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Oct 26, 2017
8,734
I just can't see it happening. The polls are showing that voters just don't care that much unfortunately. The people have spoken

Is that the result of people not caring, or is it because of people like Noam Chomsky who consistently say that this should be ignored in favour of beating the fascist orange idiot? Even people in multiple Biden threats have consistently undermined sexual assault for political reasons.

I do wonder if this is going to open a can of worms where people will start politicizing and going behind certain candidates because of avoiding "unwanted" outcomes, at that point, everyone would be playing the same game that the Republicans have been playing for decades.
 

plagiarize

Eating crackers
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
27,511
Cape Cod, MA
To be clear, it's not turning your back. You can still participate in the process. But this isn't the thread for that conversation anyway. I can respect still voting for him but recognizing the severity of the situation and not throwing Reade and others to the wayside to get there. Everyone has to make that choice for themselves, but all I ask is for people to do the right thing and fight for victims to have their stories heard.

That being said, there is a confirmed investigation happening right now. I'm not expecting anything but it would be nice if we learn new information.

Regardless, people who have been pushing this under the rug will definitely celebrate if nothing turns up. If it goes down that way it will be sad to see, but no longer surprising.
Oh hell, I didn't mean to make it sound so binary. I didn't mean it to sound like those were the only two possible reactions.

In that case is it fair to be made uncomfortable when others insist you're supporting a rapist even if your support is premised on the belief he hasn't been shown to be a rapist? That's the only situation I get uneasy about things. Like, my support isn't in spite of him being a rapist. My support is premised on the belief him being a rapist hasn't been demonstrated to this point.
I can only tell you that it's also uncomfortable believing Reade's account. I hope wherever we fall on it right now at 'I told myself I'd be in bed more than two hours ago' o'clock, that we can find a way to stay mindful of each other while we navigate this goddamn mess.

And I'm going to actually go to bed now.
 

KHarvey16

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,193
It would support Biden's claim. Not sure what you're getting at. You seem to think we shouldn't believe women because the accused is unable to provide an alibi or show the woman is lying.

I am not sure the inability to locate the document would be seen by many here as evidence Biden wasn't guilty. I asked because your post implied the records not being there would have to be considered evidence, and I wanted to know if you believed that. I'm glad if you're being consistent.

As for the rest of the post, please stick to describing your thoughts rather than assigning some to me. I didn't say or imply any of that and the exercise is entirely unnecessary.
 

Deleted member 4346

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,976
When Fox News is beating you on women's rights. The USA media landscape is a disgrace.

And Biden is a disgrace for hoping that this just blows over. Great leadership material.

This is the top story on Fox News tonight. It's not going away. Man the party messed up voting for Biden as the nominee.

I think it's only a matter of time before Trump speaks to this. Biden needs to address it himself before that point.
 

Baji Boxer

Chicken Chaser
Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,379
I am not sure the inability to locate the document would be seen by many here as evidence Biden wasn't guilty. I asked because your post implied the records not being there would have to be considered evidence, and I wanted to know if you believed that. I'm glad if you're being consistent.

As for the rest of the post, please stick to describing your thoughts rather than assigning some to me. I didn't say or imply any of that and the exercise is entirely unnecessary.
If you don't like people guessing at what you think, then maybe discuss the subject of the OT rather than just replying with questions trying to sus out peoples' motivations. Who cares? Yes, some who want to draw attention to the new cooberation of part of her story might have ulterior motives, and have made up their minds. It doesn't matter though. Plenty of us want her taken seriously, and have her story thoroughly investigated. It's what every accuser deserves.
 

spam musubi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,380
I'm not sure that's the dichotomy. And I'm not sure assigning naivete about seeing the best in everyone as the motivation for not calling Biden a rapist is fair either. Do you think it's possible that a reasonable person could read all of the information we have available to us and be unwilling to conclude Biden committed rape? And by reasonable I mean not a rape apologist or someone dismissive of victims or some alt right men's rights activist. I mean someone approaching the situation honestly, fully embracing the idea of believe women and me too and simply not seeing enough to accuse a man of rape.

