they did not get better after the nadine backlash for uc4 (instead, they doubled down on it with lost legacy). why would they change? especially after all the praise lou2 got?
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Naughty Dog's Anti-Blackness (TLOU2 Spoilers)
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YikesAnd don't forget this enemy type from Uncharted 3, which is literally called a "Brute."
In multiplayer arena, they're always black. I'm not exaggerating.
Work on your phrasing here. "Not black enough" is something that gets lobbed at black people when they don't act stereotypically black enough for people. This would be different than having enough black people on the development and writing staff to have input on the game and sidestep these mistakes that ND keeps making.
To your point, however, it's absolutely possible for people not part of the groups we're talking about to write a character of another group. It takes a lot of work, research, and respect to do it well, which, especially when we're talking about videogames, isn't something that happens often. There are mistakes that people that aren't part of that group might make that will make it obvious it wasn't written by that group. So when OP says a trope based on racism dating back to slavery, that rears its head today in the way white women use the police as a weapon against the large brutish black man, there's a piece of crucial context and criticism you're overlooking in your attempt to defend the company. Because the scenario fight at the end of the game is absolutely rooted in the racist type of shit that black men experience every day in their relationship with America, white women, and the systems of authority to which we are subjected.
It's kind of crazy to think that Resident Evil 5 has more pro-active black characters with agency who fought off the infected hordes and lived, compared to the Naughty Dog games.
And that was a game that gave us... this.
ND does need to do better. The whole industry needs to do better. And it starts by having POC involved in the creative side of making the game and guiding its story and narratives.
And that was a game that gave us... this.
ND does need to do better. The whole industry needs to do better. And it starts by having POC involved in the creative side of making the game and guiding its story and narratives.
Ever been to Greece? Honestly never seen a Greek guy that looks like the old Kratos, if anything he reminds me of an Egyptian/Arabic look.
To be fair you could argue that Lev's casting and the character in game matching the actor in real life fairly well, is a positive change from how ND dealt with this stuff in the past.
I agree with the criticism of the "big black dude fight" being stereotypical, and certainly with the voice acting of Nadine they should have done better.
But I'm not understanding the criticism about the POC death scene, so please educate if wrong.... I thought Sam/Henry were amazing characters and the game made a very big deal of making the player love them a lot. They were pointely among the very few authentically good people left in the world. It made losing them hurt a lot, and I saw it as sowing sensitivity, compassion and empathy. Losing a character you liked so much seems to be very different from having a "red shirt" that dies first.
But I'm not understanding the criticism about the POC death scene, so please educate if wrong.... I thought Sam/Henry were amazing characters and the game made a very big deal of making the player love them a lot. They were pointely among the very few authentically good people left in the world. It made losing them hurt a lot, and I saw it as sowing sensitivity, compassion and empathy. Losing a character you liked so much seems to be very different from having a "red shirt" that dies first.
I just don't understand coming into a thread about antiblackness and saying "well but they have good representation of other groups." Okay, that's not what this thread is about. Representation and diversity isn't a scoreboard where if you run up the margins in certain categories it makes up for failures in others.
Neil has said a few times he checks in on Era occasionally. Hopefully he can see this and has seen past discussions regarding it to keep in mind for going forward.
The problem is that Sam and Henry are some of the only black people in the entire game alongside Marlene and all of them end up dead. They're sacrificial lambs for the story and for Joel and Ellie's personal arcs instead of characters with their own journeys and stories.
I'm not gonna hold my breath that any future ND game will have great or even decent minority representation that doesn't just boil us down to a stepping stone for the inevitable white main character.
Because dying for some violent white person's character development is the totality of black representation in TLOU.
The "um actually" brigade is full of shit, and they know it too, because it's about defending a game they've staked their happiness on in the face of legitimate criticism they can't easily deflect.
We're stretching this now.
The OP has made solid unassailable points. This is just innocuous.
Great OP!
