Neil Druckmann discusses the meaning behind The Last of Us 1's ending (Spoilers for The Last of Us)

[Weltall Zero]

So you believe the Fireflies abusing her survivors guilt to allow them to murder her is fine? Not like they gave her a choice either. Marlene said as much that they kept her under using drugs cause they were afraid if she didn't want to go through with it.

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Two people can be wrong at the same time. Specifically, a person can be wrong, while another person murdering them while unarmed, injured and begging for their life can also be wrong.
I really don't know what's hard to grasp about this concept, unless you literally cannot see the world in anything but black and white.

 

[Deleted member 8561]

I dont know if im remembering correctly, it's been so long, but doesn't joel make the choice explicitly with the knowledge that there was a possibility that her death could have resulted in saving mankind? Like i thought that was the whole point, despite what ppl are pointing out about the fireflies, and that once joel realized that she was undergoing a lethal procedure he made the conscious decision to keep her with him instead?

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People need to stop framing a vaccine as "saving mankind". That's not what the vaccine is going to do, mankind is pretty much wiped out. Extrapolating aside, 60% of the world was dead/infected within the first year, and we're 20 years after the outbreak, when I say that 99.9% of humanity is probably dead I'm not joking (that's like 10 million people left on Earth based on the population on outbreak day). The only think a vaccine would do is making surviving easier.

Ellie was never awake, she never actually had a choice. The Fireflies didn't giver her a choice, they didn't give Joel a choice.

 

[Seeya]

Dude The Fireflies didn't even wake her up, the last thing Ellie remembers was fucking drowning and some random group was going to take an ice cream scooper to her brain to justify their bullshit.

Ellie can be pissed she was robbed of making a choice, but The Fireflies didn't even give her a choice, or Joel a choice. Nothing in Left Behind reinforces anything other than Riley's death causes her immense guilt. Saying that "letting Ellie choose suicide at the age of 14 while she is ripe with survivors guilt" is kinda fucking insane. Yea, Ellie is pissed, she has very valid reasons to be mad at Joel. That doesn't mean Joel's actions were in any way wrong. It's insane to have some random group filled with horrible people go, "Ok Joel, we're going to kill your daughter, you're going to fuck off, but you should be fine with it because she is super depressed and feeling insane survivors guilt (even though The Fireflies don't know this), so go home and fuck off or we will kill you", and thinking that Joel going "lol no" is somehow an unjustified response.

Your reading on Left Behind basically sounds really insane if "knowing what she wants" translates to assisted suicide at best and 1st degree murder of a juvenile by a bunch of desperate idiots at worst.

That's the critical flaw in Neil's interpretation, Joel didn't really have a choice or any say. They didn't let him talk to Ellie, see her, they put a 1911 to his skull and told him to pound sand. They 100% forced his hand and in effect had to "choose" for Ellie.

#FuckTheFireflies

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AS mich as people want to project onto TLOU our modern day value system. Ellie is not a child by our parameters.

Joel having a choice or not is irrelevant to his argument. There's no flaw in it.

 

[closer]

People need to stop framing a vaccine as "saving mankind". That's not what the vaccine is going to do, mankind is pretty much wiped out. Extrapolating aside, 60% of the world was dead/infected within the first year, and we're 20 years after the outbreak, when I say that 99.9% of humanity is probably dead I'm not joking (that's like 10 million people left on Earth based on the population on outbreak day). The only think a vaccine would do is making surviving easier.

Ellie was never awake, she never actually had a choice. The Fireflies didn't giver her a choice, they didn't give Joel a choice.

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No i understand that it realistically wouldnt have amounted to much, but i dont think that joel sussed this out before he went off, or at least i dont remember him doing so. The way i recall, he just completely cant accept the situation if ellie is going to die. I dont think there's any indication that joel doesn't think they can't reverse engineer it or that he cares that a potential vaccine can be made if it costs ellie's life

 

[Deleted member 8561]

AS mich as people want to project onto TLOU our modern day value system. Ellie is not a child by our parameters.

Joel having a choice or not is irrelevant to his argument. There's no flaw in it.

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She was going to school, had a crush, and had an entire year of finding who she was and self discovery. She is totally still a child, even if the envrionment she grew up in is life or death and she is exposed to horrible acts of violence. That's like saying that kids who grew up in warzones aren't kids... because they grew up in warzones.

 

[NightShift]

Um, that's fucking suicide, it doesn't matter how "noble" intentions are. Your justification for Ellie killing herself is because she is depressed about Riley and feels guilty over the fact that she is alive and Riley is infected/dead.

You're reading this situation 100% wrong, and I don't really like to say that regarding interpretations, but given the subject matter I feel it's important to explain this.

Ellie's theoretical choice to die wasn't to "save humanity", that's The Fireflies bullshit excuse. Ellie wanted to atone for her guilt, and if completing the mission meant her death then she was "ok" with that because she has been trying to find a way to justify why everyone she has encountered in the last year has died for her/because of her. This is the 7 Pounds issue all over again in terms of "suicide is ok because it's a selfless act", while ignoring that it's an act that is 100% driven by grief and motivated by self-hatred and guilt.

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Why else did the Fireflies want to scoop out her brains if it wasn't to find a cure?

I don't think we know enough about Ellie's thought process to think her decision was purely out of grief and guilt. The way I see it however is that her pain was used to motivate her so that nobody else will feel that pain again. Ellie's seen as incredibly sympathetic towards other people (to her own detriment) so I think that would absolutely be a part of her decision.

