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Dark Knight

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,271
Like, why do angels attack humans? Why are they attacking NERV?
The former question there is baaaarely touched upon in the show, you're right. It's pretty clear though that the Angels are supposed to be a force or nature in the sense that they don't have human minds(Fruit of Life vs. Fruit of Knowledge). Humans aren't able to comprehend the scope of the Angels because they exist on an entirely different conceptual level than any life found on Earth. For what the show is trying to do I feel like this unexplained force is pretty interesting/cool so it's fine the way it is, even as important as the questions they pose are. Again, the show is more trying to deal with the human reaction to them than explain what exactly they are(though yes they have deeper explanations in expanded materials).

The latter is explained somewhat by the end though, the Angels are simply trying to get at what NERV has hidden away inside Terminal Dogma to initiate Instrumentality/recover Adam. It's why every conflict in the show is centered around Tokyo and they aren't just attacking any random city.

Again the show seems to gleam just enough info about the deeper conflict to keep it intrinsically relevant without making the show completely about the physical conflict itself.
 

Flipyap

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,489
Yes to all this. The only caveat I would add is that the elements it basically fails to explain are a little more than nitty gritty. Like, why do angels attack humans? Why are they attacking NERV? Why are they doing that? I've watched this show twice and I still don't know. I read the damn lore and even the wiki author was uncertain. That is the whole show!

But ultimately it doesn't matter. I like good characters and pretty pictures, so I like Eva.
Because the humans keep getting in the way. Because they're driven to join the creature that's being kept under the NERV HQ. That's literally all there is to it. You shouldn't need a wiki to get that. Everything else is just pointless technobabble collected from various questionable tie-ins and spin-offs.
 

Gustaf

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
14,926
i came into eva late. like, 4-5 years ago. a hardcore fan lent me copies of the dvds.

the first thing that became apparent was where the mecha shows after eva - the ones i had watched - all drawn their 'inspiration.' shows like blue gender and eureka seven glanced over at eva and just did it again without doing anything on their own. eureka seven was particularly frustrating for me even at the time because it meanders so long and then has kind of an exciting finale and then it's over. it's even more frustrating now knowing there wasn't a single original idea that drove its creation.

the following is just a personal interpretation, maybe not what the creator intended, but it's what i choose to believe in and why it left a mark on me.

for most of the show, i was mildly interested in the plot of the angels and the impacts and being one of the first shows to subvert the genre. a lot of it was like uncovering cultural history within the anime world. my reaction was mostly 'oh interesting' or 'huh, neat' whenever something that had been referenced in another show would pop up (invader zim was probably the earliest show i'd seen that referenced eva even though i didn't understand it at the time). as shit started to go down, it was gradually more intense and attention-grabbing, but it didn't reach that classic level for me until end of evangelion.

end of eva shows people in their final moments, mostly alone, mostly looking for someone else. this recontextualized the events of the show for me - as people who are all lonely, fighting with depression, or anxiety, and feel there's no one else around them who can help. who they want to be with or to love them is perceived as unavailable or unattainable and it drives them into further isolation. in the end, shinji is suicidal and given the option between accepting this death, or going back to his life wrought with pain and suffering, where there's only one other person alive who can't stand him - he chooses life. and maybe that just speaks to me having an unrealistically optimistic worldview that contrasts with occasional suicidal ideation, but i took it to be a 'life is worth living' message done through the absolutely harshest lens. it wasn't even until later that i learned the creator suffered from depression when he was making the show, but that just helped cement my interpretation even more.

to be clear, this isn't to force my interpretation on anyone else, but it's the reason why end of evangelion is what really won me over. i think it's beautiful.

i see it like this too, shinji at the end decides to live, but since, the instrumentality has already occurrred, there is nothing he can do for people.

i think something along the lines of "the people who chose to live will regain their human forms" so, they need to do the same he did, "choose life" to go back.
 
