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Moi_85

Member
Nov 26, 2018
68
https://twitter.com/NintendoAmerica/status/1103460256263430144

Nintendo Labo VR Kit announced

I suppose that the sellings of the kit will decide how will be Switch V2.

If Nintendo see interest on the VR, then, Switch V2 needs a 1080p display, sensors on the Switch (now are the Joy-Cons the sensors), ¿maybe infrared emitter on the dock? (now one Joy-Con has IR camera), and the power of the current dock Switch on handheld maybe will be not enough.

But I know, that sounds excessive expensive (cheaper that a dedicated VR experience, but excessive expensive for a portable console)

Mmmmm....
 

MP!

Member
Oct 30, 2017
5,198
Las Vegas
RedCrabWhiteBackground.jpg.653x0_q80_crop-smart.jpg
giphy.gif
 

Deguello

Banned
Jan 14, 2019
269
IMO the announcement of the VR kit puts the kibosh on any kind of smaller unit with attached controls, unless they make a second version of Labo VR for the smaller Switch screen, which is preeetty close to the thing we were all hoping to avoid with a Switch Pro, being the release of incompatible games between the two versions, not to mention having to purchase the Additional joy-cons to use VR on this Switch Lite, somewhat negating the idea of it being cheaper to begin with.
 

SpottieO

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,600
IMO the announcement of the VR kit puts the kibosh on any kind of smaller unit with attached controls, unless they make a second version of Labo VR for the smaller Switch screen, which is preeetty close to the thing we were all hoping to avoid with a Switch Pro, being the release of incompatible games between the two versions, not to mention having to purchase the Additional joy-cons to use VR on this Switch Lite, somewhat negating the idea of it being cheaper to begin with.
Yeah I think VR Labo confirms that whatever form factor the next Switch iteration takes it won't be smaller. I'm still pulling for a Pro version.
 

Deleted member 2791

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
19,054
glad we can definitely put away the nonsensical idea that there'll ever be a switch without separate joycons
 
Oct 27, 2017
5,618
Spain
https://twitter.com/NintendoAmerica/status/1103460256263430144

Nintendo Labo VR Kit announced

I suppose that the sellings of the kit will decide how will be Switch V2.

If Nintendo see interest on the VR, then, Switch V2 needs a 1080p display, sensors on the Switch (now are the Joy-Cons the sensors), ¿maybe infrared emitter on the dock? (now one Joy-Con has IR camera), and the power of the current dock Switch on handheld maybe will be not enough.

But I know, that sounds excessive expensive (cheaper that a dedicated VR experience, but excessive expensive for a portable console)

Mmmmm....
The Switch has sensors inside. If you can put up with the low screen resolution, it's VR ready. Another of the wonders of the form factor imo.
 

ShadowFox08

Banned
Nov 25, 2017
3,524
You guys heard about Google chrome allowing switch controller support, and that gdc conference with a potential console reveal for Google.

Fun to think about, but it would be interesting if Google teamed up with Nintendo to make a home hardware console. That GTX 1660 turing using a 5TFLOPs and DDR5 ram would have been nice, though the GPU is $219.
 

Thraktor

Member
Oct 25, 2017
570
I think $300 is feasible. If we're Q419 or Q120, I think we're 10/12nm instead of 7nm. I think if we're taking Thraktor 's statement into account, then we should be looking at A73 instead of A75 or A76. I don't know how much LPDDR4 or 4x costs. The best guess is $40-$80 depending on type and speed. I really wish I had a better number for this. As far as memory bandwidth, I think if we're talking 12nm, we're probably on Xavier (probably easier to modify a 12nm design than modify and shrink a 20nm design) and according to wikipedia Xavier has 137 GB/s of memory bandwidth.

Sorry this is so discombobulated.

If were talking Q420, then we're probably safe talking about 7nm.

The CPU choice is actually kind of interesting. ARM splits their cores into high-performance and high-efficiency designs, but for a portable console you actually want something in the middle, that can provide as much performance in as possible in a fixed power budget. Going from A57 to A72 to A73 there's definite improvements for a use case like Nintendo's. The A72 is an updated version of the A57 design (itself based on the 32-bit A15 core) which improves in pretty much every aspect, as it's more powerful, more power-efficient, and takes up less die space (ie it's cheaper).

The A73 is actually an evolution of the 32-bit A17 core, and it's quite a different approach to the A57/A72, with a shorter pipeline and narrower front-end. This leads to a smaller, more power-efficient core. It's actually about 35% smaller than the A57 on the same process, and a 12nm implementation could be less than half the size of the A57s on the 20nm TX1.