Two people can be wrong at the same time. Specifically, a person can be wrong, while another person murdering them while unarmed, injured and begging for their life can also be wrong.
I really don't know what's hard to grasp about this concept, unless you literally cannot see the world in anything but black and white.

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I don't think anybody's seeing it in black and white here. Clearly the Fireflies and Joel did bad. I'm arguing for what Ellie would have wanted more than anything.

 

[closer]

nm i forgot something lol

 

[Deleted member 8561]

Why else did the Fireflies want to scoop out her brains if it wasn't to find a cure?

I don't think we know enough about Ellie's thought process to think her decision was purely out of grief and guilt. The way I see it however is that her pain was used to motivate her so that nobody else will feel that pain again. Ellie's seen as incredibly sympathetic towards other people (to her own detriment) so I think that would absolutely be a part of her decision.


I don't think anybody's seeing it in black and white here. Clearly the Fireflies and Joel did bad. I'm arguing for what Ellie would have wanted more than anything.

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Um

What exactly do you think, "It can't be for nothing" means? Or, "I'm still waiting for my turn"?

The entire final scene is Ellie telling Joel that she is engulfed in survivors guilt. She explicitly talks about her thought process and what she has been feeling for the last year.



It's very clear and very explicit that Ellie's motivation was from her internalized guilt. She even lists the people she feels guilt and responsible for. She never ounce expounded on how she was doing this for "humanity", the only time we get glimpses into her motivation was in the Spring and the final cutscene when she goes over her survivors guilt and asks Joel to at least try to give her some type of bullshit lie so she can ease some of the guilt she has that is eating away at her.

And that last part is why Neil's interpretation is kinda "meh" in my view, he expands on the concept of Ellie being an independent person, but has completely glossed over the fact that she is trying to find a way to cope with her guilt. I think The Last of Us is amazing, it's one of my favorite games and it has amazing writing and acting, but that doesn't mean I think the actual writer really understands what her wrote in terms of how it has been acted and presented on screen. I think Neil to some degree is blinded by his own bias in his motivation for writing Ellie (that being his own daughter) and has blinders on in therms of the scope of what the ending explores regarding where the characters are fully at and the implications of Ellie's choice essentially being suicide.

The ending scene really doesn't expand on Ellie becoming an independent person, her arc in that respect completed after she made some roast beef strips using David's face. The ending scene starts with her being distant, dejected, and has her opening up to Joel that she is filled with guilt and doesn't know how to handle it. That's why when she says "swear to me everything you said about The Fireflies is true" it's not her asking Joel to tell the truth, it's asking Joel to lie to her, give her something to use as a way to help ease her mind.

She knows it's a lie, but people are able to lie to themselves all the time for comfort, and it 100% fit's with the theme of Joel finding peace but in effect passing his sorrow inadvertently onto Ellie from the simple fact that him saving her invalidated the entire journey and made everyone who died and suffered do so in vein, which is eating away at Ellie.

 

[RestEerie]

so ellie will hate joel's guts on part 2 huh?

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i wouldn't call it 'hate' but like many kids that grew up, they kinda drifted away from their parents as their way of thinking & lifestyles diverges.....And Joel's overprotective nature (in part due to Sarah's death) is not helping.

 

[ShutterMunster]

How many other games illicit this type of intense debate over its narrative and characters?

This is part of the reason I can't take some of the more vocal ND critics seriously. They are executing on a certain piece of the puzzle at a higher level than most and it's not because the rest of us aren't trying.

 

[LossAversion]

People keep arguing that Joel took the choice away from Ellie but she was never given a choice to begin with.

"Everyone that I've ever cared about has either died or left me... I'm still waiting for my turn... I'm totally in a sound state of mind to be offering my life to this incompetent group of murderers. But wait, they never gave me a choice to begin with... let alone an informed choice!"

But Joel tho!!

 

[closer]

How many other games illicit this type of intense debate over its narrative and characters?

This is part of the reason I can't take some of the more vocal ND critics seriously. They are executing on a certain piece of the puzzle at a higher level than most and it's not because the rest of us aren't trying.

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they told the story very well but I don't think it's really related to my own criticisms of the game. one of the great things about it is that the characters don't really seem to be able to do anything but the things they ended up doing, none of it is forgiveable in our society but they don't live in our society, and the inevitability of it really lends a great Epic Tragedy feel to it. it's not common in a game which makes it feel a bit singular. but I think there are plenty of avenues to criticize the game, tho i think the fervor of the criticism mainly has to do with ppl reacting to others lifting the game up so high and placing it on a pedestal rather than it being a particularly bad game or anything like that.

 

[NightShift]

Um

What exactly do you think, "It can't be for nothing" means? Or, "I'm still waiting for my turn"?

The entire final scene is Ellie telling Joel that she is engulfed in survivors guilt. She explicitly talks about her thought process and what she has been feeling for the last year.



It's very clear and very explicit that Ellie's motivation was from her internalized guilt. She even lists the people she feels guilt and responsible for.

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What people say and what people really feel are often not the same thing. In the same scene, Ellie calls Riley her best friend when clearly she means more to her than that. Maybe I'm reading too much into it but I feel like Ellie was still holding back her emotions. Same goes with the "Okay" which we now know wasn't very honest.