Oct 27, 2017
42,700
No, the biggest issue that I have with this series is that it presents this narrative that seems, on the surface, to be building up toward some revelatory and cohesive conclusion during which many of the plot's underlying mysteries will finally be revealed and add much needed context to previous events in the story.
I never got that feeling. Also I found it did answer most of the questions it presented

The story is about an incel learning about how he doesn't need to be such a shitty person and everyone congratulating his realization.
Shinji isn't an incel...
 
Oct 27, 2017
42,700
neither got that feeling, but i dont for a second think the show answered any question at all.
It answered what angels were, what the evas were, you learned about the pilots and other characters backstories, etc. It answered a lot of the "typical" narrative questions it presented, despite those not necessarily being the main point. It's not like, FLCL for instance, where it went full metaphor and big things (ie. Medical Mechanica and who they were) weren't ever answered
 

Gustaf

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
14,926
It answered what angels were, what the evas were, you learned about the pilots and other characters backstories, etc. It answered a lot of the "typical" narrative questions it presented, despite those not necessarily being the main point. It's not like, FLCL for instance, where it went full metaphor and big things (ie. Medical Mechanica and who they were) weren't ever answered

can you show me where they explained what angels are?

NGE explained shit.

they throw a lot of concepts at you and hope you took them for granted.

which people did, because sounded cool.
 

RangerBAD

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,403
just the take on eva's 'young boy put into impossible situation and lusts over women he can't have and goes cuh-raaaaaaaaazy' - feels like someone who was watching eva and took notes of the surface level to put it in their anime without the emotional core (the creator's own depression/mental state) taken into account as what actually drove the art.

granted, i thought eureka seven was a bad show before i saw eva. this just made me dislike it even more. it's the same situation with bravely default, which mimics a game from the 90s for a fourth wall moment. once i played that original game afterwards, it soured me on bravely default even further because that seemingly-unique element wasn't theirs to begin with.

I mean that's actually Gundam. EVA is amazing, but it has inspirations from other shows. Especially Ideon.
 

TheXbox

Prophet of Truth
Member
Oct 29, 2017
6,551
Because the humans keep getting in the way. Because they're driven to join the creature that's being kept under the NERV HQ. That's literally all there is to it. You shouldn't need a wiki to get that. Everything else is just pointless technobabble collected from various questionable tie-ins and spin-offs.
Yeah but what about your avy? Doesn't that dude just kinda hang out and cast a big shadow? Or the fish monster? Or the lava thing?

I mean, I get it. I think Kowaru explicitly says he wants to touch Adam or Lillith, whichever it was. But I don't know why. They're just really stoked about the Third Impact? I agree with Dark Knight that the angels' inscrutable behavior is actually rad and enhances their menace, it's just one example of a very basic concept the creators couldn't be fucked to explain.
 

Gustaf

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
14,926
Yeah but what about your avy? Doesn't that dude just kinda hang out and cast a big shadow? Or the fish monster? Or the lava thing?

I mean, I get it. I think Kowaru explicitly says he wants to touch Adam or Lillith, whichever it was. But I don't know why. They're just really stoked about the Third Impact? I agree with Dark Knight that the angels' inscrutable behavior is actually rad and enhances their menace, it's just one example of a very basic concept the creators couldn't be fucked to explain.

yeah the show explains shit,

from what i can gather and remember, the thing is, Adam's children and Lilith's children CANT share a world.

so adam's children want to fuck up earth and kill every human, because humans are the children of lilith.

there should have not 2 "eggs" in one planet to begin with.

thats why the conflict exists.
 
Oct 27, 2017
42,700
can you show me where they explained what angels are?

NGE explained shit.

they throw a lot of concepts at you and hope you took them for granted.

which people did, because sounded cool.

Angels are children of Adam. Humans are children of Lilith. It's one of the few Judeo-Christian concepts that isn't purely random imagery as there's the idea that Lilith was the actual first wife of Adam before Eve who left/was cast of out the Garden of Eden for not wanting to be subservient and was said to be the mother of demons

Yeah it isn't a full explanation of exactly what they are, but it's enough
 

Gustaf

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
14,926
Angels are children of Adam. Humans are children of Lilith. It's one of the few Judeo-Christian concepts that isn't purely random imagery as there's the idea that Lilith was the actual first wife of Adam before Eve who left/was cast of out the Garden of Eden for not wanting to be subservient and was said to be the mother of demons

Yeah it isn't a full explanation of exactly what they are, but it's enough

i know that, was that shown and explained on the show?


well it seems they started at the same time, but the anime was always the main thing.

the manga was only made to promote the anime
 

The Silver

Member
Oct 28, 2017
10,711
Play Final Fantasy 15 if you want to see the true meaning of messy narrative. The story is good in a vacuum if you know everything. If you don't? Worst storytelling I've ever encountered.
 

