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Deleted member 12790

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Oct 27, 2017
24,537


This is a new version of the G-zero demo, I made this about 8 months ago, but now I want to make it public. This version doesn't need extra ram on cart, instead I'm using 16KB of the main system ram, so now the sise of the "map area" is 128x128 (instead of 256x256 of the previous mode 7 demos), because of this the "mode 7" graphics look now more "pixelated", but I don't think it looks so bad. Other advantage of this is that now I can use another 16KB to include a 2 player versus mode with split screen, horizontal or vertical. For now this is only a demo, but I want to make new graphics, new sprites, nothing related to f-zero series, a new game, and probably other name instead of "g-zero".

The previous demo, from 2015, used SRAM as a window into a larger bank of external RAM (a very crude form of memory paging) that would have been prohibitively expensive back in the day. This demo, however, is using completely stock hardware, capable of running on a standard cart as it would have existed back when the Genesis was real.

Mightily impressive stuff.
 

Kaworu

Member
Oct 28, 2017
365
Looks mighty impressive even after the reduction of the "map area" to 128x128 pixels.
 

Issen

Member
Nov 12, 2017
6,822
This is incredible. But didn't F-Zero run at 60 fps on the SNES? I'd love to see what a version of this running at 60 would look like (as in, how downgraded it would need to look or w/e).

Still, the fact that this is achieved without any dedicated auxiliary chips is just amazing. I love the Megadrive.
 
OP
OP

Deleted member 12790

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Oct 27, 2017
24,537
What witchcraft is this?!

Sega Megadrive demoscene is amazing. The system is busted wide open. I made a demo earlier this year showing hundreds of colors on screen at once. SGDK with gcc now compiles C about as well as an average person writing raw 68000. Things like Star Fox and Wolfenstein 3D have been ported over.

Magical CPU.
 

sweetmini

Member
Jun 12, 2019
3,921
Yeah 68k is love, and love is life.
I always felt the mega drive came a year too early... I wish it could have had more memory in there.
 

Deleted member 1627

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Oct 25, 2017
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Sega Megadrive demoscene is amazing. The system is busted wide open. I made a demo earlier this year showing hundreds of colors on screen at once. SGDK with gcc now compiles C about as well as an average person writing raw 68000. Things like Star Fox and Wolfenstein 3D have been ported over.

Magical CPU.

I had to go look at Street Racer as I thought that had beaten this to the punch, but boy is the MD version of that game waaaaay different to the SNES version. Yeesh.
 

retroman

Member
Oct 31, 2017
3,056
That looks pretty damn good! I really hope he manages to create a full game.

I had to go look at Street Racer as I thought that had beaten this to the punch, but boy is the MD version of that game waaaaay different to the SNES version. Yeesh.

Well, at least the racing segment of the Toy Story game is quite smooth. And it's exclusive to the Sega Mega Drive version!



Skip to 43:50 to see it in action.
 
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s_mirage

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,773
Birmingham, UK
Cool stuff!

I had to go look at Street Racer as I thought that had beaten this to the punch, but boy is the MD version of that game waaaaay different to the SNES version. Yeesh.

Yeah. On reflection, Street Racer wasn't terribly impressive. The unusually detailed roads gave the impression it was doing more than it really was, but there's nothing that special about it, and it's possibly even simpler that many contemporary games considering AFAIK the tracks are absolutely flat and don't even have faked hills that many games of the time did.
 

Deleted member 1627

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Oct 25, 2017
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Cool stuff!



Yeah. On reflection, Street Racer wasn't terribly impressive. The unusually detailed roads gave the impression it was doing more than it really was, but there's nothing that special about it, and it's possibly even simpler that many contemporary games considering AFAIK the tracks are absolutely flat and don't even have faked hills that many games of the time did.
Yeah and the SNES had 4 player 'mode 7' which was incredible at the time which makes the MD version all the more baffling.
 

lazygecko

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,628
The lower resolution doesn't look as bad as I expected. I wonder if it'd also be possible to make the non-track portions of the plane transparent to display a background layer underneath. Maybe that's what the black portions are meant for?
 
OP
OP

Deleted member 12790

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The lower resolution doesn't look as bad as I expected. I wonder if it'd also be possible to make the non-track portions of the plane transparent to display a background layer underneath. Maybe that's what the black portions are meant for?

Color 0 on the genesis is always reserved for this, unless they are drawing to plane 0, so that's possible.
 

DaveLong

Member
Nov 2, 2017
1,199
I could have lived in a world where hardware stayed at Genesis levels much longer than it did.
 

Shaneus

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,900
I still love how much more they're able to push out of the thing compared to, say, the SNES. I'd love to see a list of technological advances/tricks/"hacks" for older consoles that push them harder than they ever should have gone.

God bless that 68000, it really was a marvel <3

I could have lived in a world where hardware stayed at Genesis levels much longer than it did.
giphy.gif

Just read that the last game came out for it in 2004, 14 years after the platform debuted. So I guess it kinda did!
 
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DaveLong

Member
Nov 2, 2017
1,199
Neo Geo was a step up in so many ways, though. It also had the benefit of those god-sized cartridges. I own a cart and CD system.

