What about hanging planets, how do we know they're not scared shitless up there?
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Neil deGrasse Tyson vs. Vegan - whose arguments do you side with?
- Thread starter nujabeans
- Start date
What about hanging planets, how do we know they're not scared shitless up there?
Im not pro meat or anything but what if vegan plantations kill or somehow harm the animals that live/lived there?
And I would argue they are two separate ethically issues. Eating a potato is ethical, but eating potatoes that were grown on land that was cleared of a local tribe (and resulted in the death of them) is not ethnical (as an extreme example). Eating an egg is not unethical (imo, of course) on its own. But, if that egg is produced in a factory farm where the hens are treated poorly, male chicks are killed instantly, etc, then of course it is unethical. It could even be argued that purchasing an ethically-created egg is unethical if eggs are considered a fungible commodity and demand for one increases demand for all sources...but that's getting a little deep into the issue.
Plants are sentient, but that's really not the point. The idea is that plants don't suffer, and that's why they are ok to consume as a vegan. I had this discussion with a meat eater and he was insufferable, comparing washing hands (killing bacteria) to slaughtering pigs, and if you are OK with one, the other should be ok too, and then also citing Neil de grasse tyson and his tree of life. Just edgelord bullcrap in my opinion.
I say this as a meat eater btw.
I say this as a meat eater btw.
Solid post and along the lines of what I was thinking.
Dietary restrictions of these kinds are ethically and culturally subjective but often spoken of in absolutes which leads to arguments and discord. The only near universal taboo is cannibalism but even that isn't absolute. Basically everything else is on the menu somewhere.
this is basically the same flippant argument, to most vegans the point is reducing the impact of your diet on the planet and on animals, and anything bad that happens in vegetable agriculture likely happens in animal agriculture or worse; picking vegetables is a rough job but slaughtering animals is much worse/much more dangerous.
Ethical vegans don't support the dairy industry in general because especially in the U.S. the majority of that is factory farms in which the cows and chickens live pretty horrible lives. And there's quite a few vegans who just think any exploitation of animals is wrong and we should not be taking things from them (hence why some vegans consider honey not to be vegan).
This describes literally no one though, cause they'd be dead. We're not talking about breatharians here.
The industry isn't gonna make advancements to lessen suffering unless they're forced to. It's not like they don't know how to treat animals decently, they just don't want to because it costs more money.
Probably because the system that produces those eggs is unimaginably cruel.
Why the US egg industry is still killing 300 million chicks a year
Hatcheries promised to stop killing male chicks by 2020. What’s taking so long?
www.vox.com
My dogs toys squeak when I stand on them, should I worry about their suffering?
I eat meat. I will continue to eat meat, I think. But I try and pay attention to where the meat is coming from. 🤷♂️
That said, I side with vegans. It's about reducing harm. Anyone trying to equate animals and plants is trying to score points and justify their belief system; they're not interested in truth
I know vegans who actively avoid squashing bugs
Plants are generally agreed to not be alive, or feeling, or sentient, in the same sense that animals are. That's the discussion happening in this thread
That said, I side with vegans. It's about reducing harm. Anyone trying to equate animals and plants is trying to score points and justify their belief system; they're not interested in truth
I'm not sure that either of these really qualifies:
I know vegans who actively avoid squashing bugs
Plants are generally agreed to not be alive, or feeling, or sentient, in the same sense that animals are. That's the discussion happening in this thread
What's the argument here? Saying it's bullshit is one thing, which I guess I get. But are you saying the gravity of the scream is contingent on brain size or something?
I've never heard of sentience used as an argument in this way before either. I always thought minimizing suffering and environmental impact were the two main reasons to be vegan or vegetarian.
As for the egg example, I'm think vegans avoid things like eggs and dairy products because the cows and chickens that are raised to produce those things usually aren't living in good conditions. But I'm also a layman so what do I know.
OP
OP
Neil deGrasse Tyson: "I value all life equally and I'm thankful for them. So when I'm eating a lettuce or a pig, it's okay because I'm thankful for their sacrifice."
Is it okay for cannibals to eat other humans for the taste and their sensory pleasure if they're thankful to the human that had to die for it?
Is it okay for cannibals to eat other humans for the taste and their sensory pleasure if they're thankful to the human that had to die for it?
doesn't NDT just do this obtuse contrarian stuff to get attention on twitter, don't even bother lol
It's from people who hate vegans and desperately want to guilt trip them.
It's pathetic.
I dont understand how anyone can argue or deny that veganism is morally superior to eating meat. Eating meat is 100% inhumane and cruel. It just feels like "plants feel too!" is some weak "gotchya" argument to justify what we do with animals.
I eat meat. I consider it to my our greatest moral issue for our civilizations, that one day will be greatly reduced and eventually flat out wiped out (never happening, but it is the ideal vision of a moral society).
I eat meat. I consider it to my our greatest moral issue for our civilizations, that one day will be greatly reduced and eventually flat out wiped out (never happening, but it is the ideal vision of a moral society).
Plants do not have a brain and as such cannot translate pain into a feeling. Therefore, any other argument doesn't even matter because they won't suffer as an animal will.
