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UnsungKing

Member
Dec 31, 2019
334
For me, it's sort of this...

The game has multiple endings, but in zero of them can Ellis overcome his PTSD and the damage it has already caused his life, which isn't a great message at all. It's a horror game, so I get having dark endings, but if you've got four endings... even if it's an ending you can't get on the first play through, it would be very appreciated that one of them allowed him to gain control back over his life.
I don't agree with the take that they have to put a "good" ending in their game. It's their art and their story, they should be able to tell it however they want. Sometimes people can't overcome things and sometimes life just isn't fair. That's part of the horror.
 

plagiarize

Eating crackers
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
27,511
Cape Cod, MA
I don't agree with the take that they have to put a "good" ending in their game. It's their art and their story, they should be able to tell it however they want. Sometimes people can't overcome things and sometimes life just isn't fair. That's part of the horror.
If they wanted to send the message that you can't prevent PTSD ruining your life then job done I guess.

It'd be pretty shitty art though.

I only said it would be appreciated. They can do what they want.
 

Darkknight2149

Ban made permanent due to harassment of staff
Banned
May 27, 2020
6,398
Well the reason the HD remasters suck is because they lost the source code to those games.
The HD Collection sucked because they hired an inexperienced developer to remaster them without the source code with limited time and budget.

It's possible to remaster a game without source code. Most of Bluepoint's remasters rebuild the assets from the original discs instead of using the source code, while Square Enix had lost all of the source code for the Kingdom Hearts games before having to remaster them without it.

They would have to hire a more experienced developer with more resources (Hijinx was a mobile developer who had only worked on ports of games like Frogger and Karaoke Revolution), but nothing is making it impossible for Konami to remaster Silent Hill 2-3.
 

Argentil

Member
Oct 27, 2017
732
I just finished The Medium. Enjoyed it a lot, what were peoples issues with it, aside from the mediocre frame pacing, stuttering I encountered?

If you want an exhaustive run down, you can watch this: (or some of their other videos).

The TL;DR that doesn't even capture a fraction of the issues or their history with mishandling these topics is:

Mary Anne's sister Lillianne is raped as a child by Richard. Richard, the paedophile and abuser, then has 2 hours devoted to making you feel sympathetic toward him and establishing the idea that his abuse as a child made him this way. Lillianne however, the victim of child abuse and rape, is thrust into a drawn out spiral of trauma caused by the abuse which leads to her psyche fracturing, manifesting and turning violent. By the end of the game, your choice as the player is to kill yourself or your tortured sister (and the choice isn't given to the player). There is no other option. The message is that victims of trauma are going to propagate a cycle of violence and they are beyond helping. This is a common theme in Bloober's games with how they handle mental illness and trauma. They have no empathy for the incredibly shocking subject matter they're choosing to tackle. It's just rape and abuse for the shock factor, turning the victim into an irredeemable villain, and labelling sufferers of mental illness as lost causes. They will exploit gross visuals and subjects just to make their game edgy, instead of actually having care for the themes and what they're trying to say in their games.

Which is completely contrary to the sensitive manner similar topics are handled in SH. Alessa suffers more than Lillianne, but is still allowed to find peace and redemption as Heather. James is given options in his endings, most ending in acceptance in different forms and giving up on his delusions (or even embracing them). Angela is abused by her father, ends up killing him, but never once tries to turn the blade on others out of aggression. She instead deals with self-harm and disgust because of the abuse of her father.

To be honest, I can't even summarise this in a concise way. It's not my strength. There are quite a few YouTubers and fans who have dissected Bloober's problematic writing.
 

Argentil

Member
Oct 27, 2017
732
Btw regarding Blooper, I've rarely seen anyone bring up Observer, which I think is by far their best game.

What did everyone think about it?

I was just singing Observer's praises a few posts earlier. I would love an Observer 2, it definitely suits their style better.
Observer was my favourite game of theirs. It really captured the cyberpunk vibe so much better than Cyberpunk 2077. I would be interested in an observer 2 for sure. I think them sticking to a simple story, with relatively simple motivations was a good move for that game and it worked. They had a lot of discoverable exposition that was hit and miss but mostly worked well. I was so impressed by what they achieved with Observer on a light budget with the video call dialogue and data logs.
 
Oct 29, 2017
1,494
If you want an exhaustive run down, you can watch this: (or some of their other videos).