I guess I look at Warren and Sanders and Obama and don't really see people who would be willing to speak up for a man they believe is a rapist, especially the day after the investigative reporting comes out. And AOC especially, who came out and said victims should be heard but offered no comment at all beyond that. I can't imagine if she thought Joe Biden was a rapist she wouldn't make it a big deal. That she would not only silently accept but then loudly urge people to vote for someone she thought overpowered and raped a woman against a wall. I don't see them, or her, making the calculation of "that rape is ok because Trump has done and will do worse."

I think it's possible to both believe and support victims and also not see enough yet to label someone a rapist. And I think that's possible without having some flaw in the reasoning leading to that.

I'm just curious to see if you'd care to respond to my direct question to you, in response to your question.

Is there anything Biden could do to demonstrate he isn't a rapist?

Is there anything Tara can realistically do to demonstrate he is? To an extent that people won't play devil's advocate?

You are offering infinite leeway towards Biden with your advocation here, and I'm curious to see if you could walk through a thought exercise where you apply the same amount of leeway to Tara. Your thought process seems to come from a place of not believing (or not wanting to) Biden could be capable of something like this, and you're finding factoids to support your thesis. Let's say for the sake of argument that he did it. Try to see this viewpoint and the evidence supporting it. Try to articulate what you would need to see that would make you stop the line of argumentation that you've been pursuing. In a situation like this you at least owe this amount of intellectual due diligence when you've spent so much energy trying to argue with people in his defense.
 

His Majesty

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,171
Belgium
To be fair, Fox News doesn't suddenly believe women and is doing this to help their cause. This story is only getting airtime there as a political weapon.

Also helps them claim "legitimacy" when they're running this story ahead of CNN etc.
Yeah I think it's obvious why they are running with this story. Still a bad look for other news outlets.
 

KHarvey16

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,193
User Banned (Permanent): Concern trolling in a topic about sexual assault allegations; history of similar behaviour. Long history of concern trolling in sensitive threads.
I'm just curious to see if you'd care to respond to my direct question to you, in response to your question.





You are offering infinite leeway towards Biden with your advocation here, and I'm curious to see if you could walk through a thought exercise where you apply the same amount of leeway to Tara. Your thought process seems to come from a place of not believing (or not wanting to) Biden could be capable of something like this, and you're finding factoids to support your thesis. Let's say for the sake of argument that he did it. Try to see this viewpoint and the evidence supporting it. Try to articulate what you would need to see that would make you stop the line of argumentation that you've been pursuing. In a situation like this you at least owe this amount of intellectual due diligence when you've spent so much energy trying to argue with people in his defense.

It's not leeway or "advocation." I'm not vouching for Biden or arguing he isn't a rapist because he's such a good guy. My thoughts do not stem from a belief he isn't capable of this or wouldn't do it. I'm getting a little bit tired of being told why I hold a position that it seems most other people following the story hold, and having it always come down to being naive, overly optimistic or some other general failure of reasoning. My position is I'm not prepared to call him a rapist based on the evidence we have been presented with to this point. My argument is that isn't an unreasonable position, that it doesn't make me or anyone who holds that position a rape apologist and it's completely compatible with support for believing women and the me too movement. Take accusations seriously and do the investigation. Multiple outlets have released the results of their inquiries. More work is being done and I and everyone else awaits the results. I hope whatever evidence is there is exposed.

Any contemporaneous evidence to support the rape allegation would be very helpful. I think the Kavanaugh situation is a good example of what that could look like. Some of those working in the office at the same time have contradicted her descriptions of how the office in general and her role specifically functioned. Clarification there would be great. There's been lots of evidence supporting the allegations of inappropriate touching and violations of personal space. In general I think that's a decent model. Find some reasonable consensus on details with the 21 or so others interviewed.

The above assumes she has any desire to keep pushing this publicly. She can do as much or as little as she wants or feels comfortable with. Her general sentiment seems to not specifically be a desire to see anyone punished but to get her story out there. If what she's provided so far is all she is comfortable sharing, that's obviously fine. The people reading those claims and the reporting around them should be free to reach reasonable conclusions based on them. I asked what people felt Biden's options were because he's now on the defensive after the allegation, not because I am interested in giving him leeway.
 

Surfinn

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
28,590
USA
Yeah I think it's obvious why they are running with this story. Still a bad look for other news outlets.
Yup. Fox don't give two shits about Reade and other victims of assault. But they're definitely highlighting the undeniable radio silence of other major outlets. CNN hasn't run this on air after a month.
 

