Doesn't make sense at all. Black people been tired and still out here doing the work, and people are saying we're not doing enough.
This isn't about not doing anything. This is asking black people TO DO MORE.
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New research may show the key on how to talk someone out of bigotry
- Thread starter marmalade
- Start date
Doesn't make sense at all. Black people been tired and still out here doing the work, and people are saying we're not doing enough.
This isn't about not doing anything. This is asking black people TO DO MORE.
It's absolutely unfair. The weight is completely on their shoulders.
But...
The initiative should spearheaded by powerful allies. Read: straight white people
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All I know about you is you told me you can't go outside.
I never disagreed with that. People aren't entirely responsible for their beliefs but they are responsible for their actions.
Yes I believe I understand why they're resistant. But I'd prefer if people tried to take something more from the article and the science in general than basically nothing at all. You don't have to literally be canvassing in white trash neighborhoods but their must be SOMETHING in your life that this would apply and can help make the world better.
I said it's dangerous for me to go outside. It's only a few posts up.
This is ridiculous beyond ridiculous. If people call bigots what they are then that shows you that nobody ever wanted to try out the "peaceful" option? Have you considered that MINORITIES HAVE BEEN DOING THAT FOR YEARS AND IT DOESN'T WORK!? Like where do you get off saying this shit my dude? What even MAKES you say this shit?
May I ask, and I'm asking honestly... are you doing anything to help here personally? And if so are you a minority or someone affected yourself? Forgive me if I missed you say so already ITT.
That's fine. Just don't expect to change the bigot's mind any other way. You can wait for them to "die off"
As someone who grew up in Nowhere, North Dakota, I think a lot of people are looking at this wrongly. When you try to persuade someone (be it for political or religious reasons), you're not looking for a high percent. It isn't like a school grade where getting under 60% is a failure rate. You measure it in 1 out of 1,000 and then only if you're lucky. It's usually 1 out of 10,000 or even 100,000. And it's hard grueling exhausting work and not everyone is suited to it nor should they be expected to, especially those who are personally affected by bigotry (you don't see me trying to convert those anti-Asian to be more tolerable for instance).
Basically persuading someone is a full-time commitment and half of that is even finding someone who is willing to be persuaded as the vast majority of people are set in their beliefs and are heavily resistant to change. You aren't looking to convince everyone but rather trying to persuade one or two people and hopefully have them also try.
Again, I don't think those affected by bigotry, be they minorities or LGBT+ people, are obligated to do this. It's practically a job (and many actual professions do these persuasive techniques) and most people aren't being paid for it. But I am appreciative of those (especially those who are personally affected by bigotry) who do take them time to do this.
Also, I do think to assume that these persuasion techniques are for converted Nazi's and KKK-members only is wrong. Racism, Sexism, and anti-LGBT+ attitudes are common even among places considered left. Just look at the coronavirus thread here for proof of that.
Basically persuading someone is a full-time commitment and half of that is even finding someone who is willing to be persuaded as the vast majority of people are set in their beliefs and are heavily resistant to change. You aren't looking to convince everyone but rather trying to persuade one or two people and hopefully have them also try.
Again, I don't think those affected by bigotry, be they minorities or LGBT+ people, are obligated to do this. It's practically a job (and many actual professions do these persuasive techniques) and most people aren't being paid for it. But I am appreciative of those (especially those who are personally affected by bigotry) who do take them time to do this.
Also, I do think to assume that these persuasion techniques are for converted Nazi's and KKK-members only is wrong. Racism, Sexism, and anti-LGBT+ attitudes are common even among places considered left. Just look at the coronavirus thread here for proof of that.
This is such a privileged post.
First off, as soon as you mentioned the non-binary doorknocker I already knew they were white. Googled and it checks out. Fact of the matter is Whites rarely have that smoke for other Whites. Had they been Black and non-binary in Massachusetts, they'd have a 0% success rate and this silly idea probably would never cross their minds.
A white person has never been subject to racism, so they won't have a boiling point when trying to convert racists. Go pull up on grandma, friends, family etc.... Racism is Ya'll fucking issue and disease, not mine.