The TL;DR that doesn't even capture a fraction of the issues or their history with mishandling these topics is:

Mary Anne's sister Lillianne is raped as a child by Richard. Richard, the paedophile and abuser, then has 2 hours devoted to making you feel sympathetic toward him and establishing the idea that his abuse as a child made him this way. Lillianne however, the victim of child abuse and rape, is thrust into a drawn out spiral of trauma caused by the abuse which leads to her psyche fracturing, manifesting and turning violent. By the end of the game, your choice as the player is to kill yourself or your tortured sister (and the choice isn't given to the player). There is no other option. The message is that victims of trauma are going to propagate a cycle of violence and they are beyond helping. This is a common theme in Bloober's games with how they handle mental illness and trauma. They have no empathy for the incredibly shocking subject matter they're choosing to tackle. It's just rape and abuse for the shock factor, turning the victim into an irredeemable villain, and labelling sufferers of mental illness as lost causes. They will exploit gross visuals and subjects just to make their game edgy, instead of actually having care for the themes and what they're trying to say in their games.

Which is completely contrary to the sensitive manner similar topics are handled in SH. Alessa suffers more than Lillianne, but is still allowed to find peace and redemption as Heather. James is given options in his endings, most ending in acceptance in different forms and giving up on his delusions (or even embracing them). Angela is abused by her father, ends up killing him, but never once tries to turn the blade on others out of aggression. She instead deals with self-harm and disgust because of the abuse of her father.

To be honest, I can't even summarise this in a concise way. It's not my strength. There are quite a few YouTubers and fans who have dissected Bloober's problematic writing.

Sure, this all makes sense. I didn't think the game tried to make that character sympathetic, but I definitely get how other aspects of that were mishandled.


I think they could succeed with an SH2 remake if that's what they're up to, imo. We shall see though
 

Jroc

Banned
Jun 9, 2018
6,145
Yeah, the main issue is just that Maine and New Hampshire don't really have any reasonable amount of petroleum deposits in the ground. So presumably early Silent Hill started up a mine to try and get some business going, realized the hills were dry and just let it rot. That's at least believable as to why there would be a photo of an old mine in the Historical Society.

But then Homecoming tries to portray the whole region as having a bustling mining presence and Downpour follows along in that vein and it's just...nah. Christophe Gans took WAY TOO MUCH inspiration from Centralia and it really feels like the folks making Homecoming and Downpour paid more attention to the movies than they did the actual games. I don't even think Homecoming remembered the town is a resort at all, even if Downpour slightly course-corrected and made references to the resort again.

And neither town actually presented the town as actively populated outside of the Fog World, which it very much SHOULD be. If Silent Hill is an abandoned ruin, it takes so much away from the setting. What makes it special is the fact that it really is a normal place with real people living in it day by day unaware of the fact that there's another side that most of them never even know is there.

I just remembered that Downpour gave the town a fucking underground subway system. I'm from Nova Scotia so I'm also very familiar with the style of North Eastern/New England town that Silent Hill is based on. I can suspend my disbelief when it comes to the multiple hospitals, but a sleepy lakeside resort town having a multi-million dollar metro system is hilarious.
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
115,515
I just remembered that Downpour gave the town a fucking underground subway system. I'm from Nova Scotia so I'm also very familiar with the style of North Eastern/New England town that Silent Hill is based on. I can suspend my disbelief when it comes to the multiple hospitals, but a sleepy lakeside resort town having a multi-million dollar metro system is hilarious.

I laughed at that. The only subway system in New England is in Boston itself, as far as I'm aware. And even that's like half above-ground rail.
 

Uzupedro

Banned
May 16, 2020
12,234
Rio de Janeiro
Grubb:
Silent Hill 5, Japanese studio, this is the one that got images leaked.
Silent Hill 2 Remake by Bloober, Unreal 5 and meant to be a faithful remake.
Western SH game also published by Western published (not Konami), he also heard Annapurna's name but bunch of publishers tried to get the deal and it might have multi media content, because they want to make a show and a movie too.
4th smaller project, could be a small spin off, mobile game or something else, supposedly being made in Taiwan.

Pretty much matches what was said before, minus the SH5 thing regarding the images, since VGC said images were from the demo so...who knows.
 

BloodRayne

Member
Jul 3, 2020
5,437
Grubb:
Silent Hill 5, Japanese studio, this is the one that got images leaked.
Silent Hill 2 Remake by Bloober, Unreal 5 and meant to be a faithful remake.
Western SH game also published by Western published (not Konami), he also heard Annapurna's name but bunch of publishers tried to get the deal and it might have multi media content, because they want to make a show and a movie too.
4th smaller project, could be a small spin off, mobile game or something else, supposedly being made in Taiwan.

Pretty much matches what was said before, minus the SH5 thing regarding the images, since VGC said images were from the demo so...who knows.