I think a reason why this isn't focused on about so much (on top of the lack of diversity within games media in general) is that Naughty Dog crafts their stories so that every aspect of it 'makes sense.' Outside of the 'brute' boss fight they don't generally put characters in who don't serve a crucial purpose in the story, and since both stories are pretty much based around "people dying to further a white person's character," that means it 'makes sense' for the black side characters to die. In general there's also the whole "TLoU's world is shit and humans are bad!" thing that is often brought out to justify literally anything bad within the universe. In the end people can justify the problem to themselves because "it makes sense."
However what this whole argument ignores is that fiction never requires anything. Simply crafting your story so that it can't be easily 'torn down' with 'facts and logics' does not justify the story itself. Sure, Isaac dying makes sense for Abby-and-crew's character development, and it fits the game's themes at that point, but he still died because Naughty Dog deemed it as such. Similarly, Tommy, a white guy, survives being shot in the head because Naughty Dog needed him alive for a thematic and functional purpose in Ellie's story.
That boss fight, though. There's no possible way anyone can excuse or even attempt to explain that in anywhere near good faith. The guy doesn't serve a gameplay purpose, a story purpose, or a thematic purpose; he's literally just there to give Abby a scary boss fight similar to the Boomer in Ellie's Day 3. Which itself is strange because the game literally goes straight into the big climactic boss fight with Ellie.
I think a reason why this isn't focused on about so much (on top of the lack of diversity within games media in general) is that Naughty Dog crafts their stories so that every aspect of it 'makes sense.' Outside of the 'brute' boss fight they don't generally put characters in who don't serve a crucial purpose in the story, and since both stories are pretty much based around "people dying to further a white person's character," that means it 'makes sense' for the black side characters to die. In general there's also the whole "TLoU's world is shit and humans are bad!" thing that is often brought out to justify literally anything bad within the universe. In the end people can justify the problem to themselves because "it makes sense."
However what this whole argument ignores is that fiction never requires anything. Simply crafting your story so that it can't be easily 'torn down' with 'facts and logics' does not justify the story itself. Sure, Isaac dying makes sense for Abby-and-crew's character development, and it fits the game's themes at that point, but he still died because Naughty Dog deemed it as such. Similarly, Tommy, a white guy, survives being shot in the head because Naughty Dog needed him alive for a thematic and functional purpose in Ellie's story.
That boss fight, though. There's no possible way anyone can excuse or even attempt to explain that in anywhere near good faith. The guy doesn't serve a gameplay purpose, a story purpose, or a thematic purpose; he's literally just there to give Abby a scary boss fight similar to the Boomer in Ellie's Day 3. Which itself is strange because the game literally goes straight into the big climactic boss fight with Ellie.
It would have been nice if their memory had a lasting impact on Ellie and that was conveyed in Pt II outside of an easter egg in her bedroom, but ya' know TLoU Pt II doesn't really do much to convey its character's interiority and thought process.... so who knows.
This is a great topic and fantastic OP. I had been entirely ignorant to this in ND games, but it's actually gross.
I do like that when we get Sam and Henry. I've enjoyed their moments and TLOU isn't as good of a game without them.
Even Jameson in UC4, I enjoyed his scenes, is a minor character but at least has a happy ending.
I do think in game like TLOU where lots of people die, I tend to value their characterization and inclusion more than how they often end up (dead). This is not a defense but how I've sort of come to view these games and their representation, and my own bias. And they def should have handled that boss fight differently! As yeah it made me uncomfortable.
I will echo others here that this just one example of why we need more diversity in game dev.
Even Jameson in UC4, I enjoyed his scenes, is a minor character but at least has a happy ending.
I do think in game like TLOU where lots of people die, I tend to value their characterization and inclusion more than how they often end up (dead). This is not a defense but how I've sort of come to view these games and their representation, and my own bias. And they def should have handled that boss fight differently! As yeah it made me uncomfortable.