 

[closer]

we also have to compare how joel dealt with his survivor's guilt vs. how ellie does, that joel lives a markedly selfish life post-his daughters death, while ellie goes in a different direction, and that his post-meeting ellie life is also defined by a similar selfishness

this isn't a judgement, I don't think there is anything weird about the way joel behaves nor do I think Ellie is weird for the way she deals with things, like the trope of the loving irrational parent and the savior child aren't really new things and fundamentally resonate w/ a lot of ppl and help us feel that these characters are bound to being the type of ppl they are

I'm really excited to see how Ellie interacts with Tommy in TLoU2

 

[Seeya]

People need to stop framing a vaccine as "saving mankind". That's not what the vaccine is going to do, mankind is pretty much wiped out. Extrapolating aside, 60% of the world was dead/infected within the first year, and we're 20 years after the outbreak, when I say that 99.9% of humanity is probably dead I'm not joking (that's like 10 million people left on Earth based on the population on outbreak day). The only think a vaccine would do is making surviving easier.

Ellie was never awake, she never actually had a choice. The Fireflies didn't giver her a choice, they didn't give Joel a choice.

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Neil Druckman goes into this. For Joel's character arc to work it does. Hence 'damning all of humanity'. Beyond that there was no indication that it wouldn't have worked.

Also Ellie already made her choice when she said 'whatever it takes'. She was committed 100% no matter the cost. That was her choice that Joel took from her because the cost was too high for him to bear.

She was going to school, had a crush, and had an entire year of finding who she was and self discovery. She is totally still a child, even if the envrionment she grew up in is life or death and she is exposed to horrible acts of violence. That's like saying that kids who grew up in warzones aren't kids... because they grew up in warzones.

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No it's a cultural disconnect. You're viewing a completely different reality as comparable to our modern day. In previous points in time — hell today I'm places around the globe — she would be considered an adult.

 

[Deleted member 8561]

What people say and what people really feel are often not the same thing. In the same scene, Ellie calls Riley her best friend when clearly she means more to her than that. Maybe I'm reading too much into it but I feel like Ellie was still holding back her emotions. Same goes with the "Okay" which we now know wasn't very honest.

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I'm not really sure what that means, why would she tell Joel how horribly guilty she feels and... not mean it? Why would she say "I'm still waiting to die" and not mean it? She is pouring her heart and sorrow to Joel in the final scene. Her going "ok" was her "accepting" a lie that she knew was a lie. But in the context of the fact she is telling Joel she is "waiting to die" because of everyone who has died for her, it's pretty easy to see she is trying to find something to ease her guilt.

 

[Seeya]

People keep arguing that Joel took the choice away from Ellie but she was never given a choice to begin with.

"Everyone that I've ever cared about has either died or left me... I'm still waiting for my turn... I'm totally in a sound state of mind to be offering my life to this incompetent group of murderers. But wait, they never gave me a choice to begin with... let alone an informed choice!"

But Joel tho!!

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Her choice was to see it through to the end no matter the cost so long as it had the chance of helping people. Joel could have snuck into the room and forced them to wake her up and give her the choice, but he knew what she would say.

People try to say that the cure wouldn't have worked because it absolves Joel in their eyes and that's of greater comfort, but the truth is the cure working is instrumental to both of their arcs, and weither or not the cure had worked? Joel would have murdered everyone there without a second thought. Remember when Joel needlessly kills the surgeon? The nurse says 'you didn't need to kill him!', and she was right... that's why Joel is dangerous and completely selfishly consumed. That's not a judgement against him, he is what he is.

We can very much see the follow through of all of this in the latest trailer with Joel looking completely broken and Ellie being on guard at seeing him.

 

[Jiggy]

Nobody should have any confidence in the Fireflies creating a cure for anything. They should cure their own incompetence first before they murder more kids.

 

[Deleted member 8561]

Neil Druckman goes into this. For Joel's character arc to work it does. Hence 'damning all of humanity'. Beyond that there was no indication that it wouldn't have worked.

Also Ellie already made her choice when she said 'whatever it takes'. She was committed 100% no matter the cost. That was her choice that Joel took from her because the cost was too high for him to bear.



No it's a cultural disconnect. You're viewing a completely different reality as comparable to our modern day. In previous points in time — hell today I'm places around the globe — she would be considered an adult.

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Completely disagree. Joel's character arc is the fact that he lost his daughter to an authority that deemed her life was worth the sacrifice for the "greater good".

Sarah getting shot and killed to "secure the quarantine zone" did... what exactly? Oh right, it did fuck all.

This is the same justification The Fireflies give Joel. They are forcing him once again to make a sacrifice because Ellie's life has been deemed forfeit for the "greater good" of humanity.

Joel gets redemption in the fact that this time around he has agency in saying "fuck you" to authority that is making decisions with people he loves and fights back, when the first time around he had no option but to watch Sarah die in his arms.

His arc is basically "complete" when he is able to blow that smucks guts out and take control back from people who keep forcing decisions for him for "humanity". Even though we as players know, and honestly Joel kinda knows too, The Fireflies are full of shit and are just using Ellie for their own selfish reasons to keep the organization afloat.

Again, this is why Neil's take on the ending is flawed. He wrote The Fireflies as having a 100% shot of "saving humanity", even though in the game it's explicitly clear that humanity is surviving without a vaccine. The idea that Joel is damning mankind in his actions isn't needed for his character arc, and it isn't remotely backed up by what has been explored in the game itself.

 

[closer]

No it's a cultural disconnect. You're viewing a completely different reality as comparable to our modern day. In previous points in time — hell today I'm places around the globe — she would be considered an adult.