Wow that's a lot. Another movie? And a TV show too?

Annapurna is probably one of the best Western publishers to handle Silent Hill, you can be sure they'll at least make sure to deliver a good quality product.
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
115,515
That seems like WAY TOO MUCH investment on an IP that has never sold enough copies to justify that much work. At least some of these projects must BARELY be in development, if they got greenlit at all.
 

Ashes of Dreams

Unshakable Resolve
Member
May 22, 2020
14,331
Mary Anne's sister Lillianne is raped as a child by Richard. Richard, the paedophile and abuser, then has 2 hours devoted to making you feel sympathetic toward him and establishing the idea that his abuse as a child made him this way. Lillianne however, the victim of child abuse and rape, is thrust into a drawn out spiral of trauma caused by the abuse which leads to her psyche fracturing, manifesting and turning violent. By the end of the game, your choice as the player is to kill yourself or your tortured sister (and the choice isn't given to the player). There is no other option. The message is that victims of trauma are going to propagate a cycle of violence and they are beyond helping. This is a common theme in Bloober's games with how they handle mental illness and trauma. They have no empathy for the incredibly shocking subject matter they're choosing to tackle. It's just rape and abuse for the shock factor, turning the victim into an irredeemable villain, and labelling sufferers of mental illness as lost causes. They will exploit gross visuals and subjects just to make their game edgy, instead of actually having care for the themes and what they're trying to say in their games.

Which is completely contrary to the sensitive manner similar topics are handled in SH. Alessa suffers more than Lillianne, but is still allowed to find peace and redemption as Heather. James is given options in his endings, most ending in acceptance in different forms and giving up on his delusions (or even embracing them). Angela is abused by her father, ends up killing him, but never once tries to turn the blade on others out of aggression. She instead deals with self-harm and disgust because of the abuse of her father.

To be honest, I can't even summarise this in a concise way. It's not my strength. There are quite a few YouTubers and fans who have dissected Bloober's problematic writing.

I agree with the part about Bloober's missteps in writing. I think the real problem with them though is that they keep doing it. When most of their games have this same problem it created a pattern that says more than if it was just one dark tale. I think some people are bending over backwards a little pit when pitting them against Silent Hill though, to try and make SH seem like a bastion of hope and positive stories about mental illness and... ehh, I don't think it has a problem there but this also seems a bit like cherry picking.

Taking SH2 as an example, I would not consider the vast majority of endings for James to be positive. The only one is the "Leave" ending, really. "In Water" has him choosing suicide, which is also most people's favorite. It's a good ending but it's far from a positive outcome for him. "Maria" is probably the worst ending, where James gives in to his delusions and refuses to accept what he did. "Rebirth" is pretty awful in it's own ways too. Really if you took "Leave" out it would all be tragic endings.

And then there's Angela. For one, it's HEAVILY implied that she also killed her brother and was trying to find her mother to kill her too, then possibly kill herself. She didn't just kill her father in self-defense or anything. She was taking revenge against her whole family, she was completely broken. And there's no happy ending for her possible. Walking up those stairs into the fire can be interpreted in a few ways and none of them are positive.

I'll also bring up Claudia, who was similarly abused by her father and turned into a villain that murders people.

I don't bring up those examples to criticize SH or say they are the same as Bloober. I do think there's a difference. But I think maybe we shouldn't act like SH isn't also what it is. They absolutely also tell tragic stories about victims that often have no hope or happy endings. Really the difference here is that Silent Hill does it well and Bloober Team doesn't. But I don't think it's impossible for Bloober to improve here and I think some pople (like bobvids) are a little too obsessed with hating them, that it's led to a situation where Silent Hill has to have done EVERYTHING better than them, to the point where we're intentionally misrepresenting the stories of SIlent Hill.
 

Argentil

Member
Oct 27, 2017
732
That seems like WAY TOO MUCH investment on an IP that has never sold enough copies to justify that much work. At least some of these projects must BARELY be in development, if they got greenlit at all.
This is the only reason I'm skeptical about the VGC leak. I think the leaked shots indicate that there was something substantial 2 years ago.

As has been echoed repeatedly, I'm expecting the worst until the game(s) gets a reveal. I'm not sure how much Konami have changed their MO over the years, but they used to release their games fairly shortly after announcing? I could be wrong.
 

Winston1

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
2,104
I just remembered that Downpour gave the town a fucking underground subway system. I'm from Nova Scotia so I'm also very familiar with the style of North Eastern/New England town that Silent Hill is based on. I can suspend my disbelief when it comes to the multiple hospitals, but a sleepy lakeside resort town having a multi-million dollar metro system is hilarious.
Literally every time I think about Downpour, I have less respect for the developers. They were hopelessly inept in just about every aspect of game design, storytelling, and consistency.
 

