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Neil Druckmann's attitude towards TLOU2's reception is something to be admired (potential spoilers inside)
- Thread starter jett
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They shrunk Joel's shoulders to make him look less manly.
It's true, I read at Reddit.
Having crunch in a critical phase of your project can bring your ppl down big time, but I seriously dislike how the gaming community acts that this is exclusive to gaming. I know multiple ppl in multiple industries who works 50-60 hours over month of its needed(me included), it's still bad mind you but that ppl here including Jason acts that's only a gaming problem is baffling.
You can clearly see it on their overall product quality, a good counterpoint would be Nintendo.
It's hard to say which devs do and don't do crunch, ND along with Rockstar embarrassingly wears it as a badge of pride early on before people called them out on the shitty practice.
And it's just as bad in those industries, feel free to make threads about that and educate people. This is the gaming thread though, so it's not relevant here.
Whataboutism is also weak af to use.
Yea I know it's s gaming forum, but God forbid for thinking we could see it in some context. I said that I don't like it here either, but I think that's its not always fully avoidable.
You're lying. Crunch was brought up quite a few times in the Cyberpunk delay thread, starts from page 2:
And there's more.
Why would the gaming community be talking about crunch in other industries if they're not privy to it? That doesn't mean it's exclusive to this industry, that's just a strawman argument. I have yet to hear anyone say crunch is exclusive to the videogame industry.
Can't have a thread praising Naughty Dog or Neil, some people just won't allow it. Just look at the people commenting in this thread. Pretty sad in my opinion.
Give it some time. By the end of the year it will have cooled down.
while the individuals from ND deserve praise (the game is a technical marvel), the working conditions at ND absolutely warrant criticism. this isn't a place for unanimous praise.
You're right, but at the same time Naughty Dog opens itself up to that sort of criticism by engaging in the practice. Overworking their staff is intrinsically tied to the product.
It's a lazy criticism and whataboutism, but not one you can really argue with
yeah so admirable how he couldn't handle journos making a few jokes that weren't even at the game's expense but at a critic making a silly comparison
the man is making six figures and he can be confident this game will sell millions. it's really admirable that he's not having a shitfit over chuds reviewbombing his game? that's like, bare minimum. dude has won at life.
the man is making six figures and he can be confident this game will sell millions. it's really admirable that he's not having a shitfit over chuds reviewbombing his game? that's like, bare minimum. dude has won at life.
He is taking it amazingly well, damn. Kudos to him.
Wrt crunch..., I don't know what kind of job experience you have, but in the process of creating a great product, there will always be people who put in extra hours in their works, even sacrifice parts of their personal life to do something they are really passionate about. Some of you guys act like Neil is personally whipping his employees and holding them at a gunpoint. It's a choice that people make, maybe at the time you are not happy, with all the pressure and stress but when the final product turns out to be something amazing, the pay off is fantastic and you can bet your ass that everyone who worked on TLOU2 is going to put it on his/her resume boldly and proudly.
I have done crunches, I have worked 90 hours a week for months, and I felt miserable at the time, but I knew what I had signed up for, and looking back at the results, I feel nothing but pride and joy. I am pretty sure majority of the passionate people who crunched on TLOU2 feel the same.
At one point in one of the God of war 2018 documentary, they ask Shannon Studstill, about the sacrifices she's had to go through during the development of the game. She tears up. This is how great things come to life, whether we like it or not. I am pretty sure Neil also went through crunches and sacrifices.
Crunch is like lifting weight, you don't feel good under all the weights, but when you get to see the result, you can't help but smile :)
Wrt crunch..., I don't know what kind of job experience you have, but in the process of creating a great product, there will always be people who put in extra hours in their works, even sacrifice parts of their personal life to do something they are really passionate about. Some of you guys act like Neil is personally whipping his employees and holding them at a gunpoint. It's a choice that people make, maybe at the time you are not happy, with all the pressure and stress but when the final product turns out to be something amazing, the pay off is fantastic and you can bet your ass that everyone who worked on TLOU2 is going to put it on his/her resume boldly and proudly.
I have done crunches, I have worked 90 hours a week for months, and I felt miserable at the time, but I knew what I had signed up for, and looking back at the results, I feel nothing but pride and joy. I am pretty sure majority of the passionate people who crunched on TLOU2 feel the same.
