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Best gym leader

  • #TeamBea - Sword Exclusive

  • #TeamAllister - Shield Exclusive


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Spork4000

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
8,520
You think every Pokemon title going forward is going to be on the same hardware, or have the same technical requirements? Kinda naive.

That's not how 3D models work though. You can still use the same models irregardless of the technical requirements of the system. The only reason to change them imo is if the switch saw significantly weaker than the 3DS so they'd have to simplify them. Of the ones we've seen they've added no visible extra geometry, which would be the point of redoing a model on a higher power system. I can see a situation where they did redo them, but imo all of those look worse than if they just reused the same models and lied about it.
 

Charamiwa

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,056
At the very least, it's certainly not remade from scratch. If I give them all the credit in the world I could see them having to rework heavily all of them for it to work in Sword and Shield but clearly the 3DS models are still in there.
 

Deleted member 2669

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,044
They couldn't import models to a Switch game? So what happened with Let's Go? All the Gen 1 Pokemon were just coincidentally compatible along with their Mega and Alola forms?
 

GreenMamba

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,306
And this is all ignoring that this is not a policy dictated by new hardware growing pains--they already said that they had flirted with doing this for Sun & Moon, and those were definitely the same damn models from X & Y. And they've also said that this is the new policy for all mainline games going forward, presumably including games in the same generation as each other.

So what will be the excuse when your Buneary can't be transported to a hypothetical Gen VIII Diamond & Pearl remake?

You mean the post launch patches they said they hadn't ruled out? Those patches?
Hadn't ruled out but refuse to commit to, as if there is any other valid answer but "yes."
 

TreeMePls

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,258
So what they're saying is that when making the first mainseries Pokemon games on Switch, they purposefully went through painstaking effort to make sure that the models look exactly like they came fresh off the 3DS.

Like, what the fuck is even happening here.
It isnt every day that people defend with the "They really are that stupid!" option
 

AzureFlame

Member
Oct 30, 2017
4,253
Kuwait
Imagine a pokemon game with this quality of music.



To be honest Let's Go almost got there but not sure about Sw & Sh, soo far from what i heard doesn't sound as good quality wise.
 

Ushojax

Member
Oct 30, 2017
5,929
You mean the post launch patches they said they hadn't ruled out? Those patches?

"Not ruling it out" is a polite way of saying no. Masuda was very clear at E3 that the new plan for the franchise was for each new game to have its own curated set of Pokemon. Perhaps that will change but if it does they will have to completely reevaluate their development plans for the future. Game Freak do not do post launch content, as soon as a game comes out they start work on the next one.
 

Joqu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,030
The Waffle Kingdom
Yep. Same with this Arcanine model:

arcanineoldmvkdf.png

21minutesofpokemafjwl.jpg


They did upscale and edited the textures though. (notice how one of the black stripes is gone in SwSh)

Yeah, texture-wise it's clear they have been reworking the models. I'm sure there have been other tweaks as well. But the identical vertice edges are literally visible to the naked eye. Anyone who's ignoring that is being willfully ignorant. They absolutely are reworking things, but it's just not done from scratch.

And for the record I'm not even saying that means it would have been "easy" to include the cut Pokemon. I'm sure they have been reworking plenty of things behind the scenes and that we'll find model differences with some Pokemon. I'm sure there are plenty of new animations we don't know about. I am disappointed by the current situation, but that doesn't mean I think they're being incompetent here. I'm willing to believe they had to make the decision to cut Pokemon for a good reason.
 

ArchedThunder

Uncle Beerus
Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,062
Yeah, texture-wise it's clear they have been reworking the models. I'm sure there have been other tweaks as well. But the identical vertice edges are literally visible to the naked eye. Anyone who's ignoring that is being willfully ignorant. They absolutely are reworking things, but it's just not done from scratch.