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her own personal experiences figure into this too, depending on whether you see the The Last of Us: One Night Live epilogue as canonical. she is portrayed as being different than the other children at Tommy's camp who are playing w/ water guns, instead preferring to keep busy.

 

[Seeya]

her own personal experiences figure into this too, depending on whether you see the The Last of Us: One Night Live epilogue as canonical. she is portrayed as being different than the other children at Tommy's camp who are playing w/ water guns, instead preferring to keep busy.

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Is there a link you can DM me?

 

[closer]

Is there a link you can DM me?

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i actually can't stand the performance so here's a wiki entry detailing it lol

https://thelastofus.fandom.com/wiki/Joel#Events_of.C2.A0One_Night_Live

it is not part of the actual game so I bet a lot of ppl wil argue about it, but it begins detailing the distance that is growing between the two and the way they both desire to be good with each other despite their relationship being fundamentally changed

 

[Deleted member 8561]

her own personal experiences figure into this too, depending on whether you see the The Last of Us: One Night Live epilogue as canonical. she is portrayed as being different than the other children at Tommy's camp who are playing w/ water guns, instead preferring to keep busy.

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I doubt it's officially cannon since it was quoted by Druckmann as a way of "saying goodbye" to Joel and Ellie."

At that point in 2014 the sequel wasn't in production, so at that point the intention was to give fans at the show a little closure regarding where they thought the characters would be sometime after the ending of the game.

 

[Seeya]

Completely disagree. Joel's character arc is the fact that he lost his daughter to an authority that deemed her life was worth the sacrifice for the "greater good".

Sarah getting shot and killed to "secure the quarantine zone" did... what exactly? Oh right, it did fuck all.

This is the same justification The Fireflies give Joel. They are forcing him once again to make a sacrifice because Ellie's life has been deemed forfeit for the "greater good" of humanity.

Joel gets redemption in the fact that this time around he has agency in saying "fuck you" to authority that is making decisions with people he loves and fights back, when the first time around he had no option but to watch Sarah die in his arms.

His arc is basically "complete" when he is able to blow that smucks guts out and take control back from people who keep forcing decisions for him for "humanity". Even though we as players know, and honestly Joel kinda knows too, The Fireflies are full of shit and are just using Ellie for their own selfish reasons to keep the organization afloat.

Again, this is why Neil's take on the ending is flawed. He wrote The Fireflies as having a 100% shot of "saving humanity", even though in the game it's explicitly clear that humanity is surviving without a vaccine. The idea that Joel is damning mankind in his actions isn't needed for his character arc, and it isn't remotely backed up by what has been explored in the game itself.

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That's an interesting reading but it's not as supported. You say we see verifiable proof but we litterally see nothing but failed or failing settlements, and one thing they all seemed to have in common? The illusion of control, safety, and certainty at a given point in time. Heck Joel even calls this sentiment foolish throughout. When we see Tommy's Paradise, we've been given all the information needed to know that it is not doomed, but far from certain because the game makes this message clear.

Also recall the power station, how they mention that attacks have been increasing etc.

The game goes out of its way to isolate those moments of certainty and show their outcomes repeatedly throughout. Just because the player is presented with one in the moment? Doesn't change anything. There are some good things about it's setup, but that's also necessary after the core lesson has been bludgeoned repeatedly.

There's is nothing explicitly clear about humanity 'surviving' without the vaccine. We get to see a single moment in time in the present that appears hopeful.

 

[Seeya]

I doubt it's officially cannon since it was quoted by Druckmann as a way of "saying goodbye" to Joel and Ellie."

At that point in 2014 the sequel wasn't in production, so at that point the intention was to give fans at the show a little closure regarding where they thought the characters would be sometime after the ending of the game.

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While not cannon, it and what we've Seen so far of TLOUII seem to be very much in line.

 

[closer]

I doubt it's officially cannon since it was quoted by Druckmann as a way of "saying goodbye" to Joel and Ellie."

At that point in 2014 the sequel wasn't in production, so at that point the intention was to give fans at the show a little closure regarding where they thought the characters would be sometime after the ending of the game.

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yeah that's totally fair, tho I like to think of the guitar part in it as linked to the guitar trailer when the game was announced.

The illusion of control, safety, and certainty at a given point in time.

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this is actually part of one of my criticisms of the game lol, but yeah this feeling is imo core to the identity of the game and why I kind of empathize with the torture porn sentiment. I literally thought the giraffes would die a horrible death!

 

[ShutterMunster]

they told the story very well but I don't think it's really related to my own criticisms of the game. one of the great things about it is that the characters don't really seem to be able to do anything but the things they ended up doing, none of it is forgiveable in our society but they don't live in our society, and the inevitability of it really lends a great Epic Tragedy feel to it. it's not common in a game which makes it feel a bit singular. but I think there are plenty of avenues to criticize the game, tho i think the fervor of the criticism mainly has to do with ppl reacting to others lifting the game up so high and placing it on a pedestal rather than it being a particularly bad game or anything like that.

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I know this to be true with so many works of art in today's social landscape. The difficult part is how disingenuous people are when you press them on this.

You don't really dislike this thing as much as you say you do. You just hate how everyone talks about it...but it's weird that that bothers you too.