Dusk Golem

Local Horror Enthusiast
Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,804
Grubb:
Silent Hill 5, Japanese studio, this is the one that got images leaked.
Silent Hill 2 Remake by Bloober, Unreal 5 and meant to be a faithful remake.
Western SH game also published by Western published (not Konami), he also heard Annapurna's name but bunch of publishers tried to get the deal and it might have multi media content, because they want to make a show and a movie too.
4th smaller project, could be a small spin off, mobile game or something else, supposedly being made in Taiwan.

Pretty much matches what was said before, minus the SH5 thing regarding the images, since VGC said images were from the demo so...who knows.
I can actually comment on the 4th project as I haven't heard of it, so just pure speculation on my side rather than a leak. If it's a small game from Taiwan, I'd actually place my bets it's a game by Red Candle Games, I feel like they'd be a candidate for Konami to reach out to after Detention and Devotion, and probably could arrange a deal for making a low budget SH game (Detention & Devotion weren't high budget games either, but both recognized as quality psychological horror games). But again, that's 100% pure speculation from me.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,798
I can actually comment on the 4th project as I haven't heard of it, so just pure speculation on my side rather than a leak. If it's a small game from Taiwan, I'd actually place my bets it's a game by Red Candle Games, I feel like they'd be a candidate for Konami to reach out to after Detention and Devotion. But again, that's 100% pure speculation from me.

They're busy making a game right now called Nine Sols. Seems unlikely.
 

Dusk Golem

Local Horror Enthusiast
Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,804
They're busy making a game right now called Nine Sols. Seems unlikely.
Mmn-hmn, I'm aware. But even though they aren't a big studio, that doesn't stop them from potentially having something further out to work on back-and-forth. I think most indie devs have more than project in the works at any given time, just one that is their "main" focus for a time, before finishing it up & shifting over main focus to the thing they've been working away on and off.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,798
Mmn-hmn, I'm aware. But even though they aren't a big studio, that doesn't stop them from potentially having something further out to work on back-and-forth. I think most indie devs have more than project in the works at any given time, just one that is their "main" focus for a time, before finishing it up & shifting over main focus to the thing they've been working away on and off.

Not impossible, for sure, but given the recency of the Kickstarter for Nine Sols, estimated release date, and expected size of the team you're probably looking at 2025 release for their next thing.
 

Darkknight2149

Ban made permanent due to harassment of staff
Banned
May 27, 2020
6,398
Literally every time I think about Downpour, I have less respect for the developers. They were hopelessly inept in just about every aspect of game design, storytelling, and consistency.
I speculate that a reason more people are starting to defend the HD Collection and Downpour now more than before is because those are the only ones that have been widely available on consoles (specifically PlayStation Now and the X-Box Store).

Before the Dead by Daylight DLC attracted a lot of newcomers (which is good for the series), the HD Collection was universally panned and Downpour was generally considered to be in competition with Homecoming as the weakest entry. Although it always had fans/defenders, it appears to be getting a minor reprisal now, with a lot of people praising it as the best post-Team Silent game and saying that Vatra Games deserves another chance.

I myself don't agree with that, for a lot of the reasons others have talked about here. I guess I can see the appreciation for the open world and Alan Wake-ish survival horror, but a good Silent Hill game it honestly isn't. This is the game where they turned the Otherworld into a carnival theme park ride and introduced a friendly ghost mailman from the 1880s...

Masahiro Ito redesigned Pyramid Head because the original design looked too much like a regular human in a mask, but that's every monster in Downpour.
 
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PLASTICA-MAN

Member
Oct 26, 2017
23,573
Grubb:
Silent Hill 5, Japanese studio, this is the one that got images leaked.
Silent Hill 2 Remake by Bloober, Unreal 5 and meant to be a faithful remake.
Western SH game also published by Western published (not Konami), he also heard Annapurna's name but bunch of publishers tried to get the deal and it might have multi media content, because they want to make a show and a movie too.
4th smaller project, could be a small spin off, mobile game or something else, supposedly being made in Taiwan.

Pretty much matches what was said before, minus the SH5 thing regarding the images, since VGC said images were from the demo so...who knows.

What? Where did he say that? I missed all of those. You have a link for his tweets ? Thanks.
 

Darkknight2149

Ban made permanent due to harassment of staff
Banned
May 27, 2020
6,398
Given that Jeff claims that Bloober Team is making a faithful Silent Hill 2 remake (dubious), I'm taking specifics in this video with a grain of salt.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,798
Given that Jeff claims that Bloober Team is making a faithful Silent Hill 2 remake (dubious), I'm taking specifics in this video with a grain of salt.

