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purseowner

From the mirror universe
Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,444
UK
But will devs' games post-July run better on PS5 than PS4, developing with more than mere compatibility in mind?

i.e. Yakuza 7 PS4 SKU in a PS5 can compete with Yakuza 7 Series X SKU?
 
Oct 25, 2017
7,506
Am I reading this wrong?

"If a game was originally submitted to Sony before 13th July 2020, any new patch or remaster after that date would not require PS5 compatibility, but it would be "strongly recommended".

This implies to me that if a game receives a new patch or is remastered then it would be strongly recommended that it have PS5 compatibility, not that the game won't work orginally.

So for example the new CoD works on the PS5, but if they release a new patch for the game it wouldn't have to be compatible for the PS5, but it would be strongly recommended.

That doesn't say that the game won't work right? Just if a new patch comes out it could break something if they don't make sure the Patch is compatible with PS5.
 
Last edited:

natestellar

Member
Sep 16, 2018
835
I genuinely don't understand much of the concern around PS5 BC, their lead designer explained in detail the process of BC and how having it tied to the chip itself means it's not going to go obsolete. Right from Github leak we knew about PS4 and PS4 Pro Legacy Mode(s). On PS4 Pro, in case a particular game code can't take advantage of boost mode, it just runs on regular PS4 clocks. I expect the same thing to happen on PS5 whereby game codes can't run on PS5 clocks, it'll resort to PS4/PS4 Pro clocks.

Much of the 'confusion' regarding their BC is actually 'enhanced BC', and it stems from having the code run on PS5 frequency to improves frames/resolution, which they have clarified is being evaluated game-by-game basis. Exactly how Microsoft are doing as Nameless put it on last page.
 

Ocarina_117

Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,572
They literally said months ago that an overwhelming majority of PS4 games will be BC. This requirement is just to make sure PS4 games going forward work on PS5 as well so you can enjoy your games on the new console. Whats the confusion?
They said they expect the vast majority of games to work. It is no guarantee.

Plus they've not said what the state of BC will be at console launch.
 

Rndom Grenadez

Prophet of Truth
Member
Dec 7, 2017
5,640
If MS is okay in spending money with that, great for them. I personally prefer that Sony uses those resources into building new games, you know, the real reason to get a new console. If they're already making sure that my ps4 games will work on ps5, that's enough.

MS has the money to do both. They don't work from the same pool of money.
 

Firefox

Member
Oct 27, 2017
194
Yep, Sony is straight-forward (more transparent) about it.

To be fair, Microsoft's approach to Backwards Compatibility this generation has been a huge success. (360 and OG Xbox)They don't have much to prove there and have gone even further to have it working without a "boost mode" to take advantage of the hardware, HDR via machine learning and many other features.

Microsoft's BC strategy is already in place this generation so it leaves very little doubt for people on the approach for Series X BC.

news.xbox.com

Xbox Series X: The Most Powerful and Compatible Next-Gen Console with Thousands of Games at Launch - Xbox Wire

[Update 9/14/20: We’re happy to share that backward compatible titles will be coming to Xbox Series S as well as Xbox Series X. To deliver the highest quality backwards compatible experience consistent with the developer’s original intent, the Xbox Series S runs the Xbox One S version of...
 

gofreak

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,736
What were the results of the test?

Those words don't mean they have 100s of titles already working; they mean they've had the time to test 100s of titles.

What we don't know is what percentage fail, what percentage have small issues vs large ones, or how extensive the fixes have to be.

We don't have the data, only indications - of the snapshot of the top 100 games tested, Cerny said 'almost all' worked. They then said in their blog post that they expect the 'overwhelming majority' of all games to work, that they had tested hundreds, and will be testing thousands on the way to launch. You have to presume the expectation re. the 'overwhelming majority' is based on testing done to date.

Of course we will see, but I think the signalling is pretty clear that they expect thousands to be tested by launch and that they expect so far that most of those should be compatible. Another update on how testing is going would be welcome in the interim - if they could say 'thousands are working' at some point, it would bring them to where MS is on the numbers front, from a messaging point of view. And maybe they will.

So that's good news.. but it appears it all requires developers to patch games.

It doesn't. Some may require patches, not all.