And for the record I'm not even saying that means it would have been "easy" to include the cut Pokemon. I'm sure they have been reworking plenty of things behind the scenes and that we'll find model differences with some Pokemon. I'm sure there are plenty of new animations we don't know about. I am disappointed by the current situation, but that doesn't mean I think they're being incompetent here. I'm willing to believe they had to make the decision to cut Pokemon for a good reason.
The new textures seem to just be redrawn right over the old ones, or they are potentially from a higher res source texture that the 3DS textures were downgraded from, which is entirely possible since we've seen the same models with higher res textures in other games.
There are some changes though, like removing that one black stripe, but nothing major.
 

JustinP

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,343
Aside from the smoother anti-aliasing and the more subtle curved edges, yeah, it's exactly the same. Hell, there's clearly more polygons in that Lucario that anything that's been seen on the 3DS. The presence of jaggies doesn't mean anything; even Super Mario Odyssey and BotW have them.
anti-aliasing and jaggies aren't part of meshes. same mesh can be rendered with or without anti aliasing.
 

TyraZaurus

Member
Nov 6, 2017
4,457
Hadn't ruled out but refuse to commit to, as if there is any other valid answer but "yes."

There's multiple factors determining when or where they can give an answer, including whether or not they get the go-ahead for it. Game Freak is one of three companies that control Pokemon, and the titles are published by TPC and Nintendo. Before you go and say "But Game Freak owns part of TPC", that doesn't mean they necessarily control over decision they make, and ultimately, this decision is decided upon by more than just them as a single party.

So, yeah, perfectly valid reasons for not committing to it.

That's not how 3D models work though. You can still use the same models irregardless of the technical requirements of the system. The only reason to change them imo is if the switch saw significantly weaker than the 3DS so they'd have to simplify them. Of the ones we've seen they've added no visible extra geometry, which would be the point of redoing a model on a higher power system. I can see a situation where they did redo them, but imo all of those look worse than if they just reused the same models and lied about it.

Look, the predecessor to this board used to throw around stuff like "Breath of the Wild looks like a Wii game", and for a long time, I saw stuff like "there's no way the Nintendo Switch can be more powerful than the 360 or PS3". No matter how I feel about this, I'm not gonna take the word of a bunch of people eyeballing something over an actual dev's claims. We're all playing armchair game developer here, even me (and I'm perfectly willing to admit my earlier analysis of Lucario adds up to bupkis) and after this fandom has been rushing to catch GF in lies while cherry picking quotes out of context, making judgements off of bad quality streams, and just plain obfuscating information or not attempting to claim it, I'm gonna need a lot more than y'all are giving me. This whole mess has treated untruths like "Game Freak doesn't hire/should hire more staff" and various other fallacious statements like they're gospel, when in fact the reality is true, so frankly, Masuda has my faith here.

There's only so much one can take before one is willing to take yet another claim that GF is dishonest or "up to something" seriously.
 

TreeMePls

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,258
There's multiple factors determining when or where they can give an answer, including whether or not they get the go-ahead for it. Game Freak is one of three companies that control Pokemon, and the titles are published by TPC and Nintendo. Before you go and say "But Game Freak owns part of TPC", that doesn't mean they necessarily control over decision they make, and ultimately, this decision is decided upon by more than just them as a single party.

So, yeah, perfectly valid reasons for not committing to it.
If they had any plans on doing content updates for the missing Pokemon they wouldn't have stated that this is going to be the policy going forward
 

ArchedThunder

Uncle Beerus
Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,062
There's multiple factors determining when or where they can give an answer, including whether or not they get the go-ahead for it. Game Freak is one of three companies that control Pokemon, and the titles are published by TPC and Nintendo. Before you go and say "But Game Freak owns part of TPC", that doesn't mean they necessarily control over decision they make, and ultimately, this decision is decided upon by more than just them as a single party.

So, yeah, perfectly valid reasons for not committing to it.



