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New Sonic 3 beta reveals the infamous PC music tracks were actually the original ones pre-MJ
- Thread starter Lant_War
- Start date
User Banned (Permanent): Dismissing Pedophilia. History of the Same.
What awful things are you suggesting he did? Are you talking about child abuse? It takes 10 minutes of research to see that he didn't do such things.
"Great" is a little overblown, those tunes might be authentic but they're still not particularly good.
Nah it's true, it mitigates earning your momentum, it's litterally a free single spindash on command on landing and a lot of mania levels facilitate it letting you just 'go'. It lowers the floor of Sonics gameplay. The whole new layer of skill is there for the Speed running crowd, sure, but is makes the basic gameplay less interesting.
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I actually love the MJ Carnival Night waaay better. Launch Base 2 is awesome, though! I like that one more than the original
Now I'm even more surprised they put the release version tunes in Sonic Jam, seeing as how there actually were versions of these songs already compiled like this
Sure, we do know this specific part of the story, but I was specifically meaning music scheduling and "replacing". The previous accounts of this sometimes mention deal breaking down at the last minute, but deal getting made in the first place this late in development is another thing altogether.
I wouldn't say we know the deal was made late in development -- there's a date on this build, but the date doesn't really mesh with other things we know. Specifically, the game supposedly went gold in late November, which is frankly not enough time for all the changes that were made between this beta and the final release -- if the Nov 3 date represents the actual state of the code (unlikely, imo) on Nov 3.
I would say that all signs point to this being a significantly older build that has the Nov 3 date attached to it (possibly because that's the date it was shared with marketing/PR)
*Besides* that, for all we know the deal to have the MJ team work on the OST was already done by the time any tracks were added to the game -- e.g, maybe they were "placeholders" (more like a contingency plan) all along on the basis that they didn't know how many tracks the outside team would actually make, and didn't want to scramble to fill in the gaps later.
What? The track is more melodic than MJ LB act 2.
I just like the arrangement of this version, the act 1 sucks.
Huh. Honestly, I can do without most of the MJ-made tracks in what I hope is an eventual remaster of Sonic 3, but I do hope Buxer's Ice Cap survives. But I can also live with all the problematic tracks being replaced outright by either these songs from the beta/PC version or remixed songs of said non-problematic songs or new songs entirely.
This sounds much better through the mega drive sound chip than through shitty pc midis
it's not exactly the same - you can't initiate a "drop dash" in this proto mid-jump like mania. you have to actually be holding up *when you first press jump*. think super-peel-out input. significantly changes how/when you can use it compared to the mania drop dash
What an incredible discovery, Sonic betas are consistently fascinating still after all these years.
I still prefer the originals but these are a huge step up from the PC MIDIs.
I still prefer the originals but these are a huge step up from the PC MIDIs.
Yeah I tried it after reading Retro and it's a little more cumbersome, but it's still an amazing coincide (I say coincidence because is what Taxman said)
To be fair the PC version had the issues from MIDI soundtracks that it sounds vastly different depending on what card you have. But yeah the MD version is the best sounding out of all the PC versions I listened.
Buxers Ice Cap is infamously and blatantly a cover of Hard Times by the Jetzons, a band he was a part of in the 80s. Its in the same park as the MJ tracks so I dont really see an exception to it if Sega cuts the MJ tracks in a future rerelease for these originals
Well, Hard Times wasn't officially published until long after Sonic 3 was done (and was redone as Ice Cap presumably because Buxer didn't want the tune to go to waste), it's a completely different class of licensing issue than Michael freaking Jackson.
In HPZ wiki they say the header and the EPROM dates are different and it seems like it would actually be an October build, not November like first said.
I saw someone on retro proposing the idea that this build was a separate branch used by the 2p team to develop the mode, it would explain with 2p mode is almost finished and with Sonic 3 sprites. I think it makes some sense. Or could just be a weird side branch for something.
Lots of good info about this beta here
https://tcrf.net/Proto:Sonic_the_Hedgehog_3
As someone who grew up with the PC version, it's surreal and amazing to hear these music tracks in their original Genesis glory. It's a genuine surprise to learn that they were in fact the original tracks for those levels, but it makes a lot of sense since they fit a lot more smoothly with the Angel Island et al. songs tonally. I would guess that these tracks were composed by the same people who did the earlier levels and were replaced later on when Buxer/MJ finished their compositions or finished a deal to put their tracks in the game.
The Carnival Night tracks especially hold a dear place in my heart. Interestingly, Carnival Night act 1 is slower and in a higher key than the PC version that was released later.
The Carnival Night tracks especially hold a dear place in my heart. Interestingly, Carnival Night act 1 is slower and in a higher key than the PC version that was released later.
Woke up and I'm so glad to saw this thread. Mind is completely blown about Carnival Night, Icecap and Launch Base music :O
S&K Collection is actually how I played these games originally as I didn't have a Genesis growing up (but played at a friend's house constantly) and thought it was some weird "new" version. So glad this beta was discovered(?)
Also the old school drop dash was here...what a coincidence lol.
S&K Collection is actually how I played these games originally as I didn't have a Genesis growing up (but played at a friend's house constantly) and thought it was some weird "new" version. So glad this beta was discovered(?)
Also the old school drop dash was here...what a coincidence lol.
why is the carnival night beta music so much better then what was used on the PC version lol. not possible in midi or something?
How it sounds on the PC depends a lot on what MIDI hardware or soundfont the PC version's played back on; I think the PC version sounds pretty decent on my SC-8820. The problem is that most games, outside of Final Fantasy VII and a few Japanese titles, only used the standard 128 General MIDI sounds as most people didn't have better hardware. That severely limits the range of sounds that can be reproduced.