I will echo others here that this just one example of why we need more diversity in game dev.
I don't really mind the other characters getting killed off. It's zombie fiction, lot of mothafuckas get killed off. Not even the white heterosexual male main character from the first game is safe from being killed off.
the big black dude boss fight tho was HIGHLY sus, tho. And I'm still laughing to this day on Druckmann defending the Nadine casting. Like you seriously couldn't find one black voice actress, really? Like they were all inferior to the white woman who
Voices everything? Yeah aight bro
the big black dude boss fight tho was HIGHLY sus, tho. And I'm still laughing to this day on Druckmann defending the Nadine casting. Like you seriously couldn't find one black voice actress, really? Like they were all inferior to the white woman who
Voices everything? Yeah aight bro
Yeah that's pretty much where I'm at. I was really disappointed that they just repeated the same thing in the sequel. Like, seriously ND?
This. You know the sad part is I've just subconsciously accepted it at this point where I didn't even recognize it? Like I have no hope that they'll actually change this trope.
You're doing a satire here right? Dear lord. Some great points in the OP but this is absurd.
This is basically my opinion too. TLOU2 is likely the second best game I've ever played, but the issues the OP brings up are definitely valid points of contention and something ND needs to look into.
Naughty Dog may not have actual racist intentions since their games are surprisingly diverse, for all different types of minorities, be it lesbians, transgender folk, female protagonists, Asians, Arabs (having brown Muslims shown as the good guys in Uncharted 3 was a genuinely shocking positive surprise), key Black characters and so on, but they ought to have made an exception to the "all but the key characters in TLOU world die" premise by allowing at least just one black character to live. All of them dying in both games is simply a bad look, even if the that connotation was unintentional.
Good post.
I think tlou 2 did some things very right, bit it also did a whole shit ton of stuff wrong. It's ok to criticize what they did wrong while praising what they did right.
TLOU has a big problem with treating gruesome deaths as "motivation" in general.
Yea, I don't think it is an intention, but definitely a jarring blindspot that needs addressing for future games. Part of the issue can be course corrected with more diversity in the team.
Though I did really enjoy TLoU2, it's overall story and excellent game mechanics, I couldn't help but feel this all the way throughout the game. It definitely focuses purely on its 2 main characters (and other white named characters), to the exceptional detriment of all the games minority characters.
Though there is absolutely far more representation in this game than any other game that I can remember playing, that doesn't mean that it doesn't have it's own pitfalls, clearly driven by the game leads' own biases.
I hope this thread provides further learning for both ND staff and others to continue to improve representation and how those characters are leveraged within games going forward.
Though there is absolutely far more representation in this game than any other game that I can remember playing, that doesn't mean that it doesn't have it's own pitfalls, clearly driven by the game leads' own biases.
I hope this thread provides further learning for both ND staff and others to continue to improve representation and how those characters are leveraged within games going forward.
It's why I keep pointing to HBO's Lovecraft Country as the epitome of why diversity matters in all areas of production. The show has been a gem and it's so refreshing to see black faces of all types and ages get a chance to be more than a stereotype.
I gave ND a pass on Nadine because they changed the character model after they cast Laura Bailey, but after thinking about the limited amount of roles available to black voice actors, they should've recast the part.
I gave ND a pass on Nadine because they changed the character model after they cast Laura Bailey, but after thinking about the limited amount of roles available to black voice actors, they should've recast the part.
I mean, in terms of actual representation in general they've done well, particularly since TLOU, but they haven't been able to manage their fates well. PoC representation has been the worst offender since pretty much all of them ended up dead in both TLOU & TLOU2 (as far as I can remember). It sucks because TLOU (and Left Behind) had pretty strong black characters, but were all killed off. It's also important to point out that also since TLOU they've been doing well casting the right voice actors/actresses for minority roles (with the exception of Nadine of course which was pretty unfortunate and definitely over shadowed (with good reason) whatever efforts they went through to hire black and/or other minority actors that were accurate with the characters they were playing).