Look, the predecessor to this board used to throw around stuff like "Breath of the Wild looks like a Wii game", and for a long time, I saw stuff like "there's no way the Nintendo Switch can be more powerful than the 360 or PS3". No matter how I feel about this, I'm not gonna take the word of a bunch of people eyeballing something over an actual dev's claims. We're all playing armchair game developer here, even me (and I'm perfectly willing to admit my earlier analysis of Lucario adds up to bupkis) and after this fandom has been rushing to catch GF in lies while cherry picking quotes out of context, making judgements off of bad quality streams, and just plain obfuscating information or not attempting to claim it, I'm gonna need a lot more than y'all are giving me. This whole mess has treated untruths like "Game Freak doesn't hire/should hire more staff" and various other fallacious statements like they're gospel, when in fact the reality is true, so frankly, Masuda has my faith here.

There's only so much one can take before one is willing to take yet another claim that GF is dishonest or "up to something" seriously.
Multiple people who work in game dev, modeling and animation have chimed in on this and said that what Game Freak is saying doesn't make sense.
Someone only needs to have a very basic understanding of 3D models to know that what Ohmori said wasn't true.
The models were remade from scratch?

Well....

That changes things...
They weren't
 

TyraZaurus

Member
Nov 6, 2017
4,457
If they had any plans to do this they wouldn't have stated that this is going to be the policy going forward

I mean, that statement can still be true and post launch support being part of it? That just means that the base games would repeatedly release without the full roster.

Multiple people who work in game dev, modeling and animation have chimed in on this and said that what Game Freak is saying doesn't make sense.
Someone only needs to have a very basic understanding of 3D models to know that what Ohmori said wasn't true.

I don't know who any of you are, anyone's credentials, or what anyone has made. Not to mention, all of those fields run the wide gamut of experience, information, and perspectives. What would you have me do? Take what is essentially saying "trust me", and your word is equal to that of the people actually working on the game? After this whole issue has, repeatedly, been full of half truths, hearsay, and emotion being put on the same level as fact? I'm sorry, but I need more. I need an actual technical breakdown to convince me, on the level of Digital Foundry, not some people on a message board.

This kind of skepticism is what the other side has earned. When one side of the argument can't even bother to make sure all the information is accurately conveyed to the people, and clearly manipulates facts (lack of proper translation, spreading of erroneous information about the size of development teams) and perspectives (cherry picking quotes out of context, as has been shown with Masuda's interviews and everything related to Gear Project/Town) to further an agenda, I don't think such a reaction is unwarranted.
 
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Horohorohoro

Member
Jan 28, 2019
6,724
Why is the "fact" that they couldn't transfer over Pokemon models so they had to make new ones that look almost identical to the 3DS models supposed to somehow be a defense of this game, by the way? It just makes Game Freak look worse.
 

ArchedThunder

Uncle Beerus
Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,062
Why is the "fact" that they couldn't transfer over Pokemon models so they had to make new ones that look almost identical to the 3DS models supposed to somehow be a defense of this game, by the way? It just makes Game Freak look worse.
I guess people would rather think that Game Freak are incompetent than think that Ohmori lied to them.
 

Deleted member 41713

User requested account deletion
Banned
Apr 4, 2018
188
That whole thing about having to remake the models from scratch just sounds like damage control or excuses. They should just be honest and say that their stubborn corporate culture will not have more than 200 employees, half are working on town, and with the limited remaining staff and tight deadlines they had to give us less in SS. Pokemon has a strong brand name so it'll sell really well even if 500K of people opt to not get it, millions others will still buy. At least that communication would be honest and transparent.
 

Rockets

Member
Sep 12, 2018
3,011
Gonna have to call bs on the models being made from scratch because they couldn't port the 3DS ones. Let's Go models were ported from 3DS and looked fine.
 

