-
Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.
Naughty Dog's Anti-Blackness (TLOU2 Spoilers)
- Thread starter Skittles
- Start date
- Status
I think it's supposed to mirror the scene at the end of the original, when Joel kills the Fireflies' leader in order to "save" Ellie.
That doesn't excuse what other people is saying here. I hadn't really noticed what it's been pointed out in the thread, but it's certainly an interesting read and I appreciate that there is people taking their time to explain it to others.
In general this is something that's new to the world of voice acting as its only become a prominent issue, and one listened to and acted on by the creative side, in the last couple of years, if that. I'd argue ND has gotten better about that as well as I don't think they've cast any people as entirely different races as the character they portray. I even think Lev's VA is trans.
Thinking about, ND really doesn't have a black character outside of Nadine that has a character arc. And she's played buy a white woman! And that Saraphite melee boss (scary black guy trope) was really bad. Undeniably bad.
They really need to step the fuck up with their next project. They've got the accessibility stuff down and it's great. Now they need to try and step outside of the whiteness when it comes to their characters.
Good write-up.
They really need to step the fuck up with their next project. They've got the accessibility stuff down and it's great. Now they need to try and step outside of the whiteness when it comes to their characters.
Good write-up.
I think a big part of the problem is that the creative power in Naughty Dog would appear to be a bunch of white guys. Just like straight people can never comprehend just what it's like to be LGBTQ(etc) nor what it's like for those people to live in a world made for The Straights white people just don't get what it's like for black people and without some help they will fumble the execution of plotlines and characters beats for black characters in their games. Not to say they can't write good, well represented stories but generally you're gonna need an outside perspective to help this process.
This is all conjecture but it seems to be Neil Druckmann has a very specific idea for his games and he doesn't take the time to invite an outside perspective to give his games the once over so they can say "Hey, this, this and this could probably do with being changed". Or if he has the advice was disregarded.
I don't think Naughty Dog in general is purposefully anti-black, i would hope it's just something that has happened due to ignorance and a lack of care. Like the whole Laura Bailey thing, it's really bad but maybe no one has ever taken the time to sit the big boss man down and tell him this is a giant fuckup?
This is all conjecture but it seems to be Neil Druckmann has a very specific idea for his games and he doesn't take the time to invite an outside perspective to give his games the once over so they can say "Hey, this, this and this could probably do with being changed". Or if he has the advice was disregarded.
I don't think Naughty Dog in general is purposefully anti-black, i would hope it's just something that has happened due to ignorance and a lack of care. Like the whole Laura Bailey thing, it's really bad but maybe no one has ever taken the time to sit the big boss man down and tell him this is a giant fuckup?
We all know Nadine is a white actress, but Chloe Frazer was also retconned as Indian to make an Indian game and she is also a white actress
so the two minority stars were white actors. not to mention this isn't the only time Naughty Dog's full story involving a minority is kept in DLC and not the main game.
but this isn't just Sucker Punch and Naughty Dog. Kratos was also given more Euro-centric features for God of War reboot, though he is still voiced by black actors. His eyes got lighter, nose slimmed, etc to make him pass more for the nordic hero tone they chose.
so the two minority stars were white actors. not to mention this isn't the only time Naughty Dog's full story involving a minority is kept in DLC and not the main game.
but this isn't just Sucker Punch and Naughty Dog. Kratos was also given more Euro-centric features for God of War reboot, though he is still voiced by black actors. His eyes got lighter, nose slimmed, etc to make him pass more for the nordic hero tone they chose.
Also, just wanted to say thank you for making this thread. They're always good for weeding out the bad apples.
I wasn't surprised to see some people I had already muted coming in here and defending the way black characters were represented. Criticizing the "GOAT," even when it comes to subjects like anti-blackness, is still a red line for them I guess.
Thanks again.
I wasn't surprised to see some people I had already muted coming in here and defending the way black characters were represented. Criticizing the "GOAT," even when it comes to subjects like anti-blackness, is still a red line for them I guess.
Thanks again.
What is with the hostility? I am reading every post in this thread. I liked Yara's moment and explained why, I also explained how it could have been handled differently (shooting Isaac in the arm).
It just strikes me as a little odd, especially for the game that features a Asian, transgender character as a central key character to be picking the biggest battle with. Why not throw the shame at literally every other AAA game that has come out in the past five years? They didn't even bother to do that much.
ND can improve and I hope they will in their future titles.
I do
That's why I said that I would have loved if Abby was black
Treating Nora and Isaac "the same" as every other character was maybe more than the rest of the industry would have done, but I agree that it wasnt good enough
And I agree that the boss fight was bad
The way Ellie came at Nora was not fine lol. She literally bludgeoned her with a pipe even though her time was already cut by falling into the spores. There was no reason for Ellie to go down there outside of torturing her. It was very uncomfortable watching that all unfold.
I may be wrong here because I didn't play the game, but I got the impression from trailers that Dina was supposed to be of Middle Eastern or South Asian descent? They have a white woman (Shannon Woodward) voicing her.