To be fair, Microsoft's approach to Backwards Compatibility this generation has been a huge success. (360 and OG Xbox)They don't have much to prove there and have gone even further to have it working without a "boost mode" to take advantage of the hardware, HDR via machine learning and many other features.

Microsoft's BC strategy is already in place this generation so it leaves very little doubt for people on the approach for Series X BC.

news.xbox.com

Xbox Series X: The Most Powerful and Compatible Next-Gen Console with Thousands of Games at Launch - Xbox Wire

[Update 9/14/20: We’re happy to share that backward compatible titles will be coming to Xbox Series S as well as Xbox Series X. To deliver the highest quality backwards compatible experience consistent with the developer’s original intent, the Xbox Series S runs the Xbox One S version of...

To be fair, their BC support has been partial. It's been very good where it is working, but it's not all encompassing. It doesn't demonstrate an ability to bring over entire catalogs across hetereogenous architectures, seamlessly. And MS has slightly danced around the question of whether all games will be compatible. Arguably Sony has been a little bit more forthcoming about that - and maybe that's indeed just because Sony's compatibility rate will be less than Microsoft's, or because Sony has less confidence because of less abstraction in their systems. Or maybe it's just because they're being more conservative in their messaging.
 

Grooski

Member
Oct 28, 2017
113
Holy shit. People going crazy over a certification process? Man these console wars are bringing out the stupid.
 

Iwao

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,800
How have people extracted concern out of this?

Sony has their own internal testing going on for PS4 titles.
This is a good thing.

Any PS4 game released after July, the developer is responsible for the testing of it, and not them.
This is a good thing.

It means Sony can focus more on their own testing and not be bogged down as much with newer titles.
This is a good thing.
 

Minthara

Freelance Market Director
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
7,940
Montreal
This is pointing to bad practices being allowed on the code side of things. I think a reasonable assumption to make is that the faster CPU is resulting in unpredictable results due to race conditions or general out of order execution.

I think there would be 3 aspects that are at fault here:

1) Sony's tools/API allowing these bad practices in the first place
2) Sony letting bad practices through certification
3) Developers using bad practices in their code

This SHOULD NOT be a thing. Code should never, ever be tied directly to the frequency of your hardware. We've seen this problem consistently from Japanese developers even in modern times. It can be somewhat excused due to the immaturity of Sony's architecture and dev tools, but it hasn't been an issue on PC in decades. Microsoft is likely in a better spot due to DirectX being a far more mature platform for development.

Certification isn't what you think it is. Certification cares very little if a game runs at 20 FPS , 45 FPS or 60 FPS, Cert is there to make sure games don't crash and delete the entire system hard drive or that plugging in a second controller doesn't cause the game to freak out.

Both Microsoft and Sony use similar (but still different enough cause of things like Kinect) cert processes.

Tying frame rate to game speed and other similar issues are not even what I would call "bad coding practices". The reality of game development is that a lot of game developers are focused on getting that project out the door, getting hopefully enough money to make a profit, and then moving on to the next project. Things like making sure a game works with a new console 7 years away is not what a lot of developers are thinking about, especially when you look at independent developers barely surviving from game to game. This is why porting takes time and money, code just doesn't magically work between platforms, especially when a game has built entirely for a specific platform or specific technical parameters in mind.

It's not really Sony or Microsoft or Nintendo's job to reject games built this way, the most they can do is warn developers that they may run into future projects with enhancements/new consoles if those consoles support backwards compatibility and leave it at that.
 

Transistor

Hollowly Brittle
Administrator
Oct 25, 2017
37,167
Washington, D.C.
Your right the article doesn't but if it was fairly simple or a quick process to make compatible sony would just do it themselves. This at the very least implies its not that simple and they would rather offload the work moving forward.
Sony can't force developers to use a newer SDK for older games.

Literally all this is doing is saying "hey, after this date, use this SDK that ensures the game plays nice with PS5."
 

Joo

Member
May 25, 2018
3,876
No, it does not imply that will be the case at launch. If it was meant to say at launch it would say "at launch".
You can keep debating that over and over again with nothing to back it up, but here's the same thing I just replied to someone:
Yeah, but that's exactly what the statement implies, not the other way around. It would pretty much be a majorly misleading statement if that weren't the case, or so it would be perceived as and that's pretty much marketing 101 to not make statements like that, and we can rest easy that it's something Sony's marketing department is definitely aware of.