Gustaf

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
14,926
Oh wow, I had no idea. I just assumed it was a long running manga that they made a rough draft show about ala Akira.

thats the reason the original ending sucking made people furious.

most of the time when an anime adaptation fucks up the ending because the manga hasn;t finished it is seen like "oh well, at least we still got the manga"

with EVA, the anime was everything.
 

Strings

Member
Oct 27, 2017
31,384
The messiness is the point. End of Evangelion literally self-destructs while you're watching it, Stan Brakhage style.
 

HououinKyouma

The Wise Ones
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
8,366
End of Evangelion was one of the most uncomfortable films I've ever sat through....I loved it.
 
Jun 22, 2019
3,660

SolidSnakeBoy

Member
May 21, 2018
7,342
Opinions are what they are, but I feel like this is just kind of hand-waving away bad storytelling.

I think the thing that is fascinating about this show is that it seemingly jumps the shark in its final arc, leaves the "original" narrative and focuses on something else. That hole at the end of the show is complex and if you then rewatch it with that context it works to create a new narrative. For most people who find it a masterpiece, it is probably due to the experience of how that rewatch completely works to create a new interpretation of the show and that is very full filling.
 
Oct 27, 2017
12,238
He's so on the edge it may as well be splitting hairs - all he really lacked was an online community to push him over.
Shinji is a mentally abused kid with a dead mother, an absent father who treats him like shit and blames him for his wife's death. And then he and the other adults hand him a massive weapon and expect him to save the world. I don't know how can anyone be in a mentally sound place with that situation.

I also think that people get into Eva expecting this massive mindblown, larger than life narrative, when in most cases a lot of fans acknowledge that it has many flaws but still love it that way.
 
Oct 27, 2017
42,700
Uh, FLCL totally answered those things on par (or even moreso) than Eva did.
It most definitely didn't. We learn significantly more in Eva than in FLCL

He's so on the edge it may as well be splitting hairs - all he really lacked was an online community to push him over.
Not really. He's an emotionally abused kid who just wants any sort of love/affection, but keeps being used by everyone around him. His personality and behavior is very much justified given what he goes through. I feel like incel has been twisted to any guy who's lonely and depressed
 

Flipyap

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,489
Yeah but what about your avy? Doesn't that dude just kinda hang out and cast a big shadow? Or the fish monster? Or the lava thing?

I mean, I get it. I think Kowaru explicitly says he wants to touch Adam or Lillith, whichever it was. But I don't know why. They're just really stoked about the Third Impact? I agree with Dark Knight that the angels' inscrutable behavior is actually rad and enhances their menace, it's just one example of a very basic concept the creators couldn't be fucked to explain.
Humans also attack first whenever they get the chance. It's hard to tell how far the fish dude would get once it reached solid ground. I guess some of them just lost the angel gene lottery?

It's an instinct, we (and they) don't need to understand why they're driven to do something. It's the humans who need a reason to justify their various convoluted suicide plots, and that's where it gets real iffy.
 

SolidSnakeBoy

Member
May 21, 2018
7,342
Uh, FLCL totally answered those things on par (or even moreso) than Eva did.



He's so on the edge it may as well be splitting hairs - all he really lacked was an online community to push him over.

This doesn't make any sense he doesn't blame women in general for anything. His relationship with Asuka is actively toxic with her actively making it worse.....not to say the show doesn't have very poorly aged depiction of women though.
 