The A75 is a revision of the A73 based on improving peak performance, and ARM didn't actually claim any efficiency improvement over the A73 (which holds up in real-world testing, as the Snapdragon 835 and 845, running A73 and A75 core respectively both on 10nm processes put in pretty similar power efficiency figures). For a new Switch, this increased peak performance wouldn't make much difference, as Nintendo wouldn't have the power budget to hit A73's limits anyway. It's possible that the A75 is close enough in die area to the A73 that it's worth using the newer version anyway, but I wouldn't expect any meaningful difference in performance between the two in a fixed power budget.

The A76 is a more interesting one, as it's a completely new core design, and in actual products, it's a big improvement in both performance and power efficiency over older A75-based designs. The problem is that these new SoCs are built on a 7nm process against 10nm for their A75 predecessors, so it's very difficult to tell if the efficiency improvements are all from the process change, or if there's some gains from the architecture, too. ARM themselves don't make any ISO-process efficiency claims (like they did for the A72 and A73), so I would assume they took the efficiency win from 7nm and focused on performance.

So the reality is that using the A73 or A75 or A76 probably won't make much difference to Nintendo if they're limited to ~500mW per core, so they may as well go with the smallest (ie cheapest) core, which is the A73.

There is one other factor, though, which is Nvidia. For the first Switch model Nintendo used an off-the-shelf SoC designed by Nvidia, and although there isn't an off-the-shelf option for them now, and I'd wager good money on Mariko being designed primarily for Nintendo, there's a possibility it's not designed entirely for Nintendo. They may have entered a deal where Nvidia can sell on the Mariko chip to other customers (let's say they want to make a play at the Windows on ARM market), and in that case Nvidia would want an SoC with those higher peak performance levels you get from the A75 or A76.
 

ILikeFeet

DF Deet Master
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
61,987
with the rumors going around that the next hardware update is more a Switch Lite, I'm curious if we're even going to see a hardware change in the SoC or a mere die shrink of the X1.

however, my issue with the idea of a "Switch Lite" is that there's going to be a lot of wasted potential if there's no actual performance update. I get moving to a cheaper process, but to let the hardware linger with it's current clocks doesn't make too much sense if they're still going to put out a Pro in the future (which rumors also state currently exists). what I'm saying is, it would make more sense to either shrink the X1 and boost the clocks, or use newer hardware (with better performance).

of course, Nintendo could always just choose to keep everything the same and boast about the 5 hour battery life while playing Zelda
 

Deguello

Banned
Jan 14, 2019
269
The CPU choice is actually kind of interesting. ARM splits their cores into high-performance and high-efficiency designs, but for a portable console you actually want something in the middle, that can provide as much performance in as possible in a fixed power budget. Going from A57 to A72 to A73 there's definite improvements for a use case like Nintendo's. The A72 is an updated version of the A57 design (itself based on the 32-bit A15 core) which improves in pretty much every aspect, as it's more powerful, more power-efficient, and takes up less die space (ie it's cheaper).

The A73 is actually an evolution of the 32-bit A17 core, and it's quite a different approach to the A57/A72, with a shorter pipeline and narrower front-end. This leads to a smaller, more power-efficient core. It's actually about 35% smaller than the A57 on the same process, and a 12nm implementation could be less than half the size of the A57s on the 20nm TX1.

The A75 is a revision of the A73 based on improving peak performance, and ARM didn't actually claim any efficiency improvement over the A73 (which holds up in real-world testing, as the Snapdragon 835 and 845, running A73 and A75 core respectively both on 10nm processes put in pretty similar power efficiency figures). For a new Switch, this increased peak performance wouldn't make much difference, as Nintendo wouldn't have the power budget to hit A73's limits anyway. It's possible that the A75 is close enough in die area to the A73 that it's worth using the newer version anyway, but I wouldn't expect any meaningful difference in performance between the two in a fixed power budget.

The A76 is a more interesting one, as it's a completely new core design, and in actual products, it's a big improvement in both performance and power efficiency over older A75-based designs. The problem is that these new SoCs are built on a 7nm process against 10nm for their A75 predecessors, so it's very difficult to tell if the efficiency improvements are all from the process change, or if there's some gains from the architecture, too. ARM themselves don't make any ISO-process efficiency claims (like they did for the A72 and A73), so I would assume they took the efficiency win from 7nm and focused on performance.

So the reality is that using the A73 or A75 or A76 probably won't make much difference to Nintendo if they're limited to ~500mW per core, so they may as well go with the smallest (ie cheapest) core, which is the A73.