BADMAN

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,887
My argument is that isn't an unreasonable position, that it doesn't make me or anyone who holds that position a rape apologist and it's completely compatible with support for believing women and the me too movement. Take accusations seriously and do the investigation. Multiple outlets have released the results of their inquiries. More work is being done and I and everyone else awaits the results. I hope whatever evidence is there is exposed.
The Me too movement was about believing women until proven otherwise. I don't care if you think Tara is a liar or you don't believe her entirely or whatever your case is, but you don't also get to say your position is compatible with the me too movement.
 

KHarvey16

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,193
The Me too movement was about believing women until proven otherwise. I don't care if you think Tara is a liar or you don't believe her entirely or whatever your case is, but you don't also get to say your position is compatible with the me too movement.

Yes I do and you're in absolutely no position to question that.
 

BADMAN

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,887
Yes I do and you're in absolutely no position to question that.
Sorry, you don't get to claim to be me too compatible. You're actively rewriting what the movement was about so that it suits your world view. I'm not saying that you can't still call yourself an ally to women or whatever, but you can't specifically say you support me too in this case.
 

KHarvey16

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,193
Sorry, you don't get to claim to be me too compatible. You're actively rewriting what the movement was about so that it suits your world view. I'm not saying that you can't still call yourself an ally to women or whatever, but you can't specifically say you support me too in this case.

Yeah, we're done with this. It's not your club to deny permission to and you don't know a damn thing about me.
 

BADMAN

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,887
Yeah, we're done with this. It's not your club to deny permission to and you don't know a damn thing about me.
I know you're choosing not to fully believe Tara despite there being nothing about her accusation that is in anyway incredulous. And you're right, it's not my club. But the movement has some extremely basic rules to it and you've broken them. You're objectively not supporting what me too stands for in this specific case.

I'm not challenging your moral standing or whatever. Your internal beliefs are probably fine for the most part. I'm just saying that you can't specifically say you support me too on ideological grounds.
 

spam musubi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,380
Yes I do and you're in absolutely no position to question that.

You are holding contradictory positions and having to backtrack around yourself because of the cognitive dissonance. You do not think Tara is a liar, but you are also "not comfortable calling Biden a rapist". Tara's claim paints him as a rapist. Unless you provide an alternative explanation, not being comfortable calling Biden a rapist is not different from insinuating that Tara is lying. These two positions are not reconcilable.

Despite denying it every time you respond to people, what you are doing here is absolutely advocating for and giving leeway to Biden. Perhaps if every single person responding to you is telling you this, there is some introspection you need to do as yo why you appear to be coming off like this.

I sincerely urge you to re-read your postings on this matter and rethink as to whether you really aren't advocating for Biden, aren't giving him immense leeway to confirm your hypothesis that he hasn't done this, and that you believe Tara isn't lying. I mean, you really say you don't believe she is lying, but do you really, actually believe it? Because it really doesn't sound like it. I honestly got tired going through these posts in this very thread, and I only looked at like a dozen. Again, I really think that you should take a step back, try to apply the same amount of leeway and faith your postings show for Biden to Tara, and see if your framing of the situation changes. No "I believe Tara, but Obama spoke up for Biden so he probably isn't a rapist". No "I believe Tara, but there's no way poor Biden can prove his innocence!" (which implies that he is being maligned). No "I believe Tara, but I need more women to come forward to truly believe her". No "I believe Tara, but some people couldn't corroborate her statements so I'm not comfortable reaching a decision here". And don't come back at me with the "you are going overboard calling me a rape apologist" thing you've done like 5 times already. I'm not calling you that. I am calling you out for the lack of internal consistency in your position.

I'm getting a little bit tired of being told why I hold a position that it seems most other people following the story hold, and having it always come down to being naive, overly optimistic or some other general failure of reasoning. My position is I'm not prepared to call him a rapist based on the evidence we have been presented with to this point.
I am not sure the inability to locate the document would be seen by many here as evidence Biden wasn't guilty. I asked because your post implied the records not being there would have to be considered evidence, and I wanted to know if you believed that. I'm glad if you're being consistent.
As for the rest of the post, please stick to describing your thoughts rather than assigning some to me. I didn't say or imply any of that and the exercise is entirely unnecessary.
Like, my support isn't in spite of him being a rapist. My support is premised on the belief him being a rapist hasn't been demonstrated to this point.
I mean someone approaching the situation honestly, fully embracing the idea of believe women and me too and simply not seeing enough to accuse a man of rape.