There's just simply nothing to discuss here at the moment. It's just deliberate obtusity to continue debating what's the case here, as it just comes down the basically saying that Sony must be lying.
 

Deleted member 64666

User requested account closure
Banned
Mar 20, 2020
1,051
I just want the console to play at least the games that I bought digitally. I was a bit annoyed when I realized that my PS4 would not show any of my PS3 games. So, it's one step in the right direction hopefully.
 

crimilde

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,004
What is going on in this thread lol.

Same thing happened when Pro launched. Starting from July devs should use an updated sdk to ensure 100% compatibility with PS5 for their new games and not require it to pass BC testing like old games.

How is this cause for concern?
 

Mubrik_

Member
Dec 7, 2017
2,725
Your right the article doesn't but if it was fairly simple or a quick process to make compatible sony would just do it themselves. This at the very least implies its not that simple and they would rather offload the work moving forward.

its a certification process...
what's next sony make the games themselves?
 

exodus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,951
I don't think submitting for certification is the same as what you are asking for, essentially, a code review. If it runs, it runs.
Certification is certainly not just quality assurance testing. It should absolutely involve code review. If it runs but it accesses the camera and streams all your data to a server in China, would that be okay? Certification is a lot more than just play testing a game.

However, the API should be restricting these bad practices in the first place. There is a cost to giving your devs full low level access to the hardware, even if it can result in better performance.
 

Deleted member 15973

User-requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,172
No, that's not what it means at all.
Not even remotely. How did you come up with that?
Read a little more in this thread. Thats not even remotely what was said.
giphy.gif


Yes. New PS4 games won't work on PS4 if they're released on or after that date. They're doing it to bolster exclusive games for PS5. Ghosts just became PS5 exclusive.
Glad you understood :)
 

Sprat

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,684
England
Can someone who knows more on this topic clarify this? I am ignorant on this, but to me it seems like Sony mandating that their developers do all the work to make PS4 games compatible on PS5 basically means that unless PS4 games were specifically built to run on PS5, a lot of them won't work at all. That's basically the implication here, which is worrying...
They will in the ps4 BC profile.

This is for them to work and use the ps5 hw with no restrictions
 

PapaJustify

Member
Nov 3, 2017
1,098
Germany
Going to be honest, people who are dismissing people's concerns are getting extremely annoying.

Like it or not, there is a very strong reason to be extremely pessimistic or worried about Sony handling BC. Their track record is utter shit let alone this quote from Jim Ryan

Would be easier to ignore if people wouldn't hijack nearly every thread about Sony to express their concerns about BC.
 

CliveLH

Member
Jun 22, 2019
2,225
We have a 9 page post already lol. Are you sure Sony is being clear with it comunication?
I feel this thread is like opposite Xbox thread. Usually it's Microsoft completing mixing up/butchering its messaging and having some fans explains to you that it's all clear, you're just pretending to not understand.
 

ForZoey

Member
May 29, 2019
66
They have cleared the air. While I agree 100% that their initial messaging was messy, updating that messaging by saying that the "vast majority of the 4000+ PS4 titles will work" is pretty clear. Some people are still hanging onto multiple things, like the "100 playable games" and stuff. And this new stuff is simply telling developers that they have to use a certain SDK going forward that will pretty much ensure compatibility. It's making a mountain out of a molehill, in all honesty.

Exactly. Sony is guaranteeing all PS4 games from July play on PS5 regardless of their backward compatibility work.

Sometimes it feels like people are purposely spreading confusion and unnecessary concern.

OP sets a negative tone then bails from the thread. It's getting silly.
 

poklane

Member
Oct 25, 2017
27,932
the Netherlands
Am I reading this wrong?

"If a game was originally submitted to Sony before 13th July 2020, any new patch or remaster after that date would not require PS5 compatibility, but it would be "strongly recommended".

This implies to me that if a game receives a new patch or is remastered then it would be strongly recommended that it have PS5 compatibility, not that the game won't work orginally.

So for example the new CoD works on the PS5, but if they release a new patch for the game it wouldn't have to be compatible for the PS5, but it would be strongly recommended.