 

[Deleted member 8561]

That's an interesting reading but it's not as supported. You say we see verifiable proof but we litterally see nothing but failed or failing settlements, and one thing they all seemed to have in common? The illusion of control, safety, and certainty at a given point in time. Heck Joel even calls this sentiment foolish throughout. When we see Tommy's Paradise, we've been given all the information needed to know that it is not doomed, but far from certain because the game makes this message clear.

Also recall the power station, how they mention that attacks have been increasing etc.

The game goes out of its way to isolate those moments of certainty and show their outcomes repeatedly throughout. Just because the player is presented with one in the moment? Doesn't change anything.

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I already went over this

What? QZ's have been abandoned for years by the time you reach them in TLoU. Boston is one of the last ones left, but it's a QZ that is smacked dab in the middle of a major city with limited natural resources and surrounded by decaying buildings that are littered with aged infected and airborne clusters.

Boston QZ - Military leaving soon because resources have run out and they can't support the population they have
Pittsburgh QZ - Civil war caused by The Fireflies, long abandoned and currently inhabited by the remnant population who hunts down other survivors for resources.
The Sewers - Was started soon after the outbreak started, unsure how long it lasted. High risk due to how close it was to a major city and the suburbs.
Tommy's Place - Prime location that has plentiful natural resources and is isolated from major cities
The University - Fireflies attempted to use the labs, but the infection from the former students and surrounding areas was too much to manage with the little resources they had
Cannibal Carnaval - They were doing pretty good till Joel showed up and ruined this man's whole career
Salt Lake City QZ - Military zone smack dab in the middle of a city. Limited resources, nobody knows how long it lasted

The only settlement we encounter where people are actually trying to make a new home are The Sewers, Tommy's Place and Lakeview. The only one out of those three that failed was The Sewers, and that was logically because it's inception was near the start of the outbreak in terms of the 20 year timeline. Other than that, the actual settlements that aren't 20 year old QZ's are doing pretty fine, even if they have to deal with raiders and infected from time to time. It's not "paradise", but it's clearly functioning as some type of general civilized society.

I'm not saying it's easy to make a group and survive, I'm saying that we have empirical evidence that it's clearly something that is achievable and is obviously happening all around the world at this point in time.

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The "failed settlements" are all fallen or failing QZ because they simply were never designed to become safe havens indefinitely. They were makeshift secured zones in the middle of cities, they were a last ditch effort by the government to try and save people, there was no long term plan or vision for them.

The only actual failed settlement that wasn't a QZ was The Sewers, and if you read the notes you would know it was set up shortly after the outbreak started timeline wise. We're 20 years removed, 25 years at the start of Part II. It's very clear that organizations and groups are growing and becoming more stable.

As for, also recall the power station, how they mention that attacks have been increasing etc.

That has nothing to do with the vaccine. That's people... killing people. A vaccine would arguably cause more people killing people because of how it would be used as a power tool over other groups who lack it.

And Joel is a jaded asshole who clearly has issues with his brother, hence the falling out part from Joel being a murderer during the early years of the outbreak before he made it to Boston (and even then he still kills people, but he's not hunting down innocents anymore)

 

[LossAversion]

Her choice was to see it through to the end no matter the cost so long as it had the chance of helping people. Joel could have snuck into the room and forced them to wake her up and give her the choice, but he knew what she would say.

People try to say that the cure wouldn't have worked because it absolves Joel in their eyes and that's of greater comfort, but the truth is the cure working is instrumental to both of their arcs, and weither or not the cure had worked? Joel would have murdered everyone there without a second thought. Remember when Joel needlessly kills the surgeon? The nurse says 'you didn't need to kill him!', and she was right... that's why Joel is dangerous and completely selfishly consumed. That's not a judgement against him, he is what he is.

We can very much see the follow through of all of this in the latest trailer with Joel looking completely broken and Ellie being on guard at seeing him.

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She would have done anything as long as she was told there was a chance of helping people because she was suffering from survivor's guilt. Why should Joel have to sneak into her room? Why wouldn't the fireflies allow Ellie to make an informed decision or say goodbye at the very least? Joel's motivations may have been purely selfish but that doesn't mean his actions were wrong when you consider Ellie's state of mind and the corrupt nature of the fireflies.

Also, I'm pretty sure that the player can choose whether or not to kill the surgeon (Who was holding a knife by the way).

 

[Deleted member 8561]

She would have done anything as long as she was told there was a chance of helping people because she was suffering from survivor's guilt. Why should Joel have to sneak into her room? Why wouldn't the fireflies allow Ellie to make an informed decision or say goodbye at the very least? Joel's motivations may have been purely selfish but that doesn't mean his actions were wrong when you consider Ellie's state of mind and the corrupt nature of the fireflies.

Also, I'm pretty sure that the player can choose whether or not to kill the surgeon (Who was holding a knife by the way).

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No, people were mad because they wanted to be the good guy or something. You can either shoot the surgeon or walk up to him and Joel auto stabs him, but he's dead no matter what. What you do with the nurses/assistants in the room is up to the player though.

 

[NightShift]

I'm not really sure what that means, why would she tell Joel how horribly guilty she feels and... not mean it? Why would she say "I'm still waiting to die" and not mean it? She is pouring her heart and sorrow to Joel in the final scene. Her going "ok" was her "accepting" a lie that she knew was a lie. But in the context of the fact she is telling Joel she is "waiting to die" because of everyone who has died for her, it's pretty easy to see she is trying to find something to ease her guilt.

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I don't think she didn't mean it. Like, yeah, she's feeling guilty but my point is that's not her only motivator.