I think their representation in games has been quite progressive lately, but they definitely need to get their shit together in how they represent minorities, particularly PoC. I only hope the rumor of the black lead for one of their upcoming games is true.
I brought that example up in response to someone asking about him being open to listening to others about his ideas and writing, not the quality of the actual writing itself. Personally I think it's good that he's open to making such changes and listening to his team even if he has other elements he needs to work on.
This makes it exactly 0% better: the lynching in question was Palestinians lynching IDF soldiers. So that's a fun little undercurrent as well.
Like seriously, ik Henry had to kill his brother, but...... Did they really need to have him kill himself??
Great thread OP, a lot of things you pointed out passed by me - I only started feeling something off after the Abby's fight. The black guy obviously took the place of a scientific experience gone wrong, or an alien "brute", if the game was a sci-fi.
The scars as a whole are treated as non-humans, left out of the plot. They are the Other, they are a Threat. No one questions that!
About Nadine, not much to say, but uncharted series as a whole is disappointing in the representation side, since it has the whole treasure hunter, mercenary "soldier of fortune" ethos to get some inspiration, it easily fit more diverse characters (even if those themes in particular are problematic on their own).
As a Latino I was mainly focusing on the character Manny, and i was surprised to see how it manages to tick every box stereotype wise with such a low screen time.
The scars as a whole are treated as non-humans, left out of the plot. They are the Other, they are a Threat. No one questions that!
About Nadine, not much to say, but uncharted series as a whole is disappointing in the representation side, since it has the whole treasure hunter, mercenary "soldier of fortune" ethos to get some inspiration, it easily fit more diverse characters (even if those themes in particular are problematic on their own).
As a Latino I was mainly focusing on the character Manny, and i was surprised to see how it manages to tick every box stereotype wise with such a low screen time.
Reminds me of a certain star wars movie. Just replace the Ellie avatars with Rey...
It's why I'll never buy a Sucker Punch game again.Yes, the two brothers starring in Infamous Second Son are modeled after their white actors even though the characters were Native American, so they darkened and changed the actors' features to suit Native American depictions of them. Darker skin, hair, eyes etc.
It's like they went out of their way to avoid having to work with a Native American.
This is a huge issue for me as well. I am tired of playing white protagonist period, and minority characters getting shit end the stick. It extends further than this. I played RE 3 remake over the weekend, I really dislike how Carlos was portrayed. I am sorry to hijack your thread like this. I am just tired of it and wanted to point out. Something needs to change!
They did because, you see, it shows what would happen if Joel were to lose Ellie. It really strengthens their bond and makes it so that the moment where Joel is in danger of losing Ellie hits a lot harder. Also it gives Ellie another reason to have survivor's guilt, which is clear in the fact that she doesn't even mention his name when explaining her survivor's guilt to Joel at the end of the game. And also the world of The Last of Us is brutal and tough and people just die in it, so it makes sense for Henry to die as well, just as it made sense for Tommy to survive a shot to the head with no immediate medical attention.
You see, you are wrong. Because it makes sense.
(This is massive sarcasm btw.)
People really don't see a problem with this.... it's hard being black, already dealing with regular AND institutionalized racism, see every black person in a series you love be gruesomely killed for no other reason and people brush it off as nothing. We talk about representation, but how many actually care? Like agreeing is all fine but until shit change, minority groups will be viewed like that in games for awhile. It would be great if there was an all balck dev studio imo just because I believe it would birth a game with none of the caricature stereotypes( like with Japanese games with black characters with giant afros and being comedy relief ,or in most games with the black man being always viewed as a threat.) I think people also don't understand how big San Andreas was for a lot of black people just because there was this big game series, putting a black man as the protagonist, iirc cj was one of the first black protagonist in a popular series( ik cj was a gang banger and murderer, but at least he had somewhat of a heart and just wasn't mercilessly killing everyone, at least mission wise)
I'm gonna be honest, I didn't think much of it at first (I'm latino), but the Sam/Henry arc was...unpalatable to me. It felt off, and I can say that you have opened my eyes in that respect. I can't believe I didn't notice myself that not a single black made it through the entire saga. Hurts doubly because I complained that tv series always showed us latinos as either (deserved) victims or mostly perps.