The thing that bothers me about the entire exchange in that article is that it more or less seems to be directly in response to their work on Blair Witch. Yes, he does eventually say that the next project will also be a Bloober game first and foremost, but I think some of the particulars of that project were included in his answer and it's kind of an ad hoc statement for that game. Of course, we've also seen the rumors that they are adding an ending(s) and changing some of the puzzle design, so that could speak to the notion of the game being a Bloober production in the way that they kind of leave an artist's mark, per se.

With as many people as have come forward about there being a Silent Hill 2 Remake I think that we probably need to take that as enough smoke that there's a fire there, before we lean into an editorialized PR response, but that's just my two cents.
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,005
Really wondering who the Japanese developer is for the new mainline game. There seems to be two main candidates.

Kojima Productions is one major candidate coming from P.T./Silent Hills and the Gematsu rumor, as they tend to be reliable site. VGC disputed that however when the rumor debuted last year, suggesting a different Japanese developer. Kojima probably is working on a horror game. In his social media he watches a lot of horror movies and has even referred to watching them "for work". He also seems to be working on two projects as he stated so in a December Famitsu interview, with one game being big and one being a "new challenge". The "new challenge" probably refers to the credibly rumored cloud based game for Microsoft. What would the "big" project be?

The other main candidate is Koei-Tecmo. Koei-Tecmo regularly lets its internal developers work with other publishers as seen with the output of Team Ninja and Omega Force who have worked with Nintendo, Square-Enix, Atlus, and Bandai-Namco among others. They do have a background in horror with the Fatal Frame series. That series seems to be inactive at the moment, and I have no idea what the Fatal Frame team is doing (or even if they still exist), but I imagine they could easily be put on Silent Hill, which is a far bigger franchise than Fatal Frame.

Some have suggested Bokeh and Tango, as they both have a horror background,s but I see them as really unlikely. Bokeh is a small recent startup and I'd imagine all their resources are on Slitterhead. Tango is of course now owned by Microsoft, which contradicts the rumors of the new Silent Hill being tied to Sony, be it in funding, publishing or marketing. Platinum could be a candidate as they are huge, independent, and work on multiple projects, but I see that as unlikely as they have not put out any horror games and seem overstretched at the moment. Some could also argue From Software which is the other big high profile dev that works with multiple publishers, and has put out horror games in the past, but they seem to be focused on Souls-Type games and the all but confirmed Armored Core. I doubt they would be interested in doing a Silent Hill.

Unless its some small studio no one has ever heard of, I can't think of any candidates except Kojima Productions or Koei-Tecmo.

It's crazy that we have had these rumors of the studio being Japanese, without the name of the studio itself.
 

PLASTICA-MAN

Member
Oct 26, 2017
23,573
The fact that SH2 is UE5 gives me a really percentage of hope to see the game. Just giving it an infinitesimal chance.
 

Winston1

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
2,104
Well since the Western games are licensed by Konami, the expansions they added to the town are all officially canon. That said, I personally treat them as canon as Michael Myers in Halloween being powered by an ancient dark demon worshiped by the Thorn Cult. Which is to say, not at all.

I'll add that something I really appreciate about SH1 is that it feels like Toyama and his team really put in the research and effort to make Silent Hill look like an actual small American resort town. I do not get that vibe with Double Helix and Vatra. Double Helix just threw a penitentiary in the middle of the damn shopping district and made the town resemble the way it looked in the movie. Vatra added a subway, and the town in Downpour doesn't even look anything like a resort town. It instead looks much more like a European industrial-esque town.

I speculate that a reason more people are starting to defend the HD Collection and Downpour now more than before is because those are the only ones that have been widely available on consoles (specifically PlayStation Now and the X-Box Store).

Before the Dead by Daylight DLC attracted a lot of newcomers (which is good for the series), the HD Collection was universally panned and Downpour was generally considered to be in competition with Homecoming as the weakest entry. Although it always had fans/defenders, it appears to be getting a minor reprisal now, with a lot of people praising it as the best post-Team Silent game and saying that Vatra Games deserves another chance.