Reading back my previous post I think I am reading too much with the honesty thing so I'm going back on that train of thought.

 

[Seeya]

yeah that's totally fair, tho I like to think of the guitar part in it as linked to the guitar trailer when the game was announced.



this is actually part of one of my criticisms of the game lol, but yeah this feeling is imo core to the identity of the game and why I kind of empathize with the torture porn sentiment. I literally thought the giraffes would die a horrible death!

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What critisisms do you have? The what you've framed things makes them sound well reasoned.

 

[HK-47]

She would have done anything as long as she was told there was a chance of helping people because she was suffering from survivor's guilt. Why should Joel have to sneak into her room? Why wouldn't the fireflies allow Ellie to make an informed decision or say goodbye at the very least? Joel's motivations may have been purely selfish but that doesn't mean his actions were wrong when you consider Ellie's state of mind and the corrupt nature of the fireflies.

Also, I'm pretty sure that the player can choose whether or not to kill the surgeon (Who was holding a knife by the way).

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Are they corrupt or just desperate like everyone else?

 

[antispin]

I love the way the game has set this up: As a person, I side with Ellie and feel that Joel handled the situation poorly. But as a father, I totally understand why Joel did what he did -- like, absolutely get it, no kid, you don't get to choose to die for the rest of the world.

I hope the sequel explores this setup well and it's the aspect of the game I am most looking forward to. Which is why I hope they won't kill off Joel at the start. The entire game needs to explore this dynamic between the two, because they were both right: Joel needs to see the state of the world and ask himself 'what-if'? Was what I did the right thing? And Ellie needs to perhaps see why Joel did what he did: because love for a person can be a strange, selfish, emotion that can end up hurting the person you claim to love and wish to protect. Maybe Dina's relationship can help build this for Ellie?

 

[Deleted member 8561]

I don't think she didn't mean it. Like, yeah, she's feeling guilty but my point is that's not her only motivator.

Reading back my previous post I think I am reading too much with the honesty thing so I'm going back on that train of thought.

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There really isn't anything pointing to another motivator. In terms of writing a story, there isn't a point in keeping a major character motivation secret because "well she just doesn't talk about it so the reader/consumer just wouldn't know".

If she was driven to "save humanity", she would have talked about it. She didn't, the only thing she ever talked about was the people who died for her and her immense guilt over that simple fact that the thing that kept her going is now never going to happen and she has no way of making the last year have any meaning.

Tess wanted to help Ellie because Tess wanted to do something good before she died. But that's Tess's motivation for helping Ellie, she finds redemption in Ellie potentially being a cure. The extension here is Ellie is motivated by Tess's death because Tess died for Ellie, and she feels responsible to keep going for her sacrifice. A sacrifice that turns out to have been in vein in respect to Ellie and the vaccine.

I love the way the game has set this up: As a person, I side with Ellie and feel that Joel handled the situation poorly. But as a father, I totally understand why Joel did what he did -- like, absolutely get it, no kid, you don't get to choose to die for the rest of the world.

I hope the sequel explores this setup well and it's the aspect of the game I am most looking forward to. Which is why I hope they won't kill off Joel at the start. The entire game needs to explore this dynamic between the two, because they were both right: Joel needs to see the state of the world and ask himself 'what-if'? Was what I did the right thing? And Ellie needs to perhaps see why Joel did what he did: because love for a person can be a strange, selfish, emotion that can end up hurting the person you claim to love and wish to protect. Maybe Dina's relationship can help build this for Ellie?

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The Fireflies put a gun to his head and told him they are killing Ellie and he needs to leave now or he will die. I'm not seeing how he handled the situation poorly when he was given no reasonable alternative.

 

[NightShift]

There really isn't anything pointing to another motivator. In terms of writing a story, there isn't a point in keeping a major character motivation secret because "well she just doesn't talk about it so the reader/consumer just wouldn't know".

If she was driven to "save humanity", she would have talked about it. She didn't, the only thing she ever talked about was the people who died for her and her immense guilt over that simple fact that the thing that kept her going is now never going to happen and she has no way of making the last year have any meaning.

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Just because she didn't talk about it doesn't mean it wasn't there or was a "secret". To me I thought it was clear that she still cared about everybody else and wasn't acting like somebody who didn't because she was just waiting to die. I may not be an expert on mental health or anything but there was nothing about Ellie that made me think she was suicidal.

 

[LukasHeinzel]

I always hated the ending, couldn't roll my eyes hard enough.

 

[HK-47]

I always hated the ending, couldn't roll my eyes hard enough.

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What was eye rolling about it?

 

[Matty H]

I'm wondering if he explained it because of the sequel's plot making clear what the "canon" interpretation would have to be anyway.

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That's the reason I never wanted a sequel. Now it's almost here, I just hope it doesn't diminish the original.

 

[oliverandm]

Figured as much. I remember being upset by the ending. I actually disliked the game a great deal for it, but then I came to acknowledge that the storytelling was making me upset on behalf of Ellie, and that all I wanted was her desired ending - and that I did respect Ellie's choice in this matter. I figured mankind would be saved. But then I too felt robbed in this proces. I didn't actually want to go through the ending. God knows I fell In love with the game, when I realized its emotional impact on me. Brilliant.

 

[Weltall Zero]

I don't think anybody's seeing it in black and white here. Clearly the Fireflies and Joel did bad.

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Sorry but that is emphatically not true. We had a thread about Joel's actions less than a thread ago and half the people were "Joel did nothing wrong". Hell, you have several of them in this very thread.

