I'd argue the market will correct such things. If everyone pulls their apps/services off of iOS because they don't want to pay the percentage, eventually it will affect iPhone sales. People will migrate to a different platform. If Apple starts blocking competitors from even releasing apps on iOS it will, at some point, affect sales and they will lose users.
Broke: Switch music streaming service since it doesn't work on my iPhone anymore
Woke: Buying a new $800 device so I can keep using spotify.
You really think people just wouldn't drop spotify?
 

collige

Member
Oct 31, 2017
12,772
And at the end of the day, being able to listen to Spotify on your mobile phone is not an essential part of life. There's no need for the government to step in and say, "Well, Apple, you're really not being fair to Spotify. We are now going to tell you what you can and can do with the platform you've created and invested billions of dollars into while creating and cultivating it."
That's literally the definition of anti-competitive behavior though. If the App Store is indeed a platform and not just a way for Apple to distribute their own apps, then they should expect competition in the industries that their apps operate in.

Sucks to be Spotify. If you don't want to pay the fee then don't put your service on iOS. I'd argue the market will correct such things. If everyone pulls their apps/services off of iOS because they don't want to pay the percentage, eventually it will affect iPhone sales. People will migrate to a different platform. If Apple starts blocking competitors from even releasing apps on iOS it will, at some point, affect sales and they will lose users.
If Spotify pulls their app off iOS then Apple has a de facto monopoly on streaming services.
 

YohraUtopia

Member
Apr 1, 2021
1,137
What? Azure is literally second biggest cloud out there.
Yes, you are right. That was total brain fart as the conversation is focused on the other companies.

I'm not sure why you're saying AWS is not the issue though; that is why it's impossible to avoid Amazon. In some geographies additionally, Amazon has used loss-leading financing to become the only market and employer (hence bringing up monopsony before) but that is somewhat different.
 

Gay Bowser

Member
Oct 30, 2017
17,708
If Apple like, banned Spotify from the App Store, that absolutely would get them in regulatory hot water immediately. They haven't done that and probably aren't ever going to, though, so I'm not really sure why we're discussing it.
 

mpak

Alt Account
Banned
Jul 5, 2021
762
I'm not sure why you're saying AWS is not the issue though; that is why it's impossible to avoid Amazon. In some geographies additionally, Amazon has used loss-leading financing to become the only market and employer (hence bringing up monopsony before) but that is somewhat different.
Because it has nothing to do with what anti-trust is concerned about. By the same logic you cannot avoid cable companies and ISP. Also energy providers.
 

YohraUtopia

Member
Apr 1, 2021
1,137
It is literally what anti-trust is about. Over the course of like 5 decades or so anti-trust law was rewritten to be about competitive pricing but this whole effort is part of correcting that rather bizarre reinterpretation back towards market share. Classic anti-trust is exactly that. You can't avoid the phone company, so they get broken up. Even a "natural" monopoly could be busted or nationalized, or what not, in the ordinary sense.
 

bruhaha

Banned
Jun 13, 2018
4,122
I'll say it again: A console at the price the market bears will continue to be made. period. That will not cease to exist. If Sony/MS are incapable of doing it then someone else will step in because there is, obviously, incredible consumer demand for such devices. I believe Sony/MS/Nintendo will continue to do it because being a platform holder still has huge advantages. And like I told the other guy, no one is losing much money on these boxes.

You can't defy the basic laws of economics by just ignoring one side of the equation. Repeating things and saying period doesn't make an argument more convincing. If it's easy to do what you propose, a PC set-top box would exist already in the market at that price point. Heck, Valve even tried and failed. One doesn't exist because of the inherent pricing advantages console makers currently have that will be diminished if they can no longer demand royalties.
 

StereoVSN

Member
Nov 1, 2017
13,620
Eastern US
It's unfortunate that this will kill security posture on Apple devices. I basically always recommend / buy iPhone/ iPad for family since supporting them on Android wasn't quite feasible. So meh from that I guess.

I fear there will be some seriously unintended consequences from such a bill.

Personally I use Android, but even there at least Google can monitor transactions/subscriptions. Going through bunch if different payment systems will be a cluster.
 

mikehaggar

Developer at Pixel Arc Studios
Verified
Oct 26, 2017
1,379
Harrisburg, Pa
Broke: Switch music streaming service since it doesn't work on my iPhone anymore
Woke: Buying a new $800 device so I can keep using spotify.
You really think people just wouldn't drop spotify?