We all know Nadine is a white actress, but Chloe Frazer was also retconned as Indian to make an Indian game and she is also a white actress
so the two minority stars were white actors. not to mention this isn't the only time Naughty Dog's full story involving a minority is kept in DLC and not the main game.
but this isn't just Sucker Punch and Naughty Dog. Kratos was also given more Euro-centric features for God of War reboot, though he is still voiced by black actors. His eyes got lighter, nose slimmed, etc to make him pass more for the nordic hero tone they chose.
I honestly don't know why they did this. I always figured Chloe was Italian in her initial appearance.
Only way I see them course correcting this, is by casting a black actor/actress in the main role of their next game (a sci-fi futuristic thriller, please!).
The Nadine controversy was inexcusable even back in 2015... I remember them trying to justify it by saying they also had a black actor play a white character (a total unknown, unimportant character though).
EDIT:
The character in said sci-fi game should preferably also be black!
The Nadine controversy was inexcusable even back in 2015... I remember them trying to justify it by saying they also had a black actor play a white character (a total unknown, unimportant character though).
EDIT:
The character in said sci-fi game should preferably also be black!
Last edited:
You hit the nail on the head. I love ND's games but this needs to be said. The worse thing is that it's often not intentional and instead just pure ignorance, which I can honestly say from my own experiences working in game development. These just aren't things white creative leads consider for the most part and unfortunately it's only going to continue until more we have more diverse leadership teams.
Wanna also mention that Chloe being retconned as Indian was some lazy shit.
Wanna also mention that Chloe being retconned as Indian was some lazy shit.
Dina is Jewish American, and it does an excellent job highlighting her heritage in the game itself. Having probably the first synagogue in a video game, maybe ever?...
Seeing and understanding are not the same thing. You're in the topic to defend the game, which means you're reading every post, not to understand anything, but to see from what angle you can justify it all. Which is what you then do.
It ain't cute.
Well Neil brought in Halley to be the majority writer for this(and going forward). Lev's VA was also brought in specifically to have someone actually trans to voice and help for writing the character. I'm hoping they bring in more diversity going forward and to have someone that is black have a bigger role with writing.
I hate to derail this thread but I feel like it isn't even just them being anti-black (which to be honest, as a white guy I hadn't even realized, and I appreciate you pointing out) but Lev's character arc basically only being about him being trans and then making Abby look like a better person for supporting him (after his family and everyone else spent so much time deadnaming him and treating him like shit for being trans) and now realizing the whole thing with the black "characters" all dying and with the blatant "black brute" caricature (which I actually did notice but didn't think much about it much, so I guess I am part of the problem) and then the whole Nadine thing apparently being the only black ND character that lives but is voiced by a white girl (which I didn't even know about, on account of me thinking Uncharted is bland and boring as all hell) is so much of a "holy fucking shit" moment to me that this is crazy.
I don't think I can think of an actually worse case of blatant racism from another AAA studio across several games, other than maybe Takeo from Call of Duty Zombies being an offensive Japanese stereotype voiced by a white guy with an almost offensive accent, but at the same time the other characters were all "offensive" stereotypes of the other factions of WW2 (Richtofen was the crazy nazi scientist with a strong accent, Nikolai was a drunk Russian wife beating soldier with a strong accent and Dempsey was a gung-ho stupid American) and I don't think there was much of a push to have him replaced or even any comments about his performance as Takeo anyway
Again though OP, thank you for really pointing this out, because holy shit their representation of black people has been fucking awful
I don't think I can think of an actually worse case of blatant racism from another AAA studio across several games, other than maybe Takeo from Call of Duty Zombies being an offensive Japanese stereotype voiced by a white guy with an almost offensive accent, but at the same time the other characters were all "offensive" stereotypes of the other factions of WW2 (Richtofen was the crazy nazi scientist with a strong accent, Nikolai was a drunk Russian wife beating soldier with a strong accent and Dempsey was a gung-ho stupid American) and I don't think there was much of a push to have him replaced or even any comments about his performance as Takeo anyway
Again though OP, thank you for really pointing this out, because holy shit their representation of black people has been fucking awful
We're "picking the biggest battle" because of how Naughty Dog consistently treats its black characters.
TLOU2 did well as far as representation in a lot of ways but the OP's criticisms are 100% fair and on the mark. I truly believe representation is a cycle. An industry that is very "straight white male" is going to have blind spots for this stuff a lot of the time, which is why it's both important to have people of all sorts of different ethnicities, backgrounds and cultures on these development teams, and conversely, why it's important to push for representation in the games themselves to make that next generation of future minority game developers feel like this is an industry that is inclusive to them.
I was still tilted by Joel's torture/murder at this point - so I took sick glee in getting my pound of flesh in this part.
But was left with weird emptiness coming back to Dina covered in blood.
I guess that's point.
Revenge is an ouroboros.
I know, but all the WLF members Ellie were after suffered, Nora could've just as easily been one of the guys at the start who were tortured/killed by Tommy that Ellie comes across, or the guy Ellie shanks in the throat, etc.