So I wanted to thank you for your post, and I'll have to make better introspection.
So I wanted to thank you for your post, and I'll have to make better introspection.
Not to dismiss what ND brought to the table for gender representation, but this is the issue with a mostly straight white male team: when they try to be woke they miss a lot of stuff. There is no replacement for actually hiring minority/under-represented people into your team and *listening to their feedback*.
The big black monster fight was absolutely insane. The whole time I was like this feels hella racist. No clue what naughty dog was thinking with that fight.
This was stuff I noticed too. I was someone who stuck up for ND with the Nadine stuff, mainly cause I took it at face value. I can get that the voice actor was chosen before the actual character was designed, and they wanted to add some diversity to the UC4 roster after the fact. It didn't really stick with me well that they should remove Baily's position because of that. However, in learning more about the voice acting industry and representation of (actual) people of color within the industry, it definitely gave me a more informed opinion and changed my mind. These problems in LoU further kinda spot light the problems in the representation of PoC within ND.
Something else I think ND needs to improve on is their representation of Latinos and Muslim Americans as well. ND lives in LA yet they still seem to struggle with Latino representation. Didn't appreciate it not existing for the most part, and when it did, the character was a poor representation of it. Almost Everyone that works there is white, despite being surrounded by competent and hard working Latino population, so maybe it shouldn't be surprising. Meanwhile, Muslim Americans seem to be nonexistent. Neil grew up in Israel and has brought it up in several interviews (as I recall), so I was always curious how he might write a Muslim character. He seems to have just avoided it all together, which is disappointing.
Something else I think ND needs to improve on is their representation of Latinos and Muslim Americans as well. ND lives in LA yet they still seem to struggle with Latino representation. Didn't appreciate it not existing for the most part, and when it did, the character was a poor representation of it. Almost Everyone that works there is white, despite being surrounded by competent and hard working Latino population, so maybe it shouldn't be surprising. Meanwhile, Muslim Americans seem to be nonexistent. Neil grew up in Israel and has brought it up in several interviews (as I recall), so I was always curious how he might write a Muslim character. He seems to have just avoided it all together, which is disappointing.
I've never played any of their games for any length of time, but I appreciate you putting the time together to make this observation.
Is clearly an issue that even if it isn't overtly intentional, it creates an undercurrent message regarding the value or purpose of different groups within the worlds that they are choosing to make.
It still has impact and influence and they really are Fucking this one up royally. The depiction of people of color, especially black lives in this instance, of being so readily discarded by the narrative is pretty gross. Especially as a vehicle for someone else's, and particularly, a white persons story.
Is clearly an issue that even if it isn't overtly intentional, it creates an undercurrent message regarding the value or purpose of different groups within the worlds that they are choosing to make.
It still has impact and influence and they really are Fucking this one up royally. The depiction of people of color, especially black lives in this instance, of being so readily discarded by the narrative is pretty gross. Especially as a vehicle for someone else's, and particularly, a white persons story.
Looking back on it, I should have expected as much considering what the team composition is like at the studio.
This is very similar to Insomniac which wasn't as big of a deal (imo) for the first Spiderman but with Miles Morales coming up there should be more BIPOC representation in a BIPOC superhero game.
It's a strange thing, then I guess not in the country where white women suffragists got the right to vote while leaving Black women and anyone else not white twisting in the wind with old Jim Crow. Black residents in Georgia are still having their right to vote infringed upon through the south.
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Neil has said in a few videos that he has checked in here sometimes. Obviously has never posted and don't know if he even has a secret account. He likely has read into some threads about the game.
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