I guess I look at Warren and Sanders and Obama and don't really see people who would be willing to speak up for a man they believe is a rapist, especially the day after the investigative reporting comes out. And AOC especially, who came out and said victims should be heard but offered no comment at all beyond that. I can't imagine if she thought Joe Biden was a rapist she wouldn't make it a big deal.
Is there anything Biden could do to demonstrate he isn't a rapist?
Multiple women accusing Biden of rape would change this thing instantly.
A substantial number of people who worked with her or the campaign at the time were interviewed by various outlets and some questioned her characterization of the work environment, questioned her description of the duties her position entailed and claimed to have never heard anything about these issues or experienced them themselves.

It's ironic you post this, because you also seem to have absolutely made up your mind and are trying to either convince yourself or the rest of us here of it.
It feels like many have already decided. Is it possible you would change your mind?
 

mAcOdIn

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,978
Is that the result of people not caring, or is it because of people like Noam Chomsky who consistently say that this should be ignored in favour of beating the fascist orange idiot? Even people in multiple Biden threats have consistently undermined sexual assault for political reasons.

I do wonder if this is going to open a can of worms where people will start politicizing and going behind certain candidates because of avoiding "unwanted" outcomes, at that point, everyone would be playing the same game that the Republicans have been playing for decades.
I really hate this time line.

I mean, I sorta agree with Chomsky on this, it's like if I was a Japanese AA gunner during WW2, my country might be in the wrong but I'd still try and shoot down American planes trying to bomb my country even if I thought the Emperor was a war criminal and Trump's "bombing" our country.

I think there's basically 4 options:
1. Dump Biden somehow before the election and likely lose.
2. Keep Biden but don't vote for him and fore sure lose.
3. Keep Biden, win and sweep this all under the rug.
4. Keep Biden, win and fight like hell to get him to resign or have this properly investigated and clear him(assuming the evidence points that way) once the Presidency is in our hands.

The ethical choice is number 1 or 2 and I think the tactical choice is number 4 but number 4 is by far the hardest to pull off outside of dropping him and having the nominee be some person chosen by committee and still somehow winning, which I think is the least plausible thing outside the world ending November 9th.
 

Deleted member 4346

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,976
It's not leeway or "advocation." I'm not vouching for Biden or arguing he isn't a rapist because he's such a good guy. My thoughts do not stem from a belief he isn't capable of this or wouldn't do it. I'm getting a little bit tired of being told why I hold a position that it seems most other people following the story hold, and having it always come down to being naive, overly optimistic or some other general failure of reasoning. My position is I'm not prepared to call him a rapist based on the evidence we have been presented with to this point. My argument is that isn't an unreasonable position, that it doesn't make me or anyone who holds that position a rape apologist and it's completely compatible with support for believing women and the me too movement. Take accusations seriously and do the investigation. Multiple outlets have released the results of their inquiries. More work is being done and I and everyone else awaits the results. I hope whatever evidence is there is exposed.

Any contemporaneous evidence to support the rape allegation would be very helpful. I think the Kavanaugh situation is a good example of what that could look like. Some of those working in the office at the same time have contradicted her descriptions of how the office in general and her role specifically functioned. Clarification there would be great. There's been lots of evidence supporting the allegations of inappropriate touching and violations of personal space. In general I think that's a decent model. Find some reasonable consensus on details with the 21 or so others interviewed.

The above assumes she has any desire to keep pushing this publicly. She can do as much or as little as she wants or feels comfortable with. Her general sentiment seems to not specifically be a desire to see anyone punished but to get her story out there. If what she's provided so far is all she is comfortable sharing, that's obviously fine. The people reading those claims and the reporting around them should be free to reach reasonable conclusions based on them. I asked what people felt Biden's options were because he's now on the defensive after the allegation, not because I am interested in giving him leeway.