We aren't sheltered assholes experiencing racism on era. We actually live in the real world and are subject to it since birth- through every avenue in society. I spent my whole grade school years making racist white boys pick their jaws off the floor, once I got out of that, with due time I then realized that me and my people were in the four century's old spider's web known as America. There is no safe space for us .
If you must know, I don't let any homophobic shit slide near me (I'm straight) and will speak up defend, and try to convert. I've never been subject to homophobia so there is no boiling point for me on that, outside of witnessing a hate crime or something. You and other White Libs can go have fun having long talks with your people.
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Are you a minority affected by their ignorance and hate?
Are you personally doing anything here to help?
Conflating people's responses online and people's response offline is weird since it's infinitely harder to convert bigots online. The medium just isn't very good to have those kinds of conversations. Hell, how many times have any of us had a text conversation with a loved one go sour because text misses things like tone of voice or nuance? Now we want to address a hyper sensitive and personal topic with someone that has their heels dug in online and is anonymous? That's not going to woek
I also sincerely doubt minorities on this board are saying "fuck you Nazi!" to every real life Trump voter they come across. Nor do I think they're completely incapable of recognizing someone on the fence that just needs a little push to the right side. So giving them space to vent frustrations through a medium that probably wasn't going to convert anyone anyway isn't really hurting any causes.
Regular and physical interactions with people of different backgrounds is what breaks down hatred more than anything. If you're someone that became less bigoted overtime by reading ERA or whatever, I guarantee you just took the very slow way and had an open and empathetic mindset from the start.
Also mental health funding and availability is a huge component here to undoing bigotry. That's really what we're talking about here when discussing bigot conversions anyway.
I also sincerely doubt minorities on this board are saying "fuck you Nazi!" to every real life Trump voter they come across. Nor do I think they're completely incapable of recognizing someone on the fence that just needs a little push to the right side. So giving them space to vent frustrations through a medium that probably wasn't going to convert anyone anyway isn't really hurting any causes.
Regular and physical interactions with people of different backgrounds is what breaks down hatred more than anything. If you're someone that became less bigoted overtime by reading ERA or whatever, I guarantee you just took the very slow way and had an open and empathetic mindset from the start.
Also mental health funding and availability is a huge component here to undoing bigotry. That's really what we're talking about here when discussing bigot conversions anyway.
::looks at the history of America::
White people are literally willing to kill themselves as long as it punishes brown people. I'm gonna focus on the people that want help and don't want to hurt me.
I am canvassing for a presidential candidate on one of my days off. However, I also only speak to registered Democrats, so that's not a big point for me.
There is a meeting in my legislative district about a new program on reaching out to non-voting independents and Democrats that I'm interested in.
And at the very least I will think harder about using these techniques in my workplace. I work in law enforcement, and there's no shortage of crazy conservative thinking. Lots of disinformation on impeachment and Trump that I want to combat more when I can.
That's great, being politically active is a wonderful thing, but I was asking more about the direct confrontation of bigotry and ignorance as we're discussing here.
Have you ever tried/do you put that effort in directly ever? Is that included in the work you do? Does it ever work?
Some actual points from the data:
Thew new study that this thread is based on shows that deep canvassing is actually only half as effective as the last study from 2016, so claiming that the research has always been there (or something along those lines) isn't really true.
The testing was also only on changing attitudes about immigration and transphobia. I don't think it's necessarily correct to extrapolate this to all forms of bigotry, particularly race given its long and contentious history in this country. I would argue the same goes for sexism too and for homophobia, you'd still probably just get a ton of people referencing the bible.
Finally, and most importantly:
Thew new study that this thread is based on shows that deep canvassing is actually only half as effective as the last study from 2016, so claiming that the research has always been there (or something along those lines) isn't really true.
The testing was also only on changing attitudes about immigration and transphobia. I don't think it's necessarily correct to extrapolate this to all forms of bigotry, particularly race given its long and contentious history in this country. I would argue the same goes for sexism too and for homophobia, you'd still probably just get a ton of people referencing the bible.