I myself don't agree with that, for a lot of the reasons others have talked about here. I guess I can see the appreciation for the open world and Alan Wake-ish survival horror, but a good Silent Hill game it honestly isn't. This is the game where they turned the Otherworld into a carnival theme park ride and introduced a sentient friendly ghost mailman from the 1880s...
For Downpour, I honestly feel like part of the appreciation it gets is just because of the fact that it was trying to resemble a more classic survival-horror type game during a time when other horror franchises were either dead or shifted their focus to action. And also because of the fact that it made an attempt to be more "fresh" and "original" than the previous Western Silent Hill titles (Origins and Homecoming). If I recall correctly, one of the things that Vatra even had been stressing before release was that they would not borrow from the previous games like Homecoming did, that they would not reuse previous monster designs or locations. Which is commendable, but that doesn't get bonus points from me when the result is that they created the worst monsters designs in the entire franchise and created a part of the town completely inconsistent with what Toyama and his team established. And while it tries having elements from classic survival-horror games, like fixed camera angles and "bad" combat, it has a bunch of mainstream game elements too, like regenerating health and auto saves which also end up horribly impacting the framerate. The game is filled with a whole host of design elements and ideas, and it fails to mix them all consistently or do any of them competently. I've said it before, but I would compare Downpour to the 2008 Alone in the Dark game. It had some really cool and innovative ideas for it's time, but it also had tons of terrible ideas and absolutely did not do anything reasonably well.

And for all of Downpour's claims at being "original" it still fell into the same pitfall of trying to mimic SH2 and in the process misunderstanding the point of James' story like the previous Western games (with maybe the exception of Shattered Memories).

This might also sound controversial, but I honestly have more respect for Homecoming because of how blatant it is with cribbing from SH2. It doesn't try to hide it at all, to the point it just straight-up puts Pyramid Head in the game. Whereas Origins and Downpour make more of an attempt to hide the fact that they're trying to copy from SH2, which honestly gets more scorn from me. Instead of Pyramid Head, they use the Butcher and the Boogieman. Because those are totally original and not at all Pyramid Head knockoffs...

That, and I think Homecoming genuinely tells its story better than Origins and Downpour do. It mixes the cult story with the personal story a hell of a lot better than Origins. Alex Shepherd also had something resembling a personality and a motivation for going through all the horror in the game, which is more than I can say for Travis and Murphy. They are the worst characters possible for games that are trying to tell a SH2-type story. They basically have the same amount of personality and effort put into their characters as Henry in SH4 did. Origins and Downpour are, imo, what would happen if you made Henry the protagonist of Silent Hill 2 instead of James.

I'm more forgiving to Origins because I'm aware of the production troubles that game had, and despite everything, I think Climax managed to turn it into a fairly decent PSP horror game. Downpour however, I keep saying it, but it's clear that Vatra did not have both the budget and experience necessary to competently pull off the scope of the game. They should have attempted something more low scale, not try their hand at a semi open-world survival horror that tries appealing to both classic horror fans and mainstream audiences. If you don't have the practice and resources necessary for a project of that complexity, don't try it because it will almost certainly be awful. And Downpour is astonishingly bad in so many respects. I legit consider it to be one of the worst horror games to have been released during the PS3/XBox 360 era.
 
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Laranja

Member
Oct 31, 2017
444
London
Literally every time I think about Downpour, I have less respect for the developers. They were hopelessly inept in just about every aspect of game design, storytelling, and consistency.

There's plenty of reasons to dislike Downpour, but are you seriously making a fuss about the addition of a subway system to the town?

God forbid they sacrifice a little bit of realism in order to provide a fairly standard gameplay mechanic for open world games.
 

Winston1

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
2,104
There's plenty of reasons to dislike Downpour, but are you seriously making a fuss about the addition of a subway system to the town?

God forbid they sacrifice a little bit of realism in order to provide a fairly standard gameplay mechanic for open world games.
For me, it's pretty much everything about the game. The subway system is just one thing. Because again, something I appreciate about SH1 is how the town actually looked like a small American resort town, which added to the immersion and atmosphere. There are other ways they could have handled traversing the open-world town. Like splitting the town into different areas that you need to progress through the main story before you can access them, and then being able to open locked shortcuts to get back to the earlier sections, which is what SH1 and 2 did, as well as The Evil Within 2.
 
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Laranja

Member
Oct 31, 2017
444
London
For me, it's pretty much everything about the game. The subway system is just one thing detail. Because again, something I appreciate about SH1 is how the town actually looked like a small American resort town, which added to the immersion and atmosphere. There are other ways they could have handled traversing the open-world town. Like splitting the town into different areas that you need to progress through the main story before you can access them, and then being able to open locked shortcuts to get back to the earlier sections, which is what SH1 and 2 did, as well as The Evil Within 2.

Sure, but what you're suggesting is an entirely different progression system, and even that wouldn't negate the need for a fast--travel system. I think that one detail, as unrealistic as it may have been for a town the size of Silent Hill, was actually a pretty neat way to incorporate such a system into the game.