At one point in one of the God of war 2018 documentary, they ask Shannon Studstill, about the sacrifices she's had to go through during the development of the game. She tears up. This is how great things come to life, whether we like it or not. I am pretty sure Neil also went through crunches and sacrifices.
Crunch is like lifting weight, you don't feel good under all the weights, but when you get to see the result, you can't help but smile :)
After playing the game [still not finished], I find the online controversies and hate were based on data that is taken out of context. The ball got rolling long ago by parts of online population, and every smallest thing that offends them makes the avalanche stronger. They promoted excessive focus on gay relationships, Dina will be fridged, Joel will be marginalized, Abby is there to push anti-feminine body form, and countless other out-of-context jabs, [plus obvious trolling "smaller shoulders", "Niel/Manny haircut"].
The game should be played, and then criticized. So far I find it to be quite a masterpiece.
I'm glad it's selling well and that devs are not getting into a shouting matches on socials. They are happy for their work to be out in the wild.
The game should be played, and then criticized. So far I find it to be quite a masterpiece.
I'm glad it's selling well and that devs are not getting into a shouting matches on socials. They are happy for their work to be out in the wild.
Looking at the Internet these days at this point its hard to tell the difference between people caring passionately about crunch and people just looking to dunk on a game and its director due to their own issues with the game, story and its themes.
Let's see if the next game that comes from a studio known to crunch receives the same sort of backlash.
User banned (permanent): racist trolling
Game where you can kill hundreds of people, rip their guts out, but you can't shoot jewish relic. Why is that? I wouldn't even think of shooting something that's not an enemy (saving bullets is a must on survivor) but why stopping me from doing this? This is some racism inducing shit.
Why not have a dedicated thread about ND crunch culture instead of derailing every Naughty Dog thread in resetera?
because these are gripes about both Naughty Dog itself, as a company and also about the game in particular and it's hard to separate them from critical discussion. It's also hardly derailing, the game gets (from what I've seen deservedly) a good reception here. if merely bringing up these topics makes people uncomfortable, maybe they shouldn't support this kind of abuse in the first place, tho.
The developers and voice actors are being harassed.
And part of this attitude is coming off as "you deserve to be shat on because of crunch culture"
Or his attitude towards trans players who are fucking disappointed at how they just deadnamed a trans character in the game.
sorry, but two wrongs don't make a right. I can be against GG wretches harassing people, recognize the achievement that is TLOU2 and still criticize the toll it took on people.
Yeah sure, but the simple truth here, the thread about harrasment ND received has been derailed into talking about crunch culture, even if that's not the intention, that's what happening now
Edit: also regarding crunch, I think the last word Neil give is that they're aware about it and taking step to deal with it. They're also aware what they've done is not enough and will keep working on it.
So we'll just have to wait and see if it'll improve next time.
Sometimes even a guy who has achieved "success" in life can't handle criticism well.
Even Trump who has "won" the presidency and still feels the need to respond to his critics however relevant they are. We're all human who has ego that craves for recognition and praise.
I feel Druckmann sometimes was a bit over reactive on Twitter (like when he jumped into Jason Schreier). The best way to bask in glory is being modest, just being silent and let people around you do the talk instead of yourself. A great product / art will always have fans and haters but as long as you and your team are satisfied with the end result, that's all that matter.
To add into this: I really like Druckmann and think he's one of a kind. I just hope he keeps being grounded and stays on the path. We have seen some great creators went off path and never came back to their previous level of greatness.
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That's a lot of fancy words just to say "pressure employees to work more then they should."
What about the people who don't feel like working ridiculous hours? Do you think they just say "oh ok" or do you think they try to "persuade them" to be more "passionate" about a product?
Sorry no, maybe I'm just a fucking cynic but I don't buy it. Reeks of either BS or Stockholm Syndrome. Don't care how you try to pretty it up over work is over work.
Even if they do genuinely want to work this hard sometime you gotta stop people from hurting themselves. When we hear about Sakurai working himself to the point it's detrimental to his physical health no one goes "oh hes so passionate" they say "god man take a break." So what's the difference here?
Because it's a negative stigma it's attached to the company and until something is done about it people will bring it up. I love Atlus but I'm not gonna tell people who complain about their poor LGBT representation to keep it to another thread. Or any of the controversies that people will bring up in regards to Activision or THQ. I don't always like it but you fuck up that shit sticks to you.