What happened to Nora on it's own doesn't feel like anti-blackness to me, but when you compound it with everything else in the story regarding black people... it's not a great look.
Yes, this is a topic worth discussing that got lost in the shuffle around TLOU2's release due to all the other controversies. Thanks for putting together the lengthy and well-written post, OP. I don't have much to add besides saying that I agree and hopefully ND takes note and makes an effort to improve going forward- both in terms of their hiring practices and representation of minorities in their games.
My first (kneejerk) reaction was going to be one of denial: "Surely, I think I've seen tons of representation in TLOU/2 ... and UC4 has the awesome Nadine!"
But then I started to think, tried to remember even one black/ colored character arc that was satisfying/ didn't end in tragedy at best or as a monster at worst (Nadine of course had the whole very disappointing VA problem).
Couldn't find one.
I love their games, but ND can (and I hope will) do better.
But then I started to think, tried to remember even one black/ colored character arc that was satisfying/ didn't end in tragedy at best or as a monster at worst (Nadine of course had the whole very disappointing VA problem).
Couldn't find one.
I love their games, but ND can (and I hope will) do better.
I honestly didn't think about any of this while playing but you're absolutely right. Yikes, ND.
Dina's ethnicity is never specified. We just find out she is Jewish, but we can't say for sure on her origin.
Greek people come in a variety of looks, and include people of origins in Egypt, Turkey, Italy, and more. Kratos evoked these features to many, but was absolutely given more white-evoking looks for the reboot.
Yeah, minorities haven't been treated well in any of Naughty Dog's games and I guess Nadine was supposed to be like a remedy but they cast white bread laura Bailey doing a 90's anime level accent
I don't know if that makes it better or worse? Like I see a character like that who's so CLEARLY of non-white descent and then I see Shannon Woodward voicing her and it sucks because I like Shannon a lot and want her to get work but it would be better if someone who matches the character more closely were playing the part.
Ah, was not aware of that. Seems like it was a failing on both their parts then. I admit to being ignorant about screenwriting in general, is it common practice for say writers of TV/movie/videogames to have some sort of editor go over their scripts or plotlines to give feedback to try to avoid these kind of Kill The Gays/Black Character Dies First tropes?
Appreciate you, OP. You're absolutely right. Naughty Dog has barely moved the needle on representation, properly. It would be nice if they could learn from all this but I'm not so confident they will.
Greek people come in a variety of looks, and include people of origins in Egypt, Turkey, Italy, and more. Kratos evoked these features to many, but was absolutely given more white-evoking looks for the reboot.
Wow I didn't even notice this before. Not a good look.
Yes. They did this with Reggie, too. Reggie is literally just Travis Willingham sans facial hair:
Both of the Rowe brothers are modeled after their white voice actors.
fucking christ, say what you will about Ghost of Tsushima but compered to second son where they made a fake tribe and cast two white boys as the native main characters it's way less awkward
Yeah, it's definitely unfortunate because even though ND has been quite progressive, they have dropped the ball with black characters when it comes to TLOU and TLOU2. You would think they wouldn't do the same thing in the sequel, but they did.
Hopefully that rumor of a black lead in one of their upcoming games is true and they can do the character justice.
Hopefully that rumor of a black lead in one of their upcoming games is true and they can do the character justice.
As much as I love Naughty Dog titles man, it sucks to feel this way. As a black man I hope that in one Naughty Dog title we have one as the protagonist (or the protagonist's side) that doesn't end up getting killed/dying. After both of these TLOU titles, Nadine being a villain in that one Uncharted game, man it sucks. I love these games but I wanna be represented right.
Good OP, I love the game but it's not something that can be ignored.
I won't give ND the benefit of the doubt and I hope (For everyone's sakes, we need diverse representation and while ND have made some good efforts, it is clear they are lacking and ignorant in other areas) that ND gets better. And start hiring more black writers (Or at least non-white) to get this stuff right in the future.
I won't give ND the benefit of the doubt and I hope (For everyone's sakes, we need diverse representation and while ND have made some good efforts, it is clear they are lacking and ignorant in other areas) that ND gets better. And start hiring more black writers (Or at least non-white) to get this stuff right in the future.
It definitely seems like they were intentional with specifically handling the lgbt aspects in basically every way in that regard. It seems like there is still a blindspot in handling non white characters though.
What interests me the most about Lev is that they wanted help to write the character correctly. I suppose if every new game is taking criticism into consideration it's probably going in a good direction. The criticism needs to be expressed. The correct moves need to be appreciated so they continue.
A game (ostensibly) doing something well in one area does not excuse it from doing things poorly in others. And what on earth?
"ND can improve and I hope they will in their future titles."
We're not talking about what they could do; we're talking about what they have done already, over multiple games. It's a pattern that you can't just wave away and hope for better next time. Wtf?
But the girl is already dying and said she isn't giving up her friends even if Ellie was gonna beat her...and Ellie beat her to death.
Like what do you get out of that? Nora is going to die regardless.
Nora's death is such a good example of what we are talking about in this thread and the fact that it made you check your sentiment proves it.
- Status