That doesn't say that the game won't work right? Just if a new patch comes out it could break something if they don't make sure the Patch is compatible with PS5.
Next paragraph it says that once a game is PS5 compatible it has to stay that way
If a game was originally submitted to Sony after 13th July 2020, any future patch or remaster to that game would need to keep PS5 compatibility. Once a game is PS5 compatible, it must stay so.
I can't imagine Sony would be okay with a patch breaking the PS5 compatible version of a game, even if that game was submitted before July 13th. I've also asked Tom Phillips (writer of the article) on Twitter just to be sure.
Edit: he replied.

Yeah, so if something is already PS5-compatible before July 13th, it mandates that any future patch must maintain that compatibility. They can't break something/deliberately remove it later.
 

Bradwaung

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
136
They have cleared the air. While I agree 100% that their initial messaging was messy, updating that messaging by saying that the "vast majority of the 4000+ PS4 titles will work" is pretty clear. Some people are still hanging onto multiple things, like the "100 playable games" and stuff. And this new stuff is simply telling developers that they have to use a certain SDK going forward that will pretty much ensure compatibility. It's making a mountain out of a molehill, in all honesty.



Not even remotely. How did you come up with that?
Saying we expect thousands of games will work eventually and saying thousands of games will work at launch isn't the same thing.

I think people want to know which games or at least how many are going to work the day, the week, the month the console launches.
 

Phellps

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,810
Your understanding is 100% correct, this is just Sony ensuring that games submitted for certification on PS4 from July 13th run just fine on PS5. And yet, some people twist this into a negative thing.
They're twisting it because they completely misunderstand the situation. They think it's Sony's responsibility to ensure every PS4 game released runs flawlessly on the PS5.

The flaw in that is that:

  • They think like that because they believe Microsoft is going to fix Xbox One titles that don't run on the Series X from the get go. There has been nothing pointing towards that.
  • And they also believe the above is true because Microsoft introduced tweaks and improvements to Xbox 360 and OG Xbox titles on the Xbox One. They fail to realize that those games are running on emulators, therefore the games think they're running on the hardware they were meant for, which prevents hardware incompatibility. Most console emulators available on PC have had improvements such as texture filtering and resolution for decades now, so this is nothing new. But no emulator can make a game run differently than it's supposed to.
  • Which leads them to believe Microsoft is personally going into the games' source codes and fixing shit, which isn't true or possible, because they obviously don't have access to the source code of those games.
So when Sony demands that starting July, any PS4 title sent for certification must be tested by the developers for PS5 compatibility (which is not emulated via software, therefore it can have issues and the developers are the only ones who can fix them), people for some reason think that means Sony's BC solution is an afterthought that will severely underdeliver or something.
 

Elandyll

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
8,825
How is this a mess? I don't understand where people are getting the doom and gloom from
Yeah me either.
It's simple, past that date the onus won't be on Sony anymore to test games and make sure they work on PS5 in case a dev uses crazy hardware tied tricks to pull out feats that might make it incompatible with PS5. I can't imagine this being a problem to 99% + of devs really.
It's standard procedure to let devs know we're moving on to next gen, and that this time bc is definitely on the menu.

In short, if you are making a PS4-only game that starts officially QA after mid July, either you did it by the book which should make it compatible by default, or you make sure it works on PS5 which is a benefit to the dev anyway, and Sony said they would help devs test it ...
 

MrKlaw

Member
Oct 25, 2017
33,059
all this means is - if you submit your PS4 game now, you have to certify its been tested and works on PS5.

It doesn't mean previous games are any more/less likely to work - its just a cert checkbox.
 

Hardvlade

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
2,444
It's not like MS has done complete BC also for the One
only 39 titles for OG Xbox and 568 titles for 360
It seems every console manufacturer is having issues and using their own policies to get the most compatibility
ill wait till release to see what sony has in offer for BC
I'm not really worried

All of the Xbox One games will run on the Xbox Series X they're not on a case by case basis like with 360/OG, the only exception I can see to this would be Kinect based games since I don't think Microsoft will provide support for it, the only ones that are limited are the Xbox 360 and original Xbox games since they are emulated. At least as far as we know Sony isn't tackling previous generations (PS1/PS2/PS3), but I hope that changes somehow.

Wait- is this true?