Big movie directors: Go on vacation for 6 months to a year
Corporate peon: Can come in late the next morning.
I wonder which is it?
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Usually yeah. A team will be put together for post launch bug fixing or support and others will take time off before going back for pre pro on the next title/or development of DLC. That's my experience anyway. It doesn't happen like day after release though.
Well first of all I have seen people state problems they've had with the game so strike 1 right there.
And do you think crunch isn't a problem or somehow justifiable? Strike 2.
One try one more time or can you really just not bear people having something to say about the company that made a game you like?
I did not say no one can like the game. Think it has bad pacing? Sure you could claim that any other gameplay irks you may find.
I did not say I support crunching. It is a reality of the industry, a sad one that needs to be changed. However in that twitter drama, I don't think it was approproate for jason to just do a swerve to get an upper hand on neil. It is a valid concern, but it wasnt what was being discussed then.
For some reason, this game and dev seemingly get more flak for issues that is not solely exclusive to them. That's what popularity brings I guess
Getting real tired of every mention of this game being countered with "But crunch though!"
Vitriolic harassment of the people who were involved in the making of the game - "But crunch though!"
Review-bombing - "But crunch though!"
Alt-right harming the image of the game under the guise of concern over censorship, pandering to minorities etc - "But crunch though!"
"But crunch though!" = "It's ok that this is happening because everyone involved deserves it and you should feel bad for having anything positive to say."
This game has done a lot of things right, and no one should be saying that crunch is ok (and the majority are not), it's unnecessary to keep bringing it up incessantly. It's just an excuse to justify the drama. There are a lot of studios who are crunching even now as we speak. Naughty Dog needs to think about the way it does things, and I hope the outcry from Jason's article will enforce some change, but can we please stop pretending that this is all about crunch now? Thanks.
Vitriolic harassment of the people who were involved in the making of the game - "But crunch though!"
Review-bombing - "But crunch though!"
Alt-right harming the image of the game under the guise of concern over censorship, pandering to minorities etc - "But crunch though!"
"But crunch though!" = "It's ok that this is happening because everyone involved deserves it and you should feel bad for having anything positive to say."
This game has done a lot of things right, and no one should be saying that crunch is ok (and the majority are not), it's unnecessary to keep bringing it up incessantly. It's just an excuse to justify the drama. There are a lot of studios who are crunching even now as we speak. Naughty Dog needs to think about the way it does things, and I hope the outcry from Jason's article will enforce some change, but can we please stop pretending that this is all about crunch now? Thanks.
I posted this on Part II OT, Doctor Uckmann's collectible card description was kinda 'slight mocking' impression, the way I read it, lol.
Agreed.
Crunching does not invalidate a game's quality. It is the easy copout though when you have nothing else to say...
But crunching!!!
I really feeli like people like Druckmann or Barlog should keep more distance online between them and the people who play their game, especially when talking about critical reception of said games. That feud they had with Shreier was embarassing and made me think less of them, regardless of who was right or wrong. Just the idea of engaging with it makes me look at them differently.
And before anyone points it out, yes it doesn't matter what I think of them. Just don't ask me to cheer him for trolling some assholes.
And before anyone points it out, yes it doesn't matter what I think of them. Just don't ask me to cheer him for trolling some assholes.
The topic wasn't about the games quality it was about singing the VP's praises. Don't see how pointing out that, no, not everything is hunky dory there so maybe don't forget what this dude does, is out of line.
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Agreed.
Crunching does not invalidate a game's quality. It is the easy copout though when you have nithinf else to say...
But crunching!!!
Is it him enforcing crunch or is it company culture? I don't doubt he believes in it but I don't think he is the originator of crunching in Naughty Dog
Yes and they rightfully should because they are leaders in their industries and the ones that can most afford change.
Last time I checked, the thread wasn't about Neil Druckman praising crunch. It was about him handling trolls on twitter with humour. Feel free to read the OP to confirm though.
Sorry if this sounds like a pissy response or a put-down to you personally, it's not meant that way. I'm trying my best to stay out of the discourse, but I pop my head into this thread to see if anything has changed, and I just see the same argument regardless of the context or situation. Naughty Dog crunch, they bad. Ok, agreed. Can we agree that Druckman and others are putting up with a lot of shit with grace, and the people who are doing this should be dressed down?