There is one other factor, though, which is Nvidia. For the first Switch model Nintendo used an off-the-shelf SoC designed by Nvidia, and although there isn't an off-the-shelf option for them now, and I'd wager good money on Mariko being designed primarily for Nintendo, there's a possibility it's not designed entirely for Nintendo. They may have entered a deal where Nvidia can sell on the Mariko chip to other customers (let's say they want to make a play at the Windows on ARM market), and in that case Nvidia would want an SoC with those higher peak performance levels you get from the A75 or A76.

Would it be possible to use the more powerful A76 architecture if they simply limit the screen resolution in handheld mode to 720p for future models? The Switch is designed to have two operation modes and I don't think the A76 design would draw more power while undocked than the current design if it were kept limited to 720p resolution. Docked mode will likely let the chip loose, but it will be backed by AC power in that instance so there would be no need to worry.

What I'm trying to say is, would it be possible to simply limit the power draw of the A76 when portable? Because I think it would be more than enough. Or maybe this is more of a GPU question. I'm not sure.

I agree that NVidia is likely working on a design for Nintendo, exclusive or not. they have said that they see this relationship lasting decades, and when asked if they would ever release another nVidia Shield Tablet, Nvidia CEO Jensen Huang said "If the world needs it. But at the moment, I just don't see it. I think Nintendo did such a great job." Which, IMO, signals that future developments on this line will slide Nintendo's way first and foremost. Which is probably the best for them anyway, it's hard to track down Shield sales figures, meaning they probably aren't high enough to boast about, while the Switch's sales are pretty self-explanatory. I even think if the Switch sold middlingly or an all out flop it would probably still be higher than the shield's overall sales.
 

ILikeFeet

DF Deet Master
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
61,987
I do find it odd they even bother with a new X1 board when they have a Pascal board that's pretty much the same but on a better node. unless that new X1 board is on 12nm, it's pretty redundant (outside the extra GB of ram). it made me think that a replacement is coming sooner than later, and Nintendo might already have their hands on it
 

fiendcode

Member
Oct 26, 2017
24,906
Mario Maker 2 still being undated (unlike the rest of Nintendo's lineup through August) makes me wonder if we might see the revision launching alongside it in June?
 

ShadowFox08

Banned
Nov 25, 2017
3,524
Deguello
Yeah they should probabky stick to 720p for switch pro, but go straight to 1080p for switch 2. Or better yet, have two models with one using a 720p screen and another1080p screen and a bigger battery, and a 7nm node(if former is 12nm). 1080p screen in 2023 sounds a bit weird and outdated. If course by then it's going to be 1TFLOP handheld at least, if they got the hybrid route, so technically a 4k screen isn't needed.
 

ShadowFox08

Banned
Nov 25, 2017
3,524
^^a lite model with a better battery and more focus on portability is a shoe in.

For the second model, I hope it's a pro that is on the xbone to PS4 level at least. A pro model will make Switch compete for at least 3 more years and help get more 3rd party Western dev support. It would focus on 1080p resolution and perhaps double framerate or fidelity for some games over regular switch docked.

Now my biggest question with the pro model is what is more feasible for Nintendo and the market in general, a stand alone console or a hybrid? A stand alone home console using tegra X2 or Turing would make it cheaper and give us more power (PS4) at $300 vs a hybrid that would make likely it be atleast $350 at launch at 1 TFLOP GPU and be around xbone power. Of course many people do want a great docked performance on switch handheld pro mode which a standalone he can't offer.
 

Waffle

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,821
^^a lite model with a better battery and more focus on portability is a shoe in.

For the second model, I hope it's a pro that is on the xbone to PS4 level at least. A pro model will make Switch compete for at least 3 more years and help get more 3rd party Western dev support. It would focus on 1080p resolution and perhaps double framerate or fidelity for some games over regular switch docked.

Now my biggest question with the pro model is what is more feasible for Nintendo and the market in general, a stand alone console or a hybrid? A stand alone home console using tegra X2 or Turing would make it cheaper and give us more power (PS4) at $300 vs a hybrid that would make likely it be atleast $350 at launch at 1 TFLOP GPU and be around xbone power. Of course many people do want a great docked performance on switch handheld pro mode which a standalone he can't offer.

I'm not sure it's possible for the Switch Pro to be as powerful as a PS4 in the form factor it probably wants to be while keeping the system cooled and having a decent battery life.
 

Simba1

Member
Dec 5, 2017
5,383
^^a lite model with a better battery and more focus on portability is a shoe in.