Based on threads here, I thought Microsoft pretty much had their complete back catalog supported and everything was just automatically backwards compatible? It's on a game by game basis?

This is only for OG Xbox and Xbox 360. This won't be the case for Xbox One games, Xbox One games will be available on the Xbox Series X at launch, like I mentioned above. The only exception I could see would be Kinect based games since I don't think they've mentioned anything about it. The case by case for Xbox One games would be only for enhancements.

----------------

Back on topic: Sure the messaging has been a bit messy on Sony's part, but the console hasn't been fully revealed. I'm sure they'll come out and talk about this when they talk about the enhancement their doing to some of the titles. I'm not worried about it.
 

Zedark

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,719
The Netherlands
It strikes me as a bit weird that a game developer who is not developing for PS4 would be mandated to also make it work on another system just because Sony promised PS4 BC on PS5. In that case, you would expect the onus to be on Sony, right, instead of on the dev studio. What happens if the game is not compatible? Is Sony going to force the devs to change their code so that it supports the system they weren't targeting? I would imagine such bugs ought to be for Sony to solve instead.

Haven't read all page of the thread, so maybe I missed an explanation of this, though.

For the consumer, such mandates are great of course, but the question is whether Sony is forcing devs to carry the load of a feature they are using to sell their new system.
 

DigSCCP

Banned
Nov 16, 2017
4,201
What were the results of the test?

Those words don't mean they have 100s of titles already working; they mean they've had the time to test 100s of titles.

What we don't know is what percentage fail, what percentage have small issues vs large ones, or how extensive the fixes have to be.

We do know Sony seems confident that EVENTUALLY most of the catalog will be BC. So that's good news.. but it appears it all requires developers to patch games.

Maybe most games just work fine.. maybe most don't work fine.. we really don't know, because Sony has been vague.

Games won´t have to be patched.
Patched games mean : PS5 Native Mode.
Non patched games mean : PS4/Pro Legacy Mode.
PS5 Native Mode is like a Pro patch with enhacements for PS4 games.
Non patched games will use Boost Mode just to take dynamic res/FPS at their cap with no other enhacements ( like textures, shadow quality, AF, etc etc that are supposed to come with patches for PS5 Native Mode ) besides loading time that will come naturally with the SSD.
The thing is : just like with PS4 Pro boost mode some titles may not work properly because of the aditional power, in this case the Boost mode have to be disabled and the game has to run like it runs on the base platform.
What´s crazy about the whole discussion on this thread is : Sony is assuring that July fowards all PS4 games have to have a PS5 Native Mode which is a great thing and still somehow people are twisting it to some bad news.
 

TheModestGun

Banned
Dec 5, 2017
3,781
Good god. This... AGAIN?

Guys I'm pretty certain this is not about back compat, I'm pretty sure this is about people being able to have the PS5 version if they purchase PS4 versions if they are games released after that date.

or just certification as well.
 

Transistor

Hollowly Brittle
Administrator
Oct 25, 2017
37,167
Washington, D.C.
Saying we expect thousands of games will work eventually and saying thousands of games will work at launch isn't the same thing.

I think people want to know which games or at least how many are going to work the day, the week, the month the console launches.
Even Microsoft hasn't said that 100% of games will work, nor have they said which games will work. Both companies are legally covering their asses

It's getting hard to keep track on who's sarcastic or not.
Tell me about it.
 
Oct 25, 2017
7,506
Next paragraph it says that once a game is PS5 compatible it has to stay that way

I can't imagine Sony would be okay with a patch breaking the PS5 compatible version of a game, even if that game was submitted before July 13th. I've also asked Tom Phillips (writer of the article) on Twitter just to be sure.

I get that, but I am talking about the games before the July 13th date, I should have said last years CoD to clarify.
 

Ocarina_117

Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,572
Imagine giving corporations the benefit of the doubt and going in on consumers wanting clarification.

Imagine shilling like that.
 

Servbot24

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
43,138
Holy shit. People going crazy over a certification process? Man these console wars are bringing out the stupid.
Fan should not have as much access to information as they do. People will go crazy over something literally as basic as a game engineer changing their LinkedIn profile.

Imagine giving corporations the benefit of the doubt and going in on consumers wanting clarification.

Imagine shilling like that.
Calm down. The PS5 event is literally next week.