They are aware of what is happening, but they are incapable of actually feeling any anguish.Maybe not, but they feel pain.
Plants May Let Out Ultrasonic Squeals When Stressed
Human ears can’t hear them, but other plants or animals mightwww.smithsonianmag.com
Also that lovely fresh grass smell you smell on a newly cut lawn? Is actually the grass screaming out in agony and sending out an SOS for help.
Maybe not, but they feel pain.
Plants May Let Out Ultrasonic Squeals When Stressed
Human ears can’t hear them, but other plants or animals might
www.smithsonianmag.com
Also that lovely fresh grass smell you smell on a newly cut lawn? Is actually the grass screaming out in agony and sending out an SOS for help.
Yeah, that pretty much pushed me to the close button.
Also, I may not be a plant scientist, but I do remember that they "feel and can react to their surroundings".
I think there's a pretty strong correlation between vegans / vegetarians and people who try to avoid killing bugs or pests.
OP
OP
For "but plants feel pain too! So it's okay to kill animals for our food" people — if you really cared about what plants feel, you do know that more plants are consumed or "suffers" through the animal agriculture industry than by eating plants directly right?
My dietary choices are based on what will annoy and outrage those around me the most.
Because it's not about the screams. it's abut if there is any underlying conciseness that is capable of suffering. Structurally plants are quite a bit more simple than animals, there doesn't seem to be any pat of them that could give arise to conciseness like we observe in animals. Even if they could suffer eating them directly would still result in less suffering than if we fed them to animals first, it's more efficient calorie wise.
The very basic argument for veganism is harm reduction with respect to animals. If you don't need to harm animals to survive then don't.
And if it comes down to someone preferring human pleasure over an animals suffering, where do you draw the line with that? Fur? Dog fights? Beasality?
What? Maybe you are confusing vegans with vegetarians?
But if you´re sure of the argument show me something vegans eat/drink that comes from animals
The word "scream" is applying a connotation that the plants are experiencing some level of suffering. Doing a quick read of the actual study, plants will emit sound under a bunch of different conditions, from cutting to lack of water. The source of the sounds seems from cavitation, when air fills up plants xylem structures and causes them to "pop". This is not a new phenomena, and certainly does not indicate any level of consciousness. The study was merely trying to see if there is any value in measuring the sounds that plants emit at a precise level, and use those sounds as any sort of indicator of the plants condition.
Ultimately you get into the weeds on this kind of argument, when you are debating whether plants feel pain or not you kind of have lost the forest for the trees.
I eat meat, I know its not "morally ethical" but I do a lot of unethical things, I buy technology I use services I use the internet I wear Nike's I take vacations I watch movies and a LOT of people in far away countries and even in my area suffer as a result of the things I purchase or do. I don't go out of my way to research it, I don't "excuse" myself, but I have to rationalize it away as I can't worry about every single living thing on the planet all the time because I would just have to huddle in a ball not moving and going insane.
You try to minimize suffering when you can, one thing I absolutely won't do is waste food, and I try to eat less meat every year. I won't eat baby meat (veal, etc) and try to only buy grass fed, organic, non caged animal products but I just follow the labels and don't go all hyper-research mode about it. Hopefully the next generation does a little bitter, on and on, and yeah ultimately it would be great to see a society where no animals or plants are harmed. There's no reason we won't reach that stage at some point, things like Impossible Meat and future vat grown meat show the way.
I eat meat, I know its not "morally ethical" but I do a lot of unethical things, I buy technology I use services I use the internet I wear Nike's I take vacations I watch movies and a LOT of people in far away countries and even in my area suffer as a result of the things I purchase or do. I don't go out of my way to research it, I don't "excuse" myself, but I have to rationalize it away as I can't worry about every single living thing on the planet all the time because I would just have to huddle in a ball not moving and going insane.
You try to minimize suffering when you can, one thing I absolutely won't do is waste food, and I try to eat less meat every year. I won't eat baby meat (veal, etc) and try to only buy grass fed, organic, non caged animal products but I just follow the labels and don't go all hyper-research mode about it. Hopefully the next generation does a little bitter, on and on, and yeah ultimately it would be great to see a society where no animals or plants are harmed. There's no reason we won't reach that stage at some point, things like Impossible Meat and future vat grown meat show the way.
It's to do with treatment as well. Eggs aren't acquired in a very ethical manner.
I do know a vegan who keeps a few chickens as a pet and will eat the eggs because they're being given without cruelty.
I'd read that but not the actual study. But a lack of water does sound like it could be a condition of suffering.
But this part is helpful to the conversation. Thank you. I should have read the study.
I really dont see why this silly argument has to go beyond this at all. Such a stupid thing to get upset and riled over.
OP
OP
The vegan "agenda" is to cause the least amount of animal suffering for our lifestyle (diet, clothes, etc). By eating eggs, you contribute to the chicken industry that kills billions of male chicks every year and indirectly.
Vegetarians are something else, they don't eat meat but they may consume eggs, dairy, and other products that may use animals in their production.