A little off topic, but didn't see a thread discussing the beta by itself:
I've always been interested in the trajectory for Flying Battery Zone. As you see here it's super broken and not ready for prime time, which makes sense when you think about the fact that it didn't make it in til Sonic & Knuckles.
HOWEVER, it had to be planned for part 1 at some point, because it was part of the marketing plan. It's here in this rom, and most interesting of all (in my opinion) it shows up on the bag for the 1993 Sonic 3 McDonalds Happy Meals. I remember playing Sonic 3 and wondering where "Flying Battery" went (I was also a dumb child that thought it was literally going to be a battery (re: AA, AAA, 9V) themed stage).
McDonalds Bag:
https://postimg.cc/bGLVqB05
I've always been interested in the trajectory for Flying Battery Zone. As you see here it's super broken and not ready for prime time, which makes sense when you think about the fact that it didn't make it in til Sonic & Knuckles.
HOWEVER, it had to be planned for part 1 at some point, because it was part of the marketing plan. It's here in this rom, and most interesting of all (in my opinion) it shows up on the bag for the 1993 Sonic 3 McDonalds Happy Meals. I remember playing Sonic 3 and wondering where "Flying Battery" went (I was also a dumb child that thought it was literally going to be a battery (re: AA, AAA, 9V) themed stage).
McDonalds Bag:
https://postimg.cc/bGLVqB05
IIRC the whole thing with Flying Battery being meant to follow Carnival Night and precede Icecap has been fairly well known for a while.
They had already started removing it from Sonic 3 at the point this beta was made. It probably was more complete at that time than you see it in this build.
The enemies being present in debug mode and both bosses being complete suggests they probably had a playable level at that point. The removal could have been for other reasons. Namely, from the sound test you can hear that all of the stages from the final were already planned out and had music. Launch base was a suitable "final level" being Eggman's base, but with flying battery intact that would have given Sonic 3 fourteen stages while part 2 would then only have 10 stages. This is just speculation, but it may have been the best level for them to move out to keep the split game more even in number of stages. S & K would have been a pretty short game otherwise.
It was definitely mentioned in at least one UK games magazines' preview coverage, as I remember reading about his involvement with the music and discussing it with friends when the game was still in development.
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You're right, this would be so much better with 30 repetitions of the same scratchy "Go!" sample.
Yes, many would prefer a catchy/smooth head nod beat over "hyper happiness!"; The part after the :30 second mark ruins the original Launch Base track in my opinion.
The original tracks aren't bad but I don't find any of them to be better than the MJ influenced ones that were used in the final Genesis game—especially Ice Cap & the competition theme.
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Iirc flying battery was supposed to take place before Icecap and Sonic would snowboard down the mountain on the door he broke off at the end of act 2
Actually, it sounds alright
Does this mean we can finally get proper ports of S3&K instead of Sega pretending the game never happened?
I wouldn't mind these tracks on a Switch version of the game. I've wanted Sonic 3 on Switch for a while now.
I'd happily take the alternate Carnival Night track over what we got, even if it doesn't fit as well. Act 2 is even better.
Ice Cap is a no, no no no, Hard Times or nothing, that song is literally 50% of what makes the zone awesome.
Launch Pad.... I was never a huge fan of MJ's song, but it's still better than the PC/original. The constant "gogogo" is a bit much, but the melody is better, especially when most of the instrumentation drops away and you're left with the bass and guitar-sound.
While all these songs sound much better here than the midi on PC, they still sound somewhat incomplete or not fully realised, like demos. I wonder if they knew at this point which songs would be replaced and kept simple demo songs as placeholders.
Maybe they even had the MJ/Buxer songs written already, they just hadn't implemented the right sound driver yet or something. The sound on this proto is fucked.
Also what's with these tracks and their annoying intros? That's another thing that makes them feel like demos.
Ice Cap is a no, no no no, Hard Times or nothing, that song is literally 50% of what makes the zone awesome.
Launch Pad.... I was never a huge fan of MJ's song, but it's still better than the PC/original. The constant "gogogo" is a bit much, but the melody is better, especially when most of the instrumentation drops away and you're left with the bass and guitar-sound.
While all these songs sound much better here than the midi on PC, they still sound somewhat incomplete or not fully realised, like demos. I wonder if they knew at this point which songs would be replaced and kept simple demo songs as placeholders.
Maybe they even had the MJ/Buxer songs written already, they just hadn't implemented the right sound driver yet or something. The sound on this proto is fucked.
Also what's with these tracks and their annoying intros? That's another thing that makes them feel like demos.
There's no way these tracks are simply placeholders, you have to compose them and make them play with the MD synthetizer, that's a lot of effort for placeholders ,and they sound as advanced if not more than other tracks that made it to retail, they would just use Sonic 2 tracks or 2p mode tracks if they were placeholders.
I admit I don't know the complexities of translating a song into the MD synthesizer, but I have to hard disagree with these songs sounding more advanced than the final songs we got. That's taking it a bit far.
These 3 tracks don't even approach Marble Garden with their composition, let alone the god-tier songs like Hydro City and all the S&K songs (which are already present in this prototype, near complete).
C'mon, you can't listen to Ice Cap Act 1 from this prototype and say it doesn't sound simple as hell. There's barely anything going on, it sounds like a results screen...
Launch Pad Act 2 is decent, they at least chopped that awful intro.
I meant in terms of programming, like AIZ sounds more unfinished and glitchiy that some of the cut tracks, I wasn't talking about the composition.
Still, when you look at release Ice Cap, for putting an example, the track is super simple too, it's probably as short as the cut Ice Cap and the melody is also very simple. But it's got an awesome arrangement (dat bassline) that makes it way better, and well, the melody is catchier.