Finally, and most importantly:
Lol this shit corny AF
This man is full of contempt because minorities dare not engage with racists on the terms he suggests
This is why so many of y'all can't be trusted. Immediately get petty when brown skin don't agree with you smh lmao
Maybe don't ask victims to do the dirty work while the white liberals get to sit on their asses?
Truly, I get what you're saying, though I can't agree. You're saying you can't fault people of color, or minorities in general, for their emotional response, then go on to assume they never really cared to make an attempt in the first place. Just to be completely clear, are you truly saying that minorities just want to feel bad for themselves by telling Uncle Clarence to his face that he's a piece of shit racist? The act of having an emotional response, which you say you don't fault them for, is itself a sign of not caring?
Excuse me? Why in the world does it matter who you are or aren't sympathetic to? I'm asking why are you acting as if the people who say they're tired and are complaining have not been constantly trying to do the convincing all their lives? ESPECIALLY WHEN THEY ARE OUTRIGHT TELLING YOU THAT'S BEEN THE CASE!
I couldn't tell you if it works in the way you're thinking. As many have pointed out, there's a low chance of success, and even the article mentions there's a timetable on how long an effective deep canvass has on someone. But at least it was enough to save the legislation.
It's not whether or not it works in that it was a huge success that single handedly saves the Democracy, but more effective than the alternative. I think I've caught coworkers off guard with being non combative on a subject. There was one coworker I had that made the insane arguments that native americans should've ever complain about European colonization because "we" (I say we because I'm white) brought them jobs and technology I think were the words used. I tried to refrain from calling that the dumbest and most ahistorical thing I've ever heard and asked her more about why jobs and technology were necessarily a good thing. I think I relayed it back to her smartphone and is she knows people that try to use less of their smartphone/TV/etc. Silly arguments if I'm being honest. I tried to wrap around to the trail of tears and such, but she very quickly reversed her talking points when I just started asking basic questions about her argument.
Like I said, no idea what she thinks now. But it wasn't ever a call out, only me best effort at getting her to unravel her thinking on her own.
It's anyone who has the power to speak up for other victims, that's not restricted to white liberals. I don't expect poc to talk racists down, but I wouldn't mind them having my back or taking the initiative to speak up against LGBTQ+ hate.
If it's a group effort, sure.
If it's asking vulnerable people to go risk everything that's a big no.
So that's great it just means that it's only needed in election time.
No need to bother anyone's ass for no reason and ask for minorities to go to bat for no reason
It's good that you stand by this via your actions, many do not.
I'm going to assume you're not ta minority directly affected as you didn't answer that question, and I hope you realize how much harder it this for them to take the initiative and reach out to the people directly harming them. And that it isn't pathetic to be too tired, frustrated, angry to even want to try.
What comfy bubble? Here?
This forum is a target for alt-right sites, A. And B, wait until February hits. It's going to be full of ignorance and sealioning in regards to anti-black racism and biases because not even self-described progressives are immune to cultural conditioning.
Bullshit that minorities have a bubble on the Internet that isn't private Discord chats. And even more bullshit you have a problem with them desiring one.
Plenty of people in this thread have said that unless we do this, nothing will get better (demonstrably false, but for the sake of argument, let's go with it). That is inherently putting a responsibility on people, or perhaps more importantly a false dichotomy: Denigrate yourself to empathize yourself with people who never have any responsibility to empathize with you to change minds, or don't and continue allowing the right to win. You can see why minorities aren't willing to put up with that, because patience and empathy are finite.
As well, my colleagues are either minorities themselves or they don't talk politics in this manner. I have very few opportunities to even enrage with close people. For the people who do have these opportunities (aka white leftists, and even centrists), they should be doing that work. But after every bullshit microaggression or even overt MAGAt gloating I face every day, or the bullshit I deal with online, I don't want to entertain bigots. And there's nothing wrong with that. If you want to, I'm not going to stop you.
Just don't drag me into it, unless you're willing to compensate me.
Individuals absolutely can and should stand up against ignorance and hate if hey have the power to. I'm a little confused by your response to my comment... I'm suggesting the absolute opposite of vulnerable people putting themselves on the line.