But then again, I'm not American and had never been to the US when I first played the original games, so I never really cared about how faithful the setting was to a real small American resort town.
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
115,515
I would be willing to accept that the subway system was a manifestation of the town specifically there to fuck with Murphy, but we don't have any indication Murphy is from a city that has subways, do we?

This is all complicated by how bad Downpour's otherworlds were. That would've been the ideal place for an impossible subway to show up but whoops.
 

Darkknight2149

Ban made permanent due to harassment of staff
Banned
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6,398
Sure, but what you're suggesting is an entirely different progression system, and even that wouldn't negate the need for a fast--travel system. I think that one detail, as unrealistic as it may have been for a town the size of Silent Hill, was actually a pretty neat way to incorporate such a system into the game.

But then again, I'm not American and had never been to the US when I first played the original games, so I never really cared about how faithful the setting was to a real small American resort town.
Having fast travel in Silent Hill is just... no. This is one area where developers will go into it with the "digital toy" mentality and completely lose the plot. The psychological horror of the series is dependent on being rooted in realism, even though there are supernatural elements. Team Silent even avoided using button prompts and on-screen U.I. in the first three games as a design philosophy.

Trying to do all of this video gamey stuff like fast travel, quick time events, combat rolls, flips, knife spins, stun locking enemies into place, ETC, is where the later games went wrong. Silent Hill is a serious psychological horror drama.

The same can also be said for a lot of Japanese-made horror and psychological horror in general. Ringu and The Exorcist feel very rooted in realism, despite having the supernatural, and that's part of what makes them scary.
 

Laranja

Member
Oct 31, 2017
444
London
Having fast travel in Silent Hill is just... no. This is one area where developers will go into it with the "digital toy" mentality and completely lose the plot. The psychological horror of the series is dependent on being rooted in realism, even though there are supernatural elements. Team Silent even avoided using button prompts and on-screen U.I. in the first three games as a design philosophy.

Trying to do all of this video gamey stuff like fast travel, quick time events, combat rolls, flips, knife spins, stun locking enemies into place, ETC, is where the later games went wrong. Silent Hill is a serious psychological horror drama.

The same can also be said for a lot of Japanese-made horror and psychological horror in general. Ringu and The Exorcist feel very rooted in realism, despite having the supernatural, and that's part of what makes them scary.

But Silent Hill is a video game series first and foremost. How can you say that it's too good for certain video game mechanics? And who's to say which ones are ok and which ones aren't?

I'm as legitimate a fan of the series as you are and I think fast travel in a Silent Hill game can be fine.
 

Laranja

Member
Oct 31, 2017
444
London
I would be willing to accept that the subway system was a manifestation of the town specifically there to fuck with Murphy, but we don't have any indication Murphy is from a city that has subways, do we?

This is all complicated by how bad Downpour's otherworlds were. That would've been the ideal place for an impossible subway to show up but whoops.

But the subway system is there to serve the player, not the narrative.

Why can you suspend your disbelief when James is carrying a truckload of items in his inventory but not when there's a subway system in a town?

Why can an unrealistic inventory system get a pass and a fast travel system can't?

It all seems to me that anything that Team Silent does gets a free pass and everything any other team did gets nitpicked to hell and back.
 
May 26, 2018
23,999
But Silent Hill is a video game series first and foremost. How can you say that it's too good for certain video game mechanics? And who's to say which ones are ok and which ones aren't?

I'm as legitimate a fan of the series as you are and I think fast travel in a Silent Hill game can be fine.

I think a part of Silent Hill's oppressive atmosphere is that it's a gauntlet. You have to go through it. You have to suffer its horrors. Fast travel gives, I think, a power over the town that diminishes its effect.
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
115,515
But the subway system is there to serve the player, not the narrative.

Why can you suspend your disbelief when James is carrying a truckload of items in his inventory but not when there's a subway system in a town?

Why can an unrealistic inventory system get a pass and a fast travel system can't?

It all seems to me that anything that Team Silent does gets a free pass and everything any other team did gets nitpicked to hell and back.

I think for me, I would've been fine with fast travel in Downpour if it was non-diegetic. Their attempt to make it "fit the town" doesn't work because no small New England towns have subway systems.

Like I said, if Downpour's Otherworlds weren't literal shit and a subway train just fucking showed up out of nowhere to troll Murphy during an Otherworld sequence I would've bought it. But having a whole network of subway trains in the Fog World, including in parts of Silent Hill we've been to before, rang hollow to me because I am from a town like Silent Hill and lol at towns like this having a subway system.