Strings

Member
Oct 27, 2017
31,384
Opinions are what they are, but I feel like this is just kind of hand-waving away bad storytelling.
I can't really respond without you explaining why you think it's bad storytelling. Different =/= bad. The show starts out with a bunch of displaced and damaged kids forced to bear the weight of the world and explores what that does to them / the kind of people who facilitate that. There's an interview with Anno where he describes the intention of the project as:
I tried to include everything of myself in Neon Genesis Evangelion-myself, a broken man who could do nothing for four years. A man who ran away for four years, one who was simply not dead. Then one thought. "You can't run away," came to me, and I restarted this production. It is a production where my only thought was to burn my feelings into film.
The second half of EoE - the like 30 minute montage that slowly degrades from lush animation to children's drawings, scratched film and then finally live-action - is that bolded part manifest. The mechs and world conspiracies, blah blah, are secondary to the characters.
 
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Aug 27, 2018
2,779
I can't really respond without you explaining why you think it's bad storytelling. Different =/= bad. The show starts out with a bunch of displaced and damaged kids forced to bear the weight of the world and explores what that does to them / the kind of people who facilitate that. There's an interview with Anno where he describes the intention of the project as:

The second half of EoE - the like 30 minute montage that slowly degrades from lush animation to children's drawings, scratched film and then finally live-action - is that bolded part manifest. The mechs and world conspiracies, blah blah, are secondary to the characters.
I shouldn't have said "bad" storytelling, more like "messy"...like in the title of this thread haha. I love EVA to death but I'm also aware of it's flaws or "perceived" flaws. I just remember watching End of Evangelion and thinking

tenor.gif
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,257
It had massive publication gaps. It is just 13 volumes or so.
i dont think it ever was on a "regular" schedule, think berserk or hunter x hunter.
Sadamoto took many breaks from it over the years.

The manga's divisive, but I liked it. Take it as the companion piece that it is.
Oh, well that makes a lot more sense then. I may have to read it.
 

Lulu

Saw the truth behind the copied door
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
26,680
Really just about kids going through puberty and the whole robot stuff is cool dressing
 

Failburger

Banned
Dec 3, 2018
2,455
Man, I can't believe the amount of Shinji defenders. I don't care how much trauma you have, it doesn't excuse your for rape and attempted murder.

Shinji may not perfectly fit the incel label, but he's well on the path of being one.
 
OP
OP
ScOULaris

ScOULaris

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,588
Man, I can't believe the amount of Shinji defenders. I don't care how much trauma you have, it doesn't excuse your for rape and attempted murder.

Shinji may not perfectly fit the incel label, but he's well on the path of being one.
I think Shinji in the series was totally fine and an interesting character study. Sure, he was an anxiety-ridden mess half of the time, but his underlying kindness came through often and made him likeable/relatable enough to root for IMO.

But the Shinji in End of Evangelion? He's a piece of work.
 

Dust

C H A O S
Member
Oct 25, 2017
32,169
The last two episodes of Evangelion take place inside EVA 01/Shinji's mind.
EoE shows you what was happening outside EVA 01 during that.

It's a mess because it is supposed to be a mess. A 14 years old depressed boy becomes actual god more or less for brief period of time and can reshape humanity. It wouldn't be pretty.
 

Deleted member 8752

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
10,122
I first saw this when I was 18 years old with the platinum collection and EOE dvds.

At the time I thought it was absolutely brilliant and rewatched it over and over. Now that I'm much older, I think it's kind of absurd and awful. Like a total assault on the senses in a grating sort of way.

It really feels like something targeted to teenagers.

There is something genuinely brilliant deep in that series + EOE, but you have to work so hard as a viewer to see it that it'a almost not worth it.
 

Echo

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
6,482
Mt. Whatever
The manga has some fairly significant plot changes and personality differences too. I consider it a separate line from the Anime personally. And heck, with that ending... Feel like it's being a little misrepresented here in the last couple posts. Sadamoto definitely got some leeway in the later years and it shows. Studio Khara themselves ended up helping out the last couple volumes.
 

Contramann

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,404
Evangelion will also bother me just because it decided to stop hinting at or alluding to everyone's psychological hangups and decided to straight up just beat you over the head with it as it ended. Like OP says, the show felt as though it couldn't resolve the symbolism and themes with the end and instead decided to conclude that stuff as bluntly as possible.