It's a sign of not caring about this method of empathizing with racists and getting better outcomes if they (a) shirk the responsibility of trying to go this route with people wherever they can and (b) go in the opposite direction anyway of advocating for yelling in people's faces. Obviously minorities care very deeply about these issues either way. But I do find it "pathetic" if someone in this thread follows the above narrative
I am only interested in good outcomes, not making minorities work unnecessarily. So if it's someone's position that they'll do the dirty deed of talking to racists only when it matters at election time if that's the way they see it, that's good enough for me.
I would not consider myself a minority directly affected.
You keep avoiding the point I'm trying to raise here... I'm not sure if you agree with it or disagree at this point.
Do you stand by your "pathetic" comment? Honestly asking.
Truth be told, as a Black person unless you give a shit about the White person you are speaking to (friend, in-law whatever) talking to White people about race is a colossal waste of time and energy.
My time is better spent encouraging my own people or sharing the knowledge that they've been denied in schools. I'd much rather instill pride, righteous fury, light a Black spark and watch our youth succeed than waste my time speaking words that will go in one ear and out the other.
The other thing some White Libs don't realize, is both you and a Black person can tell the racist the exact same thing in the same manner and tone. The racist asshat will predictably be less respectful, less open-minded, and more hostile when the speaker is Black.
Lol I literally have stupid friends that didn't support Kaepernick but "got it" once Rapinoe protested. That type of stupidity is uncoachable. Y'all Libs go have fun with that, I'm not going to expose myself to more racism than I need to.
My time is better spent encouraging my own people or sharing the knowledge that they've been denied in schools. I'd much rather instill pride, righteous fury, light a Black spark and watch our youth succeed than waste my time speaking words that will go in one ear and out the other.
The other thing some White Libs don't realize, is both you and a Black person can tell the racist the exact same thing in the same manner and tone. The racist asshat will predictably be less respectful, less open-minded, and more hostile when the speaker is Black.
Lol I literally have stupid friends that didn't support Kaepernick but "got it" once Rapinoe protested. That type of stupidity is uncoachable. Y'all Libs go have fun with that, I'm not going to expose myself to more racism than I need to.
Darryl Davis literally now goes to bat for white supremacists who get arrested at white supremacist terror rallies because they're his friends.... so uh I think they worked on him not vice versa.
And yet you decided to attack the thread.
Yep.
This is why Tim Wise gets paid to speak the things black and brown people have been saying at the cost of our safety for centuries.
If you're suggesting that it's the duty of minorities to educate others or face annihilation, this is what you're saying.
If we're talking about strategizing for deep canvassing, I have no problem choosing the correct people to do the correct work.
I'm not gonna ask or revile a black woman because she can't do that because she has to work to put food in her home though.
Even if her help could mean a racist gets to vote a little less racist next time.
Here's the thing, yeah?
Minorities should speak their mind, but like, why would you want someone who is seen as "the enemy" to convince the people who see them as "the enemy" that they aren't "the enemy?" That's counterproductive. Wouldn't it mean more coming from someone who they would probably see as an ally?
To be blunt: Saying "hey maybe non-whites should be treated the same as whites" would mean more to a white bigot if it came from a white person rather than a non-white person. I don't think that's even remotely a hot take.
Minorities should speak their mind, but like, why would you want someone who is seen as "the enemy" to convince the people who see them as "the enemy" that they aren't "the enemy?" That's counterproductive. Wouldn't it mean more coming from someone who they would probably see as an ally?
To be blunt: Saying "hey maybe non-whites should be treated the same as whites" would mean more to a white bigot if it came from a white person rather than a non-white person. I don't think that's even remotely a hot take.
I think you need to read my posts again.
A minority can have power in another situation where another minority is the victim. I could be in a room full of people who accept my LGBTQ+ nature and were being racist, for example, I would have power there to speak up.
And they'll be glad to provide it most of the time but it doesn't mean that they have a duty to do it either.
My problem with Daryl is that he should leave white people thinking, "if Daryl could do this, with the odds completely stacked against him, maybe I put my foot in the ring and try to better the world too?" But instead, I've seen white people use Daryl as an example to throw at people of color. "You should be more like Daryl!" Nah. Wrong takeaway.
Yep.