I mean, I would have been ok with 32-bit hanging around longer too minus the focus on 3D to the detriment of 2D. I feel like we've been on a path to PC gaming as console gaming ever since Xbox debuted. I'm a relic of a bygone era and while I enjoy many modern games, I rarely get the sense of wonder I got in the 16 and 32-bit eras at the sheer majesty of programmers who pushed those systems harder than anyone imagined.
 

Shaneus

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,900
Neo Geo was a step up in so many ways, though. It also had the benefit of those god-sized cartridges. I own a cart and CD system.
I was basing it solely off the hardware specs. It's using faster versions of the MD's processors and has video RAM, but that's kinda it (save for the sound chip).
 
The previous demo, from 2015, used SRAM as a window into a larger bank of external RAM (a very crude form of memory paging) that would have been prohibitively expensive back in the day. This demo, however, is using completely stock hardware, capable of running on a standard cart as it would have existed back when the Genesis was real.

My questions might be completely off the mark, but I'll ask anyways -

If they created a demo of the same game on Sega CD hardware, one that fully utilizes the capabilities of the hardware, how much of an upgrade in visuals, especially in terms of the scaling, might we be able to see?

Also, is it much more difficult to program for Sega CD than Genesis?
 

s_mirage

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,773
Birmingham, UK
My questions might be completely off the mark, but I'll ask anyways -

If they created a demo of the same game on Sega CD hardware, one that fully utilizes the capabilities of the hardware, how much of an upgrade in visuals, especially in terms of the scaling, might we be able to see?

Also, is it much more difficult to program for Sega CD than Genesis?

I don't have the experience to accurately answer your question, but until someone else does this is my $0.02. The Mega/Sega CD can perform scaling, rotation (with some limits), and Mode 7 type effects in hardware, and as it has its own RAM it should be able to generate a 256x256 pixel map. Where there may be a question mark compared to the demo is the framerate. The data produced by the CD's ASIC has to be copied into the Mega Drive/Genesis's VRAM before it can be displayed. Theoretically there's only enough bandwidth into the VRAM to manage updating the entire screen with new graphics at 15fps at best, and that doesn't take into account any other overheads. This is seen in quite a lot of ASIC heavy games where either the framerate isn't very good, or they've employed tricks (mirroring to halve the amount of transferred data, for example).

To be fair, the above would likely be true for Mode 7 type effects done in software without the CD too. That may be why the "Mode 7" track in the demo occupies almost exactly half the screen. The real F-Zero's track occupies more of the screen than that, but more data being fed into VRAM would probably reduce the framerate significantly below 30.

Check out F1 Beyond the Limit (or the Japanese version, F1 Heavenly Symphony) for a CD game that uses a Mode 7 style track but with the addition of scaling scenery. The track's probably higher resolution, but it has a lower frame rate.

If you're interested, here are a couple of blog posts by Sarah Jane Avory about Soulstar, which she coded. Visually it is possibly the most impressive game on the system.

 
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Tayaya

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
467
That is super impressive! It runs better than I was expecting and looks to be more than playable. I hope the creator coninues to refine this and that it sees a release that someone can pop onto a MiSTER setup or a MEGA SD to run on the actual hardware. I'd even pay good money for a repro cart of this!
 

Celine

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,030
That looks pretty damn good! I really hope he manages to create a full game.



Well, at least the racing segment of the Toy Story game is quite smooth. And it's exclusive to the Sega Mega Drive version!



Skip to 43:50 to see it in action.

The road doesn't rotate.

The closest racing game with rotating road on Mega Drive I can think of is the unreleased Wacky Races:
 
I don't have the experience to accurately answer your question, but until someone else does this is my $0.02. The Mega/Sega CD can perform scaling, rotation (with some limits), and Mode 7 type effects in hardware, and as it has its own RAM it should be able to generate a 256x256 pixel map. Where there may be a question mark compared to the demo is the framerate. The data produced by the CD's ASIC has to be copied into the Mega Drive/Genesis's VRAM before it can be displayed. Theoretically there's only enough bandwidth into the VRAM to manage updating the entire screen with new graphics at 15fps at best, and that doesn't take into account any other overheads. This is seen in quite a lot of ASIC heavy games where either the framerate isn't very good, or they've employed tricks (mirroring to halve the amount of transferred data, for example).

To be fair, the above would likely be true for Mode 7 type effects done in software without the CD too. That may be why the "Mode 7" track in the demo occupies almost exactly half the screen. The real F-Zero's track occupies more of the screen than that, but more data being fed into VRAM would probably reduce the framerate significantly below 30.

Check out F1 Beyond the Limit (or the Japanese version, F1 Heavenly Symphony) for a CD game that uses a Mode 7 style track but with the addition of scaling scenery. The track's probably higher resolution, but it has a lower frame rate.

If you're interested, here are a couple of blog posts by Sarah Jane Avory about Soulstar, which she coded. Visually it is possibly the most impressive game on the system.


Wow, thank you for this answer!

I also didn't know about that F1 game - indeed, the FPS is low, but impressively detailed for tech released in '91.

Man, I love Soulstar...but I can't get past one of the early levels, so I haven't been able to see the full potential of the game.

The Soulstar 32x prototype is also pretty cool to experience!
 

fiendcode

Member
Oct 26, 2017
24,932
Cool achievement but it's such a visual downgrade. Audio on the other hand, man I never get tired of god tier SNES soundtracks remixed on that YM2612.