You have typed paragraph after paragraph for weeks but what all this text boils down to is you don't find Reade's accusations credible (I won't speak to your reasons why). What's with all the prevaricating? It's just tiring. And unnecessary.

Reade seemingly wants her story out and for the truth to be told with regards to what kind of man Joe Biden is. She gave a statement to Fox News tonight. It's going to continue to make headlines, at least on Fox and online news, all the way up until November 3rd. Now, it's a 30 year old allegation. We have some supporting evidence, as with Kavanaugh. We may get more. Ultimately it will be up to the voters to decide. I believe Tara Reade. I expect that many other Americans will believe her story as well. Reade has already faced horrible abuse for coming out with her truth and as the election draws closer I expect she will face even more, because Trump has America desperate and terrified. She has no reason to subject herself to that, it just doesn't make sense. And so I believe her story, that Biden sexually assaulted her.
 

KHarvey16

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,193
You are holding contradictory positions and having to backtrack around yourself because of the cognitive dissonance. You do not think Tara is a liar, but you are also "not comfortable calling Biden a rapist". Tara's claim paints him as a rapist. Unless you provide an alternative explanation, not being comfortable calling Biden a rapist is not different from insinuating that Tara is lying. These two positions are not reconcilable.

Despite denying it every time you respond to people, what you are doing here is absolutely advocating for and giving leeway to Biden. Perhaps if every single person responding to you is telling you this, there is some introspection you need to do as yo why you appear to be coming off like this.

I sincerely urge you to re-read your postings on this matter and rethink as to whether you really aren't advocating for Biden, aren't giving him immense leeway to confirm your hypothesis that he hasn't done this, and that you believe Tara isn't lying. I mean, you really say you don't believe she is lying, but do you really, actually believe it? Because it really doesn't sound like it. I honestly got tired going through these posts in this very thread, and I only looked at like a dozen. Again, I really think that you should take a step back, try to apply the same amount of leeway and faith your postings show for Biden to Tara, and see if your framing of the situation changes. No "I believe Tara, but Obama spoke up for Biden so he probably isn't a rapist". No "I believe Tara, but there's no way poor Biden can prove his innocence!" (which implies that he is being maligned). No "I believe Tara, but I need more women to come forward to truly believe her". No "I believe Tara, but some people couldn't corroborate her statements so I'm not comfortable reaching a decision here". And don't come back at me with the "you are going overboard calling me a rape apologist" thing you've done like 5 times already. I'm not calling you that. I am calling you out for the lack of internal consistency in your position.









It's ironic you post this, because you also seem to have absolutely made up your mind and are trying to either convince yourself or the rest of us here of it.

I'm not advocating or giving leeway. Nothing you've quoted demonstrates otherwise. If your goal is simply to speak for me, have fun. I wrote you a long and thoughtful reply and you respond with condescension and by being dismissive. I'm all set with that.
 

Surfinn

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
28,590
USA
I'm not advocating or giving leeway. Nothing you've quoted demonstrates otherwise. If your goal is simply to speak for me, have fun. I wrote you a long and thoughtful reply and you respond with condescension and by being dismissive. I'm all set with that.
Do you find Reade credible? I just want to be clear on this.
 

Soph

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,503
If Biden is innocent he should have no problem whatsoever telling his side of the story.
 

bricewgilbert

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
868
WA, USA
I expected a lot of terrible things from the Democratic party. I know they are evil in their own ways, but I thought I understood it. This just solidifies my belief that the party deserves to die. There is no reforming it.
 

Deleted member 4346

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,976
Instead, he's enjoyed not having to deal with it for a full month. No one has pressed him.

I've said this before but the timing of this, how the major news networks outside of Fox are avoiding the story, does not help his general election chances. If he addressed this now, even if his response looks bad (and I believe it will!) it will be buried in the pandemic news cycle. The COVID-19 news WILL slow and if this hammers Biden at that point it is going to do major damage to the Democratic Party.
 

Surfinn

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
28,590
USA
I've said this before but the timing of this does not help his general election chances. If he addressed this now, even if his response looks bad (and I believe it will!) it will be buried in the pandemic news cycle. The COVID-19 news WILL slow and if this hammers Biden at that point it is going to do major damage to the Democratic Party.
I think the plan was definitely to just hope it dies, after the PR statement (in which didn't come from Biden directly). Luckily Reade is brave as hell and has been pressing forward. She's not letting her story be pushed to the side. Can't say I'd have the same strength.
 