ArchedThunder

Uncle Beerus
Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,062
That whole thing about having to remake the models from scratch just sounds like damage control or excuses. They should just be honest and say that their stubborn corporate culture will not have more than 200 employees, half are working on town, and with the limited remaining staff and tight deadlines they had to give us less in SS. Pokemon has a strong brand name so it'll sell really well even if 500K of people opt to not get it, millions others will still buy. At least that would be honest and transparent.
I doubt Town has half of their studio working on it, but a significant number of people are probably working on Gen 4 remakes.
 

Spork4000

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
8,520
Look, the predecessor to this board used to throw around stuff like "Breath of the Wild looks like a Wii game", and for a long time, I saw stuff like "there's no way the Nintendo Switch can be more powerful than the 360 or PS3". No matter how I feel about this, I'm not gonna take the word of a bunch of people eyeballing something over an actual dev's claims. We're all playing armchair game developer here, even me (and I'm perfectly willing to admit my earlier analysis of Lucario adds up to bupkis) and after this fandom has been rushing to catch GF in lies while cherry picking quotes out of context, making judgements off of bad quality streams, and just plain obfuscating information or not attempting to claim it, I'm gonna need a lot more than y'all are giving me. This whole mess has treated untruths like "Game Freak doesn't hire/should hire more staff" and various other fallacious statements like they're gospel, when in fact the reality is true, so frankly, Masuda has my faith here.

There's only so much one can take before one is willing to take yet another claim that GF is dishonest or "up to something" seriously.

I mean, that's fair. I will add that I was on the opposite off all of those arguments. I'm a computer engineer by degree and for the past several years have worked in 3D visualization. I'm not an animator but I've seen what redoing the same models from scratch for certain purposes can yield. The reason this specific quote has put a bee in my bonnet is I feel like gamefreak is gaslighting their fan base. Tin-foil-hat-y sure, but for what I do and for what I've seen this feels like someone pissing on my head and telling me it's raining.
 

Joqu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,030
The Waffle Kingdom
The new textures seem to just be redrawn right over the old ones, or they are potentially from a higher res source texture that the 3DS textures were downgraded from, which is entirely possible since we've seen the same models with higher res textures in other games.
There are some changes though, like removing that one black stripe, but nothing major.

You're right, but to be fair I don't think there's anything wrong with that. And I like that they're tweaking the textures all the same, that black stripe wasn't present in the artwork and Minccino's more accurate due to the tweaks to its face as well. I really do appreciate that stuff.

Look, the predecessor to this board used to throw around stuff like "Breath of the Wild looks like a Wii game", and for a long time, I saw stuff like "there's no way the Nintendo Switch can be more powerful than the 360 or PS3". No matter how I feel about this, I'm not gonna take the word of a bunch of people eyeballing something over an actual dev's claims. We're all playing armchair game developer here, even me (and I'm perfectly willing to admit my earlier analysis of Lucario adds up to bupkis) and after this fandom has been rushing to catch GF in lies while cherry picking quotes out of context, making judgements off of bad quality streams, and just plain obfuscating information or not attempting to claim it, I'm gonna need a lot more than y'all are giving me. This whole mess has treated untruths like "Game Freak doesn't hire/should hire more staff" and various other fallacious statements like they're gospel, when in fact the reality is true, so frankly, Masuda has my faith here.

There's only so much one can take before one is willing to take yet another claim that GF is dishonest or "up to something" seriously.

I understand why you're approaching this the way you are, but the similarities in that comparison picture of Arcanine Yiazmat posted are plain to see. You just don't get that kind of result if the models aren't based on the same source, and it's frustrating to see that people are denying that. Yes, there are plenty of bad arguments to be made due to it and by all means argue against them, but we're way past eyeballing here.
 

Omegamon

Alt Account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,884
The whole "making the models from scratch and they happen to look exactly the same" doesn't make sense when Let's Go worked fine and those models are used in Go and arcade games, it makes zero sense.
 