Again, sucks to be Spotify.

That's literally the definition of anti-competitive behavior though. If the App Store is indeed a platform and not just a way for Apple to distribute their own apps, then they should expect competition in the industries that their apps operate in.


If Spotify pulls their app off iOS then Apple has a de facto monopoly on streaming services.

Apple has a monopoly regarding music streaming services ON THEIR PLATFORM. Which I think is fine. They invested billions to create and cultivate said platform. They should be able to do whatever they want with it. Its not public domain. And if it is, and all platforms going forward are going to be, then what is the motivation to invest billions into creating a new one?
 

Gay Bowser

Member
Oct 30, 2017
17,708
Apple has a monopoly regarding music streaming services ON THEIR PLATFORM. Which I think is fine.
They…don't, though? Spotify, Amazon Music, Tidal, Napster etc. all exist. Even Groove Music existed on iOS when that was a thing. I think Spotify still has more users on iOS than Apple's own streaming service does.

I agree with some of your points but you're making a really weird point here. I don't really know where you're going with this. Apple banning every other music streaming service from the App Store would absolutely get them in major legal hot water, which is why they haven't done that and never will.
 

Trup1aya

Literally a train safety expert
Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,369
Cool idea, I'm sure tech companies will pay off enough politicians to keep it from happening though.

my company iPhone has access to 3rd party stores- and it makes the device so much more useful than it would be limited to Apple store bullshit. All users should be able to do this, not just corporations.

If done correctly, I don't think this would harm the one-stop-shop environment for users that prefer it.
 
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aevanhoe

Slayer of the Eternal Voidslurper
Member
Aug 28, 2018
7,329
For all of you who think this is a good idea: once sideloading is technically possible - you know you'll be forced to use it one way or the other. Maybe your job will demand it. Maybe you'll have to use an app like Facebook (and you just know they'll leave the app store and any Apple control) to communicate with your family or follow your kids' school group. Maybe it will be peer pressure from your friends. But you'll have them sooner or later.

And then security, privacy, stability, performance, etc. will become just a bit worse. If not a lot worse. I actually like there is a wall there, even if I don't always agree with Apple, I like that feeling of safety and security.

I for one don't want this option on my iPhone. And before you say "you don't have to use it" - read what I wrote in the first paragraph.
 

collige

Member
Oct 31, 2017
12,772
Apple has a monopoly regarding music streaming services ON THEIR PLATFORM. Which I think is fine. They invested billions to create and cultivate said platform. They should be able to do whatever they want with it. Its not public domain. And if it is, and all platforms going forward are going to be, then what is the motivation to invest billions into creating a new one?
Their platform is a duopoly of the mobile market, which is a big deal since being able to listen to music on the go has been a killer feature for longer than I've been alive. The issue isn't just that their invested into iOS and built it up, it's that they're using the unique position they've built to give themselves a favorable position in an unrelated industry.
 

Kill3r7

Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,446
IMO one of the most notable arguments that came up in the Epic v Apple case was the argument that consumers routinely choose walled garden ecosystems even when open alternatives exist(like consoles vs PC or even iOS vs Android) and that it could be argued that by outlawing walled gardens that could actually take away consumer choice.

The government can regulate markets anyway they see fit as long as they are not violating the constitution. This bill is going nowhere.
 

Vagabond

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,327
United States
I would love to see it happen. Imagine if OtherOS makes a return on PS5!

For Apple it is long overdue. I might even consider switching back to iOS if it happens.
 

HorseFD

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,025
Melbourne
That would be great. It is already possible to install any app you like on iOS by signing the certificate yourself, but it is annoying that it only lasts for 7 days before needing to be renewed (unless you're a paid dev). Considering it's already something you can do, Apple wouldn't lose that much by allowing third party stores and just turning it off by default so the majority of users never see it.
 

sangreal

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,890
For all of you who think this is a good idea: once sideloading is technically possible - you know you'll be forced to use it one way or the other. Maybe your job will demand it. Maybe you'll have to use an app like Facebook (and you just know they'll leave the app store and any Apple control) to communicate with your family or follow your kids' school group. Maybe it will be peer pressure from your friends. But you'll have them sooner or later.