Deleted member 4346

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,976
I think the plan was definitely to just hope it dies, after the PR statement (in which didn't come from Biden directly). Luckily Reade is brave as hell and has been pressing forward. She's not letting her story be pushed to the side. Can't say I'd have the same strength.

I didn't watch the entire segment, because Carlson is repulsive, but the latest developments got a long run on Fox News tonight. I believe after Hannity that is the second-largest cable news show. CNN and MSNBC can pretend there is no new evidence here but that tactic is not going to hold up.
 

Slaythe

The Wise Ones
Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,841
I expected a lot of terrible things from the Democratic party. I know they are evil in their own ways, but I thought I understood it. This just solidifies my belief that the party deserves to die. There is no reforming it.

America, with no universal healthcare, and only two parties to vote for, is so ass backwards for a 1st world country that it hurts my head.
 

GaimeGuy

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,092
See, there is a part in most peoples brains that don't want to believe the worst in people.
I think that part of this is also frustration at things just not coming out for so long. That's a reflection of how rapidly society's values have changed, as well as generational differences. It's also, unfortunately, problably a reflection of problems being more widespread than we care to admit to ourselves.

Take Roy Moore - he was on the supreme court of alabama, twice. The revelations about him were revealed one month before the election. Not when he was on the alabam bench, not when he was trying to move up the alabama courts, not when he was facing ethics investigations as a judge for separate matters, not when he announced his candidacy for the senate, not during the alabama senate primaries, but about one month before the general election for the senate seat. And apparently his conduct was an open secret not just in political circles, but in multiple cities.

Kavanaugh? Again, this guy was on the courts. The accusations against him seemed to only come out when he was up for SCOTUS and the path had been cleared for him.

Trump was a known piece of shit and even he had some revelations, namely the "grab em by the pussy" tape, that didn't come out until about a month before the general election.

Biden? Known to be handsy, has 7 women besides Reade who have accused him of inappropriate touching of shoulders/hair. If there was more to it than that, people wish it was used to primary him in the senate races in 1996/2002/2008. They wish it was used to knock him off of the shortlist for Obama's VP in 2008, so that Evan Bayh or Tim Kaine could have been chosen instead, or in 2018 or 2019 to ensure he remained on the sidelines and out of the presidential race, or when there was another moderate democrat in the race to consolidate behind, or the debates were ongoing, or before super tuesday.

People are frustrated because *they want to know everything as early as possible and about as many people as possible.* They want perfect information, they want to know just how widespread this behavior has been and just how many people are okay with it, and they feel like those details are being clouded by information being released "too late." They want to somehow separate the politics of the dialogue from the culture, to feel like we confronted these very real, and very widespread problems as early as possible, not when they had political ramifications. Cognitive biases are why they feel this way. Revelations are always going to be made "As late as possible," just like things are always in the last place you look for them (you stop looking after they're found).

To use myself as an example, I fell into this trap with Al Franken. I wondered "Wtf? Where was this when Franken was trying to unseat Norm Coleman and they were in a dead heat? Where was this before he started establishing himself as the anti-trump? Fuck, his inappropriate jokes and conduct as a comedian were even brought up against him before, including inappropriate "comedy," and I thought we had already made it apparent that it was okay to talk about this, that we could air everything out, weigh his aconduct and misconduct against his character and fitness for politics, make a decision, and focus on the immediate past, present, and future from then on. I was even looking forward to maybe seeing him run in 2020, or get a senior leadership position, because, during his time in office, he's lived up to my expectations, and then some, and handled himself gracefully in policy and politics, and professionalism. What happened? Was I wrong? Am I wrong? Was I lied to? Was he a worse person than I thought? Fuck, I'm worried about saying this because I don't want to be a rape apologist, or to be seen as a rape apologist. Am I being one? Fuck, why couldn't we at least get an investigation? I wish we had more time..."