For the second model, I hope it's a pro that is on the xbone to PS4 level at least. A pro model will make Switch compete for at least 3 more years and help get more 3rd party Western dev support. It would focus on 1080p resolution and perhaps double framerate or fidelity for some games over regular switch docked.

Now my biggest question with the pro model is what is more feasible for Nintendo and the market in general, a stand alone console or a hybrid? A stand alone home console using tegra X2 or Turing would make it cheaper and give us more power (PS4) at $300 vs a hybrid that would make likely it be atleast $350 at launch at 1 TFLOP GPU and be around xbone power. Of course many people do want a great docked performance on switch handheld pro mode which a standalone he can't offer.

Thats not will happen, we probably talking only about little higher clocks, so we probably talking about little higher resolution and frame rate for current games.
 

Pooroomoo

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,972
^^a lite model with a better battery and more focus on portability is a shoe in.

For the second model, I hope it's a pro that is on the xbone to PS4 level at least. A pro model will make Switch compete for at least 3 more years and help get more 3rd party Western dev support. It would focus on 1080p resolution and perhaps double framerate or fidelity for some games over regular switch docked.

Now my biggest question with the pro model is what is more feasible for Nintendo and the market in general, a stand alone console or a hybrid? A stand alone home console using tegra X2 or Turing would make it cheaper and give us more power (PS4) at $300 vs a hybrid that would make likely it be atleast $350 at launch at 1 TFLOP GPU and be around xbone power. Of course many people do want a great docked performance on switch handheld pro mode which a standalone he can't offer.
Won't happen. This tweet:

points to https://www.wsj.com/articles/nintendo-to-launch-two-new-switch-models-11553494773
and while I can't read the entire article since I don't have a subscription, the teaser text says "One version will have enhanced features targeted at avid videogamers, although it won't be as powerful as Sony Corp.'s PlayStation 4 Pro or Microsoft Corp.'s Xbox One X, according to parts suppliers and software developers for Nintendo who have access to a prototype of the machine."

Added: Oops, with all those "Pros" flying around, I misread. This article says it will not reach PS4 Pro level, it does not mention the PS4 vanilla which is what you referred to.
 
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Pooroomoo

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,972
Great rumour-news ^^

And obviously it can't reach One X or PS4 Pro X-D
Of course, nobody thought otherwise. But I'll break out the champagne only when it is actually confirmed that the Switch Pro is at either vanilla XB1 or PS4 level (and wouldn't be surprised if such a Switch Pro costs $400...).
 
Oct 26, 2017
7,981
Is it possible the nano could be used for a handheld only Switch? I know it has half the GPU cores, but could the platform be flexible enough to run half the cores at twice the rate for the same/similar results?
 

SMD

Member
Oct 28, 2017
6,341
Of course, nobody thought otherwise. But I'll break out the champagne only when it is actually confirmed that the Switch Pro is at either vanilla XB1 or PS4 level (and wouldn't be surprised if such a Switch Pro costs $400...).

Honestly it wouldn't make much of a difference at this point because you're going to get the same games that the base model gets but better IQ/frame rate.
 

SiG

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,485
Is it possible the nano could be used for a handheld only Switch? I know it has half the GPU cores, but could the platform be flexible enough to run half the cores at twice the rate for the same/similar results?
I've been thinking about this, but wouldn't the Jetson Nano have trouble running Switch games that veer close to the metal if that were the case? (i.e. FAST RMX) They would need a form of custom Jetson with the same amount of CUDA as Tegra X1.
 

Herb Alpert

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,033
Paris, France
If the pro offers :

Better horsepower (I absolutely don't expect it to match og xbox one though)
Real D pad
Less bezel
Bigger internal storage, 2 sd cards slots
Maybe analog triggers

Then I'm interested
 

Pooroomoo

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,972
Honestly it wouldn't make much of a difference at this point because you're going to get the same games that the base model gets but better IQ/frame rate.
I'm totally fine with that. The Pro will go to me (as long as it doesn't cost more than 400, though of course I would be happier if it costs $350 or less), my OG Switch will go to my eldest daughter who plays primarily point and clicks so doesn't need a beefier Switch with more gamer features, and whichever Switch costs the least (e.g. Switch mini or OG Switch after price cut) will go to my youngest daughter (16, not that young...) when Animal Crossing comes out.

If the pro offers :

Better horsepower (I absolutely don't expect it to match og xbox one though)
Real D pad
Less bezel
Bigger internal storage, 2 sd cards slots
Maybe analog triggers

Then I'm interested
Something like the above will definitely cost $400 |(if it will happen)
 
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