The decision to make the main driving narrative now suddenly the main character's inner struggle was also just not a good choice in my opinion. I'm fine with character-driven stories or resolving character arcs but to have suddenly Shinji's whole psychological resolution become instead of his character arc leading to the main arc's resolution? It's way way too on the nose.
 

NeonZ

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 28, 2017
9,372
I get that the show's writer/director was going through some heavy shit, mentally, during its creation. That shows in how far down the rabbit hole it's willing to go in explaining most of the main character's innermost motivations and anxieties. But I think that the series really failed to live up to its potential by failing to realize the potential of its initial premise and core narrative. A mech anime that de-glamorizes the insane notion of placing teenagers in control of giant robots and placing the fate of the world on their shoulders is a genius concept, and in my eyes the show does a great job exploring that idea in its first 15-20 episodes. But then that just all fades away and we're given something that's interesting in its own right (and certainly unexpected) but not as cohesive and satisfying as it could have been.

The whole mythology behind the series has basically been made available outside of the animation itself. The initial project plan has been published for example and it had some of the main core concepts pretty explicit there and alongside that there was the highly marketed "classified information" released alongside a PS2 Eva game.


The Classified Information does have the issue of not being just direct quotes from the series' staff, but rather just the final product put together by the game's staff based on an interview with series' staff (possibly just Anno too). The series also diverges pretty greatly from the initial outline after the halfway point, so the project plan isn't fully reliable either, but most of what it was set there regarding the basic premise seems to stand well enough with the final product at least in general terms even when specific details where changed. I think they avoided them in the series mostly due to considering the answers very mundane. The explanation for everything basically comes down to "aliens did it", even if in obviously more elaborate ways

A primordial alien civilization which is basically "God" seeded life throughout the universe. There are two types of seeds of life. Knowledge (Lilith/Humans), a race with high intelligence but little individual power, and life (Adam/Angels), a race with only a few individuals but with great power. Planets appropriate for life are meant to receive one of them, but due to a mistake Earth received both. The Geofront was Lilith's egg. The Secret Dead Sea Scrolls are
instructions given by the aliens to transform the lilim/human race using the progenitor of life, Lilith.

Angels attack because they're instinctively drawn to Adam in order to fuse with it and start Complementation, and it seems they also might be unable to differentiate Adam from Lilith well, which is why sometimes they went after Lilith. They aren't specifically attempting to destroy humanity, but Complementation started by an Angel would inevitably have that result, which is why Kaworu just lets himself be killed.
 
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fontguy

Avenger
Oct 8, 2018
16,152
just the take on eva's 'young boy put into impossible situation and lusts over women he can't have and goes cuh-raaaaaaaaazy' - feels like someone who was watching eva and took notes of the surface level to put it in their anime without the emotional core (the creator's own depression/mental state) taken into account as what actually drove the art.

granted, i thought eureka seven was a bad show before i saw eva. this just made me dislike it even more. it's the same situation with bravely default, which mimics a game from the 90s for a fourth wall moment. once i played that original game afterwards, it soured me on bravely default even further because that seemingly-unique element wasn't theirs to begin with.

Look at how Eureka 7 imitated Eva! *describes Gundam*
 

Marmoka

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,014
The beginning of the series is awesome but they didn't even know how to finish it, and so it became a real mindblowing mess.

My theory about Evangelion is that nobody understands what's going on in the end of the series, not even the creators. And those that think they do understand, well, they don't.
 

Capra

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,596
The beginning of the series is awesome but they didn't even know how to finish it, and so it became a real mindblowing mess.

My theory about Evangelion is that nobody understands what's going on in the end of the series, not even the creators. And those that think they do understand, well, they don't.

Instrumentality starts and everyone dissolves into Tang just like Shinji did in that one episode. Shinji confronts his trauma and decides that living as an individual is worth it even if it means being hurt and hurting others. Everyone congratulates him. The end.

End of Evangelion is the same thing but with more fighting and more Shinji being a shithead.