You see? It's all there. The unintentional victim shaming. The anger that it was "held back," and fitting it into some kind of a political context, even though it wasn't occuring during any campaign. The desire to sweep things under the rug. The yearning to understand everything and everyone, and an OCD-fueled feedback loop of doubt and uncertainty over just who we are as a collective and as individuals, and a sinking feeling that we never will pull back the curtain on just how bad things are, we'll just spin our wheels and act like dogs chasing our tails, while keeping secrets that we take to our graves. I was guilty of it. I still am in several aspects, and will continue to be in the future. And I'll probably delude myself into thinking I'm not, to protect my own fragile ego from the sad fact that none of us are as good as we'd like to think we are.


Does any of this make sense? >_>
 
Last edited:

Audioboxer

Banned
Nov 14, 2019
2,943


Even if you don't like Rose or have issues with her, she has a big platform and has stayed consistent.

And look at this shit



What a mess, America.
 
Oct 26, 2017
8,734
I really hate this time line.

I mean, I sorta agree with Chomsky on this, it's like if I was a Japanese AA gunner during WW2, my country might be in the wrong but I'd still try and shoot down American planes trying to bomb my country even if I thought the Emperor was a war criminal and Trump's "bombing" our country.

I think there's basically 4 options:
1. Dump Biden somehow before the election and likely lose.
2. Keep Biden but don't vote for him and fore sure lose.
3. Keep Biden, win and sweep this all under the rug.
4. Keep Biden, win and fight like hell to get him to resign or have this properly investigated and clear him(assuming the evidence points that way) once the Presidency is in our hands.

The ethical choice is number 1 or 2 and I think the tactical choice is number 4 but number 4 is by far the hardest to pull off outside of dropping him and having the nominee be some person chosen by committee and still somehow winning, which I think is the least plausible thing outside the world ending November 9th.

I know what you're trying to say, but war isn't really a good analogy. For one, a healthy young man was essentially forced to fight wars for your country back in the WWII period no matter what. It wasn't until Muhammad Ali showed the issue of being forced to serve as a dissenter, and even then some countries still force young men to fight wars even if they dissent. Whereas with politics, you have a given choice, and there's nothing really stopping you or forcing you to point towards a given candidate.

The only danger is undermining significant messages. How can anyone say that we should start believing victims (emphasize belief, evidence and providing a case against is a whole other story), and then say "ah ah ah...except in politics. I can't risk x winning because of this." I would argue that the consequences is much bigger than simply worrying about the orange turd.
 

Audioboxer

Banned
Nov 14, 2019
2,943
This one makes me sick. FFS the Democratic Party is so bad that an absolute shithead like Don Jr. is going to be dunking on the Dem candidate for president for MONTHS.

The only "silver lining" is each time he does it every tweet is mass replied to with his Dad's rape accusations.

But in the mean time, the optics look terrible as the Republicans weaponise this to claim the Democrats only care when the accused is Red.

The longer that Joe Biden isn't addressing this head on the more "powerful" that narrative becomes in the population.
 

Audioboxer

Banned
Nov 14, 2019
2,943
Yeah this really hurts. I bet it must be painful for Reade as well to see that most of your support is coming from that side.

She is getting support from the left, but it's the left many write off as the "far left". Fringe outlets or journalists who are deemed to "criticise the Democrats too much". Or rose Twitter or whatever folks call things.

Which doesn't exactly help all the running narratives and divides between the progressive wing of the Democrats and the "establishment".

The whole thing is a mess with "war lines" drawn all over the place depending on ulterior motives. Ultimately, Biden has to speak, and speak now.



I seen Grim retweeted that, that's the kind of narrative that is being fought within the left. Apparent willful ignorance when it is convenient. No thought to the context of the era it happened and power dynamics/fear.
 
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entrydenied

The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
7,561
As a non American this whole thing looks like such a mess. In any other regular country, a decent enough person would step away from running if they have been accused of sexual harassment or/and assault. The party would usually also ask the person to just stop. It's not like there aren't any other qualified candidates who can step up and run.

Instead we have the party ignore these allegations and people telling others to suck it up and vote for Biden, or shaming them for considering otherwise. Such an embarrassment.
 
Dec 21, 2017
1,225
User Banned (1 Month): Dismissing Allegations of Sexual Assault
Thats.....thats it?

Call me if this ever goes from "garden variety political smear" into "something worth paying attention to". The situation is curious, but based off her story and this not passing the smell test, its a shame i lack "Press X to Doubt".jpg
 

Surfinn

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
28,590
USA
Thats.....thats it?