ArchedThunder

Uncle Beerus
Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,062
You're right, but to be fair I don't think there's anything wrong with that. And I like that they're tweaking the textures all the same, that black stripe wasn't present in the artwork and Minccino's more accurate due to the tweaks to its face as well. I really do appreciate that stuff.
For sure, I'm just saying as far as we've seen so far it's not massive changes or anything that would take a ridiculous amount of resources to do. It's literally the perfect work to outsource even.
 

XaviConcept

Art Director for Videogames
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
4,907
Well, I told yall a month ago that all models would have to be remade from scratch but some people here were still clinging to some form of the "they're lazy" arguments

Let me be blunt, if you're not a developer (and even if you are) you should not rely on the eye test to ascertain if people are reusing assets or not. Youll be right sometimes but in terms of "dev time spent" it all usually evens out due to other shit you have to do
 

Spork4000

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
8,520
Well, I told yall a month ago that all models would have to be remade from scratch but some people here were still clinging to some form of the "they're lazy" arguments

Let me be blunt, if you're not a developer (and even if you are) you should not rely on the eye test to ascertain if people are reusing assets or not

For the record, I don't think they're lazy. I do think they're a small team that manages to put out two or more games a year and when you do that you have to prioritize. Not sure if it was a management thing, a technical thing or anything else. We just end up with incredibly similar results as what came before without an obvious quality boost, so it's fun to speculate.
 

ArchedThunder

Uncle Beerus
Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,062
Well, I told yall a month ago that all models would have to be remade from scratch but some people here were still clinging to some form of the "they're lazy" arguments

Let me be blunt, if you're not a developer (and even if you are) you should not rely on the eye test to ascertain if people are reusing assets or not. Youll be right sometimes but in terms of "dev time spent" it all usually evens out due to other shit you have to do
Except the models don't have to be remade and it's very clear they are the same models. They are a 1 to 1 match, if they remade them from scratch they wasted time and money for no reason.
It's just like Let's Go and Go, they are the same models.
 

Pekola

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,507
Anyways

Which region of Sword and Shield will you be getting? I see Amazon Japan has already started getting bundles and double packs up for pre-order.

Personally? I wish I could go to the Pokémon Center in Japan and pre-order. The figures and the artbook look really nice ;(
 

Ushojax

Member
Oct 30, 2017
5,929
Well, I told yall a month ago that all models would have to be remade from scratch but some people here were still clinging to some form of the "they're lazy" arguments

Let me be blunt, if you're not a developer (and even if you are) you should not rely on the eye test to ascertain if people are reusing assets or not. Youll be right sometimes but in terms of "dev time spent" it all usually evens out due to other shit you have to do

The models have not been remade from scratch. Why on earth would they redo them from scratch targeting a powerful HD console only to end up with models that look like the 3DS ones with improved textures?

Now perhaps touching up the textures is what they meant by "redoing" the models, but clearly the models themselves are the same.
 

Serif

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
3,793
As whether the models awere redone or not, I think all of you should read JustinP's post from the last thread.

That's a good post, I think it's worth reposting here for visibility:

JustinP said:
Uhh, 3D models are very portable. There's standardized formats that can bake in both the mesh, rigs, and animations — if you need a different format, you just export it to the different format from the source app (Maya, etc) — and yes you could even automate this process with a script to quickly convert thousands of assets. The idea you're suggesting that you have to remake a model from scratch or even re-rig the mesh to get it into a different engine is just bizarre. Like, what do you think happens to the rig and animations in Maya (or whatever app they use to author the assets) when they started working on SwSh? Disappear? No.

No, CPU architecture has nothing to do with models. Again, these are standardized formats -- you write an importer to import 3D assets like you would images, sound files, etc -- you don't reinvent a new 3D asset format every time you make a new engine just like you wouldn't reinvent jpg, png, tga, wav, ogg, mp3, etc.

And for what changes CPU architecture did require (in engine code, mostly), they already had Switch experience with Go P/E — that was supposed to be the transition game.