I do agree "what would have Ellie done" is at the crux of the issue, especially when neither of the involved seemed to care about it.

 

[Seeya]

There really isn't anything pointing to another motivator. In terms of writing a story, there isn't a point in keeping a major character motivation secret because "well she just doesn't talk about it so the reader/consumer just wouldn't know".

If she was driven to "save humanity", she would have talked about it. She didn't, the only thing she ever talked about was the people who died for her and her immense guilt over that simple fact that the thing that kept her going is now never going to happen and she has no way of making the last year have any meaning.

Tess wanted to help Ellie because Tess wanted to do something good before she died. But that's Tess's motivation for helping Ellie, she finds redemption in Ellie potentially being a cure. The extension here is Ellie is motivated by Tess's death because Tess died for Ellie, and she feels responsible to keep going for her sacrifice. A sacrifice that turns out to have been in vein in respect to Ellie and the vaccine.

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That still Ellie's decision and it's only in vain because of Joel.

There really isn't anything pointing to another motivator. In terms of writing a story, there isn't a point in keeping a major character motivation secret because "well she just doesn't talk about it so the reader/consumer just wouldn't know".

If she was driven to "save humanity", she would have talked about it. She didn't, the only thing she ever talked about was the people who died for her and her immense guilt over that simple fact that the thing that kept her going is now never going to happen and she has no way of making the last year have any meaning.

Tess wanted to help Ellie because Tess wanted to do something good before she died. But that's Tess's motivation for helping Ellie, she finds redemption in Ellie potentially being a cure. The extension here is Ellie is motivated by Tess's death because Tess died for Ellie, and she feels responsible to keep going for her sacrifice. A sacrifice that turns out to have been in vein in respect to Ellie and the vaccine.



The Fireflies put a gun to his head and told him they are killing Ellie and he needs to leave now or he will die. I'm not seeing how he handled the situation poorly when he was given no reasonable alternative.

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He was given every reasonable alternative that didn't involve murdering every single person including non combat personnel that were doctors and nurses just to protect himself. Which is entirely what his motivations are, with Ellie being his prop. His actions were not that of a reasonable entirely with it person.

She would have done anything as long as she was told there was a chance of helping people because she was suffering from survivor's guilt. Why should Joel have to sneak into her room? Why wouldn't the fireflies allow Ellie to make an informed decision or say goodbye at the very least? Joel's motivations may have been purely selfish but that doesn't mean his actions were wrong when you consider Ellie's state of mind and the corrupt nature of the fireflies.

Also, I'm pretty sure that the player can choose whether or not to kill the surgeon (Who was holding a knife by the way).

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So long as she was told and believed it? Yes. Because she deeply cares for other people and wanted to see things through whatever it the cost.

The fireflies are self motivated just like every other group, we don't see evidence of corruption. What we do see with them, and everyone else in the game, is effect that the very simple threat of infection has on people and society.

If Joel wasn't meant to be in the wrong why did they push you in that direction through gameplay in that sequence and then OTHER Joel in the final moments of the game, y'know?

Sorry but that is emphatically not true. We had a thread about Joel's actions less than a thread ago and half the people were "Joel did nothing wrong". Hell, you have several of them in this very thread.

I do agree "what would have Ellie done" is at the crux of the issue, especially when neither of the involved seemed to care about it.

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Yeah neither Joel nor the Fireflies gave a damn about Ellie's wishes, it just so happens that Ellie's wishes aligned with the Fireflies. Ellie isn't a 'live at any cost' person, and we can see the result of that value system w Joel at the end.

I already went over this



The "failed settlements" are all fallen or failing QZ because they simply were never designed to become safe havens indefinitely. They were makeshift secured zones in the middle of cities, they were a last ditch effort by the government to try and save people, there was no long term plan or vision for them.

The only actual failed settlement that wasn't a QZ was The Sewers, and if you read the notes you would know it was set up shortly after the outbreak started timeline wise. We're 20 years removed, 25 years at the start of Part II. It's very clear that organizations and groups are growing and becoming more stable.

As for, also recall the power station, how they mention that attacks have been increasing etc.

That has nothing to do with the vaccine. That's people... killing people. A vaccine would arguably cause more people killing people because of how it would be used as a power tool over other groups who lack it.

And Joel is a jaded asshole who clearly has issues with his brother, hence the falling out part from Joel being a murderer during the early years of the outbreak before he made it to Boston (and even then he still kills people, but he's not hunting down innocents anymore)

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The power station nearly fell and was important the the settlement. Just people killing people ignores that this state of affairs is happening because of infection.


The only reason the game gives Tommy's place a slightly better situation is to make it seem to have any potential of plausibility after he message has so clearly been delivered. We see failed or failing settlements and societies everywhere, not just the QZs.

We have no verifiable proof that Himanity is surviving long term. In the sequel that degenerative crazy cult is obviously many times that of the settlement but not likely to be viable and we'll see what happens with Tommy's place. None of this is a better alternative than a cure, longer term.

 

[Deleted member 8561]

Just because she didn't talk about it doesn't mean it wasn't there or was a "secret". To me I thought it was clear that she still cared about everybody else and wasn't acting like somebody who didn't because she was just waiting to die. I may not be an expert on mental health or anything but there was nothing about Ellie that made me think she was suicidal.