Call me if this ever goes from "garden variety political smear" into "something worth paying attention to". The situation is curious, but based off her story and this not passing the smell test, its a shame i lack "Press X to Doubt".jpg
Please explain how this is a smear or why Reade should not be believed.
 

Audioboxer

Banned
Nov 14, 2019
2,943
As a non American this whole thing looks like such a mess. In any other regular country, a decent enough person would step away from running if they have been accused of sexual harassment or/and assault. The party would usually also ask the person to just stop. It's not like there aren't any other qualified candidates who can step up and run.

Instead we have the party ignore these allegations and people telling others to suck it up and vote for Biden, or shaming them for considering otherwise. Such an embarrassment.

Look at the fear in Americans who have themselves convinced the only thing that exists on planet Earth that can beat Trump is Biden. He's been idolised into being a walking Jesus. Or an honorary black man. Now that you ask some to consider a politician not only responding, but possibly stepping down, and it's a battleground of "but people will only vote blue if it's Biden".

If we take the hypothetical of Biden standing down seriously for a minute, a genuine response of "no one else can beat Trump", says a lot about the mess of America. The man whose ratings are tanking and is blabbering on about injecting cleaning products cannot be beaten by anyone else in a powerful and rich Democrat lineup?

I guess for anyone that feels that way they should feel reassured inside that the country won't take rape seriously enough, like it didn't with Clinton, and the chances of Biden having to stand down are lower than the chances of Trump going a day without saying something ridiculous.
 

BADMAN

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,887
Thats.....thats it?

Call me if this ever goes from "garden variety political smear" into "something worth paying attention to". The situation is curious, but based off her story and this not passing the smell test, its a shame i lack "Press X to Doubt".jpg
Yeah man, too bad you didn't have that jpg to meme on a sexual assault victim. That would have been pretty dope
 
OP
OP
Xaszatm

Xaszatm

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,903
Thats.....thats it?

Call me if this ever goes from "garden variety political smear" into "something worth paying attention to". The situation is curious, but based off her story and this not passing the smell test, its a shame i lack "Press X to Doubt".jpg

Ah yes, please explain to us what will pass the, as you so called it, "smell test". The signed confession of Joe Biden? Video evidence of the deed? What will it take for you to believe Tara Reade?
 

Audioboxer

Banned
Nov 14, 2019
2,943
It's actually quite simple to "square the circle" around a request for Biden to stand aside pending more investigating, or even permanently.

The only question that is considered firstly is "Should Biden stand aside?". If a politician is credibly accused of sexual assault, should they stand aside unless they meet some other condition such as credible evidence in their defence? Is there simply an ethical stance taken it's not acceptable for anyone in a powerful position to continue with such an allegation?

Other companies, employers and such act quickly on allegations like this. Pointing to Trump being in the White House doesn't exonerate you, it only points to the issue of sexual assault not being taken seriously. Because if Biden wins, the Republicans will just point to him and go "See, it's fine if a rapist is in the WH". When does the cycle end, what happens when Trump 2.0 comes along? Or even Bill Clinton 2.0? (which I guess some would say Biden is trying to be).

A question of who replaces Biden is completely irrelevant to answering that first question. You do not begin with "Who replaces Biden?", you begin with "Should Biden be standing aside?". If your answer is, as above, "No, because he's the only person that can beat Trump", well, that's your answer I guess.
 
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Audioboxer

Banned
Nov 14, 2019
2,943
Literally what more do you need than what we already have, video?

Just ignore or report posts like that, they'll only derail more serious or sensible conversations that can be had.

The circumstantial evidence, including witness testimony, surrounding this case, is solid, it's bad faith acting now to suggest otherwise. The ball is in Biden's court.
 

Audioboxer

Banned
Nov 14, 2019
2,943
The Krassensteins are at it again on Twitter, and even although I've linked Fox News/Trump Jr to point out what they're up to, I refuse to link the Krassensteins again. However, this is the kind of nonsense people who've posted bullshit around this case can thank themselves for

VvS7pV8.png


That never happened, yet it's been regurgitated from the start. Both her name and Biden's name are Subject-1 and Subject-2 on the public report



The state of the media

 
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