And then security, privacy, stability, performance, etc. will become just a bit worse. If not a lot worse. I actually like there is a wall there, even if I don't always agree with Apple, I like that feeling of safety and security.

I for one don't want this option on my iPhone. And before you say "you don't have to use it" - read what I wrote in the first paragraph.
Your job can already demand you sideload apps on your iphone.
 

Katmeister

Banned
May 1, 2021
2,434
It's really not. The competition this bill seeks to create already exists on an ecosystem level. You want open go android. You want closed go Apple. But there are obvious ways around this. Like Apple could create like an OpenOS that gives you freedom with none of their support. I'm talking zero. No Apple care no anything. You make the choice between iOS and the open one upon device activation.

Apple has better App support than android. I started using Android and I only switched to iOS so I could play the games I couldn't get on Android. So it's not like I had a real choice. Now I'm stuck in their ecosystem, I can't switch without losing access to my shit. But you won't abide an optional unlock that lets you side-load stuff?
 

Katmeister

Banned
May 1, 2021
2,434
For all of you who think this is a good idea: once sideloading is technically possible - you know you'll be forced to use it one way or the other. Maybe your job will demand it. Maybe you'll have to use an app like Facebook (and you just know they'll leave the app store and any Apple control) to communicate with your family or follow your kids' school group. Maybe it will be peer pressure from your friends. But you'll have them sooner or later.

And then security, privacy, stability, performance, etc. will become just a bit worse. If not a lot worse. I actually like there is a wall there, even if I don't always agree with Apple, I like that feeling of safety and security.

I for one don't want this option on my iPhone. And before you say "you don't have to use it" - read what I wrote in the first paragraph.

This is just slippery slope bullshit fear mongering. Facebook ain't leaving the Apple store, they're on fucking google play. I can get an app for windows 10.
 

jwhit28

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,052
For all of you who think this is a good idea: once sideloading is technically possible - you know you'll be forced to use it one way or the other. Maybe your job will demand it. Maybe you'll have to use an app like Facebook (and you just know they'll leave the app store and any Apple control) to communicate with your family or follow your kids' school group. Maybe it will be peer pressure from your friends. But you'll have them sooner or later.

And then security, privacy, stability, performance, etc. will become just a bit worse. If not a lot worse. I actually like there is a wall there, even if I don't always agree with Apple, I like that feeling of safety and security.

I for one don't want this option on my iPhone. And before you say "you don't have to use it" - read what I wrote in the first paragraph.
developer.apple.com

Apple Developer Enterprise Program

The Apple Developer Enterprise Program allows large organizations to develop and deploy proprietary, internal-use apps to their employees.
 

mikehaggar

Developer at Pixel Arc Studios
Verified
Oct 26, 2017
1,379
Harrisburg, Pa
They…don't, though? Spotify, Amazon Music, Tidal, Napster etc. all exist. Even Groove Music existed on iOS when that was a thing. I think Spotify still has more users on iOS than Apple's own streaming service does.

I agree with some of your points but you're making a really weird point here. I don't really know where you're going with this. Apple banning every other music streaming service from the App Store would absolutely get them in major legal hot water, which is why they haven't done that and never will.

I was responding to your comment saying "If Spotify pulls their app off iOS then Apple has a de facto monopoly on streaming services." My response is yes, they do, on their platform. Which I personally think is OK.

I'm not trying to say that I'm right. This is just my opinion and how I see this. Again, I think a company should be able to do whatever they want with their platform without government intervention.
 

8byte

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt-account
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
9,880
Kansas
Apple already gives (or sells, I'd have to check) like 90% of the data the state wants to it. They do not give a shit about your privacy. Most of these companies are currently competing to be the principle data conduit to the government already. This whole argument is borderline conspiracy nonsense. It's extremely rare for the US gov to move against big multinationals in any sector. As I explained in my long previous comment, there are some malicious intents bundled in here for sure regarding national interest, political maneuvering, etc. but nothing like what you're talking about. The intent of the bill is ordinary and plain as day; it's an anti-trust bill. You may not like anti-trust legislation and think that in itself is malicious but then make that argument.
Oh come on, this is disingenuous (that Apple doesn't give a shit about privacy). Also, please don't try to paint me as a conspiracy theorist, it's insulting, disrespectful, and completely out of line.