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I'm still waiting for my turn

That means "I'm still waiting for my turn to die". The implication is that if Ellie was actually given a choice where she is told you will die in order to make a vaccine, she would have done it because she feels guilty for being alive. She is suicidal in terms of how far she would go to cure her guilt and ease her anguish, which in this case was death, an outcome that she would have accepted because the pain she is going through for feeling responsible for everyones death is gnawing at her, and probably more than ever after she left Salt Lake City knowing it was all pointless.

If people want to argue that "Joel robbed her of her choice" (a choice that she never made in the first place), then you're going to be diving into her motivations for being "ok" with dying. The only motivation we have that was ever expounded on was her internalized guilt. You may think or hope that she was motivated to "save humanity", but the only people in this game who ever talked about this was The Fireflies, and their intentions were 100% selfish in using Ellie to save their organization from complete collapse.

I'm not sure why you keep assuming Ellie has this other set of primary motivations when no attempt was ever made to explore those other motivations. The last hour of the game is the first real time we see what's driving Ellie, and it spelled out that she is driven by her survivors guilt.

 

[Deleted member 8561]

That still Ellie's decision and it's only in vain because of Joel.



He was given every reasonable alternative that didn't involve murdering every single person including non combat personnel that were doctors and nurses just to protect himself. Which is entirely what his motivations are, with Ellie being his prop. His actions were not that of a reasonable entirely with it person.



So long as she was told and believed it? Yes. Because she deeply cares for other people and wanted to see things through whatever it the cost.

The fireflies are self motivated just like every other group, we don't see evidence of corruption. What we do see with them, and everyone else in the game, is effect that the very simple threat of infection has on people and society.

If Joel wasn't meant to be in the wrong why did they push you in that direction through gameplay in that sequence and then OTHER Joel in the final moments of the game, y'know?



Yeah neither Joel nor the Fireflies gave a damn about Ellie's wishes, it just so happens that Ellie's wishes aligned with the Fireflies. Ellie isn't a 'live at any cost' person, and we can see the result of that value system w Joel at the end.



The power station nearly fell and was important the the settlement. Just people killing people ignores that this state of affairs is happening because of infection.


The only reason the game gives Tommy's place a slightly better situation is to make it seem to have any potential of plausibility after he message has so clearly been delivered. We see failed or failing settlements and societies everywhere, not just the QZs.

We have no verifiable proof that Himanity is surviving long term. In the sequel that degenerative crazy cult is obviously many times that of the settlement but not likely to be viable and we'll see what happens with Tommy's place. None of this is a better alternative than a cure, longer term.

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Ellie was never given a decision. You need to explain what "reasonable alternative" Joel was given, because this scene



shows that The Fireflies gave Joel no "reasonable alternative". Marlene is about to slice Ellie open to save her organization, to use Ellie so that the last ~20 years of her organization being responsible for thousands of deaths wasn't in vain. Instead of letting Joel even see or talk to Ellie one single time, Marlene the merciful tells Joel to "not waste this gift", which implies that if Joel was anybody else they would have already killed him by now.

So again, explain where the "reasonable alternative" is? His actions were 100% justified, there is no wiggle room in somehow explaining why telling The Fireflies to eat shit is somehow "bad".

You are assuming that people attacking other human settlements is driven by the infection. We have the entire history of mankind that existed without a global plague that can easily show that it's the most natural outcome that people who don't have something will use force to take it from someone else.

It's been 20 years, if places like Jackson can be created and thrive compared to QZ's, then places similar to Jackson can 100% exist and function even with the infection being a threat. Removing the infection doesn't change the tribal nature of people, you're acting like a cure found suddenly makes the Pittsburgh Hunters not survive from setting traps and killing other people for their resources, or David's group stop eating people. None of that changes with a vaccine.

That's literally the entire point of Tommy's place, to show that the world is still salvageable even without a vaccine, that they were able to grow, expand and manage to repair a hydro dam in the same circumstances where people are running around cities murdering for supplies, QZ's failing from natural entropy and people deciding that eating other humans is their answer to survival.

None of your concerns regarding a vaccine would solve the issue with other groups attacking and taking what another group has, that's how humanity has functions since we started existing, it has nothing to do with the infection.

 

[JahIthBer]

Didn't the tapes say the cure was impossible to recreate & they already operated on people like Ellie? Joel did nothing wrong.

 

[Necron]

Didn't the tapes say the cure was impossible to recreate & they already operated on people like Ellie? Joel did nothing wrong.

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I thought it described that there were others before but Ellie looked like the most promising candidate so far to create a cure. Chances were still minimal by the sounds of it...

 

[Spinluck]

Creating, manufacturing, and distributing a cure was outside of the capabilities of humanity at the end. Joel saved Ellie from dying for nothing.

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It always seemed a like a long shot in the dark.

There were human characters in the game that came within inches of killing Ellie anyway.

Fuck em, that slight chance isn't worth the sacrifice of a child. Find another cure assholes.

 

[Thera]

"and I say it's my interpretation because it's not necessarily the ending... if you have a different interpretation that works with the facts that are in the story, then that's valid"
errrrr, I hate that. This is maybe valid if there isn't sequel, but we have one, so there is only one meaning, not "interpretation". Did they said to the actress to act like how she wanted or they gave her a script which tell her how to react ?

 

[HereticGrin]

Where in the Druckmann talk video is the ending discussed? (timestamp please)

 

[SunBroDave]

Where in the Druckmann talk video is the ending discussed? (timestamp please)

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It's mentioned in the OP, and the YouTube link should take you right to it. Around 31:00