Fighting the self-hatred that the culture is radiating into children and adults of color is a full time job and keep people perpetually fragile. Those people should not be asked to further risk their state of being to possibly, maybe, probably not change some random white person's mind. It's just not worth the risk or pain.
This is presented as hopeful, but the best solution to racism being extreme amounts of emotional labor from whatever saintly people are capable of it, converting people one-by-one, with a decent but certainly not universal success rate, is a pretty rough reality. There is no scalable, systemic solution. Maybe you can look to ways to reduce educational and housing segregation to make these personal interactions more likely, but that's kind of it. Other than that, it's just arduous conversion, one-by-one, to make each generation incrementally better than the next. The best that's possible is what we already knew was possible.
Like, if that's the best we've got, I think it's still sort of an open question if aggressive repression of racists through social censure (i.e., cancelling) may be more socially useful than actually trying to convert racists away from their beliefs. 100 timid and ashamed racists may be better than 99 who expect people to listen to all their grievances and one former racist who's seen the light.
Like, if that's the best we've got, I think it's still sort of an open question if aggressive repression of racists through social censure (i.e., cancelling) may be more socially useful than actually trying to convert racists away from their beliefs. 100 timid and ashamed racists may be better than 99 who expect people to listen to all their grievances and one former racist who's seen the light.
User Banned (3 Months): Dismissing and antagonising minority members and perspectives in regards to bigotry.
The reason I'm avoiding the point is because I can try to illustrate my thinking but if I directly try to answer your question it'll come off as virtue signaling.
I stand by my pathetic comment in the context of a narrow subset of people, more narrow than my original comment implied: people that shirk the responsibility of engaging with bigots because they're sick of doing it (fine on its own), but then ALSO run in the other direction of calling bigots out with vitriol are pathetic. Why? Because it reveals you were either disingenuous about acknowledging the validity of the science in the first place or more concerned with getting a short-term emotional catharsis of calling someone out then letting the white liberals talking to the racists play out and produce better outcomes.
I think that both those scenarios rise to the level of pathetic. But not all that come out and so no thanks, I'm not interested are pathetic.
I don't think the thread is above reproach because I'm not directly affected. This is an ad hominem.
They also should just not think of Daryl Davis because he indeed did not do it.
I think part of it is getting the person out of the "heated" state they're in before stating your side of an issue. Unfortunately that sometimes means letting them go on their rant to completion, and THEN talking to them.
I see it happen with my dad sometimes. He may not end up agreeing with me on the spot, but he doesn't push back or pull conspiracy nonsense out of his ass if I let him calm down a bit first after letting him yammer on.
I make sure to never agree with anything he says either or act like he's giving me new info, I just listen and only answer specific questions he peppers in there, ie: "...they're going to try and throw Trump in jail. You know who Pelosi is, right?" (i nod or say yeah) "She's the one doing all this..."
I can understand how unintuitive and "wrong" it feels to work with bigots this way though.
I see it happen with my dad sometimes. He may not end up agreeing with me on the spot, but he doesn't push back or pull conspiracy nonsense out of his ass if I let him calm down a bit first after letting him yammer on.
I make sure to never agree with anything he says either or act like he's giving me new info, I just listen and only answer specific questions he peppers in there, ie: "...they're going to try and throw Trump in jail. You know who Pelosi is, right?" (i nod or say yeah) "She's the one doing all this..."
I can understand how unintuitive and "wrong" it feels to work with bigots this way though.
They don't face systemic challenge for their continued existence so yeah.
It's the MLK effect, put a minority on a pedestal while scrubbing anything from it and ask all minorities to stand to that standard to keep them down.
What if those white liberals are LGBTQ+?
It's not the duty of cis straight PoC to speak up for LGBTQ+ folk?
Then, honestly, I truly do not think you understand how hard it is for minorities to face this kind of ignorance and hate as often as they do.
It's not pathetic if a person has gotten to the point they don't want to reach out to a bigot and can only respond with anger.
So you see that you're privileged to be able to view this more objectively, and that for many of the people you're calling pathetic for only responding with anger have been oppressed by ignorance and hate their entire lives
I always liked this guys story