Maybe they did rebuild the models from scratch, but it would be a creative choice -- it wouldn't be mandated by all these reasons you try to give. And judging by the footage we've seen, I'm still skeptical. Take Gyrados for example -- even the model's topology looks identical. If they rebuilt that model for Switch, why leave in the low poly joints in the whiskers? If they were recreated from scratch, they were recreated to match the old model as close as possible... and I assume Game Freak is smart enough to not waste all that time recreating assets they already have.

boudai

iu

BVi1VRN.png

(can even see that the part where it starts to curl is a bit squished in both the 3DS model and the Switch model, suggesting they're using the same animations that deform the whiskers the same way -- it'd actually be quite a lot more effort, an insane amount of work, really, to literally recreate the same model and animations from scratch and have them match up so closely instead of naturally having different proportions, topology, and animations)

Either way, the reasons you provide for why they'd have to recreate or re-rig models is nonsense. If all you claim was true, they would have had to redo all the models and animations for Pokemon Go as well.
 

Omegamon

Alt Account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,884
That's one of the game dev you said people had to listen to, you know

Which is it? Who are we supposed to take as an authority here?
JustinP gave proof with the Gyarados model to support the idea of the models are the same. I would like if Raging Spaniard did the same beacuse I'm genuinely curious about the models being new.
 

ArchedThunder

Uncle Beerus
Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,062
When you can match the 3DS models to the angles of a shot from SwSh and the vertex edges line up perfectly it's clear they are the same model.
Yep. Same with this Arcanine model, exactly the same as the 3DS one:

arcanineoldmvkdf.png

21minutesofpokemafjwl.jpg


They did upscale and edited the textures though. (notice how one of the black stripes is gone in SwSh)

There is no technological limitation to bringing the models over, so if they redid them from scratch it would be to improve the quality, not to painstakingly match the 3DS models.
 

TyraZaurus

Member
Nov 6, 2017
4,457
Looks like it
His twitter.

Okay then. But I've already stated what kind of technical breakdown I'm looking for here and this still isn't it. I will give him credit for showing his work, at least, but I still think it's important to consider multiple voices in this.

EDIT - I'm also not convinced that "redoing all the textures" doesn't satisfy what Masuda said in the interview, or that it wouldn't involve quite a lot of work. There are, after all, a thousand of these damn things.
 
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Omegamon

Alt Account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,884
Okay then. But I've already stated what kind of technical breakdown I'm looking for here and this still isn't it. I will give him credit for showing his work, at least, but I still think it's important to consider multiple voices in this.
It's okay to have multiple voices but I want proof from the people who think they are new models. If you want a Digital Foundry type of analysis about the models being the same then we can ask the same for people who think they aren't.
 
Jun 2, 2019
4,947
So this is how the discussion is and some people are trying to spin it into Game Freak are either lying or incompetent.

Holy fuck why I'm not surprised?
 

udivision

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,033
Has that Hau/Rival animation thing already been talked about? I'll admit I took a week or so off from these threads.
 

XaviConcept

Art Director for Videogames
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
4,907
JustinP gave proof with the Gyarados model to support the idea of the models are the same. I would like if Raging Spaniard did the same beacuse I'm genuinely curious about the models being new.

Oh I have zero proof, Im just letting you know how things usually go when you go from a handheld game to a home console game. There are ways to retarget old animations and reuse some work so saying "from scratch" is perhaps too strong a word but just because you have a bunch of Maya files available from your last project doesnt mean you just use a couple of tools and bam, you're done. It depends on the tech available, how compatible things are with your new engine, how does the old shit work with the new shit ... etc

I will say this, many times it takes LESS time to make things from scratch than to retrofit old things to work

Oh also, I like to think Im reliable but I can also be completely fucking wrong on this. Its not like all gamedevs agree in some council to have a consensus opinion. Even at the office we tend to yell at each other irl about this type of shit within departments. Its part of the fun.
 
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