The number you're citing (90%) applies to requests from the state to Apple for account details. It was some 3,500+ requests (not individual accounts), I want to say? What you're missing, however, is that they are requests, and they are not all accommodated. From what I understand, this data is typically account information (that's ambiguous, so who knows what that means) and occasionally iCloud content. The total number of accounts requested (per the data you're citing) is some 15K I want to say?

What you're missing, however, is that the US Government has been asking for / looking for a tool to unlock and decrypt any iPhone for a long time now. Apple will not comply. I'm not saying this legislation exists exclusively for this reason, but the implications are pretty clear, and our intelligence agencies absolutely would seek to take advantage of those opportunities to develop such tools, or find ways to exploit loop holes to gain access to data without permission.

Yes, Apple gives some data to the Government when requested, but so far as we know (and we could be being lied to by Apple or other parties involved) that data is predominantly account data (emails, names, addresses). I'm not even trying to defend Apple here, before that comes into play, I'm simply speaking to the information that you're citing, and the information we were provided (as well as some context clues from previous Government actions and requests for such tools).
 

TheChrisGlass

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,606
Los Angeles, CA
I was responding to your comment saying "If Spotify pulls their app off iOS then Apple has a de facto monopoly on streaming services." My response is yes, they do, on their platform. Which I personally think is OK.

I'm not trying to say that I'm right. This is just my opinion and how I see this. Again, I think a company should be able to do whatever they want with their platform without government intervention.
Except we have laws about that, especially when they become tools for business use.
 

riotous

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,341
Seattle
They failed to define what a "General Purpose Computing Device" is..

Seems like a bit of a miss there.

Does the playstation app store have 50 million US customers?
 

Mastermind

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
490
Yeah, I'd rather this didn't pass. I know what I signed up for with Apple and I want it to stay that way. Download an App Store on Android if you want more freedom.
 

Lobster Roll

signature-less, now and forever
Member
Sep 24, 2019
34,381
Wonder how many V-Buckz ol' Sweeney slipped to some senators. At least enough to buy the Ariana Grande bundle, I imagine.
 

Mastermind

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
490
I was responding to your comment saying "If Spotify pulls their app off iOS then Apple has a de facto monopoly on streaming services." My response is yes, they do, on their platform. Which I personally think is OK.

I'm not trying to say that I'm right. This is just my opinion and how I see this. Again, I think a company should be able to do whatever they want with their platform without government intervention.
I actually agree with you. When Apple has invested so much capital into building up the platform and audience for it, then I believe that they should have some level of control over how services are distributed through it. I don't believe a third party should ever be entitled to an ecosytem that they didn't build or maintain.
 

jwhit28

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,052
I actually agree with you. When Apple has invested so much capital into building up the platform and audience for it, then I believe that they should have some level of control over how services are distributed through it. I don't believe a third party should ever be entitled to an ecosytem that they didn't build or maintain.
Then what does that do to the market outside of those ecosystems? Why would anyone choose another music service if when they search a store Apple's will always be recommended first? Apple automatically deserves the largest music streaming service because they built the most popular phone?
 

riotous

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,341
Seattle
This law is just entirely too vague in many ways particularly since it adds the "Well you dont have to follow these things if it violates user privacy/security/etc."

So you have to allow apps to just have any payment processor they want, and somehow also protect their security/privacy/prevent fraud?

How exactly is that going to work, since you have to let apps use any payment processor.. how in the world does that not immediately become defunct since it can easily be shown that makes it really difficult to prevent fraud?
 

Mastermind

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
490
Then what does that do to the market outside of those ecosystems? Why would anyone choose another music service if when they search a store Apple's will always be recommended first? Apple automatically deserves the largest music streaming service because they built the most popular phone?
But they don't have the largest ecosystem and they don't have the largest music streaming service.
 

GoldenFlex

Alt Account
Banned
May 7, 2021
2,900
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Pwnz

Member
Oct 28, 2017
14,279
Places
Beyond overdue. I don't know what it is about these companies but they can be so incredibly anticonsumer and shamelessly take in billions of undeserved revenue and people will cheerlead them. It's appalling.