Silent Hill's local selectmen would never greenlight a public works project like that.
 

Darkknight2149

Ban made permanent due to harassment of staff
Banned
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6,398
But Silent Hill is a video game series first and foremost. How can you say that it's too good for certain video game mechanics? And who's to say which ones are ok and which ones aren't?

I'm as legitimate a fan of the series as you are and I think fast travel in a Silent Hill game can be fine.
I used the philosophy and style of horror of the original developers, and the genre, as my criteria. But differences in opinion are what discussion is for.

The thing is, I don't think video games are just digital toys. They are also an art and storytelling medium that puts you in the shoes of the protagonists. Silent Hill is probably one of the biggest examples of this, with mechanics used to tell a psychological horror story and to shake the player to their core.

To me, aspects like over-the-top combat and fast travel aren't faithful to the roots of the series and they disassociate the player from the horror and the feeling of being in the shoes of the protagonist.
 

Encephalon

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,851
Japan
Silent Hill the town is essentially a character in the games. It's important to be careful with how you expand upon it. James being able to carry a bunch of stuff doesn't really change James. It's not meant to be perceived that James has some sort of special ability that allows him to do that. James wouldn't be changed in any way if you forced him to use an item box like in Resident Evil.
 

Laranja

Member
Oct 31, 2017
444
London
I used the philosophy and style of horror of the original developers, and the genre, as my criteria. But differences in opinion are what discussion is for.

The thing is, I don't think video games are just digital toys. They are also an art and storytelling medium that puts you in the shoes of the protagonists. Silent Hill is probably one of the biggest examples of this, with mechanics used to tell a psychological horror story and to shake the player to their core.

To me, aspects like over-the-top combat and fast travel aren't faithful to the roots of the series and they disassociate the player from the horror and the feeling of being in the shoes of the protagonist.

I don't disagree with you about artistry in video games and Silent Hill being a special example of that. But the fact that we're both such big fans of it is precisely because it appeals to our particular sensibilities — not even necessarily the same ones, it's just a game series that resonated with us personally for several (and potentially different) reasons.

I'm just not a big fan of the discourse I see around the series where some fans impose their own sensibilities and preferences on everyone else.

I think we can agree to disagree on things like the subway system or a fast travel mechanic. There's no right or wrong opinion here.
 

Winston1

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
2,104
I think a fast travel method that would be less problematic and fit more with the surreal tone of the series would be something similar to the holes in SH4. Maybe use something like mirrors scattered throughout the town. When you find a mirror, you can step through it to take you to a different mirror that you've discovered. Only have a select few of them and space them out appropriately. Don't give the player too much that they can just ignore traversing on foot. Just an idea I'm spitballing.
 

RedMercury

Blue Venus
Member
Dec 24, 2017
17,648
Sure, but what you're suggesting is an entirely different progression system, and even that wouldn't negate the need for a fast--travel system. I think that one detail, as unrealistic as it may have been for a town the size of Silent Hill, was actually a pretty neat way to incorporate such a system into the game.
I would be surprised if most people even did the quest to unlock the subway, from what I remember wasn't it an optional side quest?
 

RedMercury

Blue Venus
Member
Dec 24, 2017
17,648
Yeah. It was about the only optional quest worth doing since it had a clear and beneficial reward, so I'd be more surprised if people ignored it.
I did it but by that time I think I had already done all the side quests, I don't really remember using the fast travel or anything that said like "do this quest first", maybe if you were reading a guide or something you'd know that but I didn't even know what the reward for it was I don't think
 

BloodRayne

Member
Jul 3, 2020
5,437
Fast travel in Silent Hill is absolutely terrible. I'm not American either but I know that not every town in the USA has a subway system, and I think it was pretty well established in SH 1-4 (even Origins) that Silent Hill is just a small resort town with some countryside nearby. It doesn't need to be turned into a bigger city like what happened to Raccoon City.
 
Feb 16, 2022
14,449
User Banned (2 weeks): thread derail
Grubb:
Silent Hill 5, Japanese studio, this is the one that got images leaked.
Silent Hill 2 Remake by Bloober, Unreal 5 and meant to be a faithful remake.
Western SH game also published by Western published (not Konami), he also heard Annapurna's name but bunch of publishers tried to get the deal and it might have multi media content, because they want to make a show and a movie too.
4th smaller project, could be a small spin off, mobile game or something else, supposedly being made in Taiwan.

Pretty much matches what was said before, minus the SH5 thing regarding the images, since VGC said images were from the demo so...who knows.



It's right in the beginning.

Can we please not platform Grubb here anymore? It feels gross after his Depp vs Heard tweets.