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Dogui

Member
Oct 28, 2017
8,786
Brazil
Lol maybe to take games to a higher standard. It still is a game but feels higher quality than any game I've ever played tbh and I've been gaming for years....

So, your premise is that games are a lesser media but this specific game is better because it approaches the "highest forms of art" instead of being a narrative shooter with way more money to waste on cutscene direction and overall production values?

Of course i'm being a tad bit hyperbolic here, but it's kinda what this take feels like to me.

Fortunately, videogames are varied enough in a way they can evolve on their own standard.

Not saying i'm against TloU2 or similar being praised for stuff they do great, but this opinion feels like you actually believe your favorite apple is objectively better than my favorite orange.
 

MrBS

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,222
Hard disagree on this one, adored the gameplay, story etc was fine for what it was and I'm also against team 'immersion'. A game is a game, the medium is not elevated when being described as a book or a movie. Also this game reaching these lofty ideals with its tropey story line, not on board with that either.
 
Nov 20, 2019
1,861
So, your premise is that games are a lesser media but this specific game is better because it approaches the "highest forms of art" instead of being a narrative shooter with way more money to waste on cutscene direction and overall production values?

Of course i'm being a tad bit hyperbolic here, but it's kinda what this take feels like to me.

Fortunately, videogames are varied enough in a way they can evolve on their own standard.

Not saying i'm against TloU2 or similar being praised for stuff they do great, but this opinion feels like you actually believe your favorite apple is objectively better than my favorite orange.
No, games aren't a lesser media, but this game showed what talent, 1.8 Tflops, high production value can give you. The game was so seamless and cohesive, With a great narrative. I had feelings for the characters etc. The unrivaled animation of the characters faces and motion matching technology with high res textures and shaders on every surface combined with sound design and top class voice acting. The game felt more quality and more like a movie that you could play. Not your typical video game with stiff animation (lol) and typical voice acting and "gamey" things. TLOUII's fine grain detail is what I want more of for this generation (PS5). From Dina squinting her eyes from Ellie's flashlight or Abby being scared of heights and showing it in her face or the breathing patterns as your character runs or getting into combat and your character acts accordingly as you would expect them too. The ND engine was great with UC4 and is on an extreme level with TLOU II. They squeezed all this in 1.8 tflops lol....
 
Sep 21, 2019
2,594
Best game ever made. Period. No contest. And I've played A LOT of games in my 36 years.

And my hype for this game was through the roof, which usually means I end up disappointed.

Oh, and I knew all the spoilers.

Didn't matter one bit.

Best gaming experience of my life and easily one of the top 5 media experiences ever for me...movies, TV shows, books....all included.

What an achievement this game is. What a beautiful, aching masterwork of an experience.
 

Y2Kev

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,837
I thought Ellie Day 2 once you are like hiding from dogs and stuff was really an incredible set of game mechanics interacting.
 

Hugare

Banned
Aug 31, 2018
1,853
Honestly, maybe I'm way too hyped for it right now, but I was thinking the same about Cyberpunk 2077 after watching the latest trailer

Like: "man, it looks like I'll be so immersed that I'll forget about quests and just move around this world"

RDR 2 was another game where immersion came in a whole other level compared to other games in the past

Didn't feel this way with TLOU 2 (despite loving it) because TLOU 2 is waaay too linear.

And that's fine. But I was constantly noticing the boundaries in the world that took me back to reality.
 

beau_beaumont

Member
Nov 12, 2017
1,344
I don't know why people are making fun of op. What they described could be considered pure escapism, where you're so engrossed in a piece of entertainment that the rest of the outside world fades away and the experience itself becomes the sole focus of the viewer/reader/player. I can't say I had a similar experience while playing this game or any game, but I have experienced it when writing or playing music.
 

NightShift

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,999
Australia
I have the completely opposite opinion. I think TLoU part 2 is the most "video game"-y video game Naughty Dog has made since Jak X. It's by far their best combat system because it's legitimately fun and the level design, enemy AI, and they way you interact with them was incredibly well designed. As opposed to Uncharted where the combat makes it look more exciting than it is to play.

Also the story structure and pacing feel like they benefit the gameplay more than the story. Like how to play as Abby for nearly half the game. I feel like that would have been more effective if you swapped back and forth between them but that would have been terrible from a gameplay perspective.
 
Nov 1, 2017
1,365
Jesus christ. The hyperbole that surrounds this game (sorry to remind you it is, in fact, a game) might be more obnoxious than Breath of the Wild. If someone really managed to lose the sensation in their hands that held the gamepad and managed to acquire a unique form of selective blindness that made them unable to see button prompts, or loading screens, or trophy notifications or <insert obvious game reference here> then maybe, just maybe i could understand how you "forgot" it was a game. Man, this must have then felt like the most poorly paced movie/novel/whatever in existence.

Before anyone tries to come for me as a hater i should point out that i think the first Last of Us game is right up there with Shadow of the Colossus and Journey as one of the most spectacular and fantastic videogames in existence so I'm not some sort of Naughty Dog hater but let's not disappear so far up our own arses that we start spouting this absolute pretentious bollocks, yeah?
 

Ra

Rap Genius
Moderator
Oct 27, 2017
12,201
Dark Space
TLOUII's fine grain detail is what I want more of for this generation (PS5).
Prepare to be disappointed. There's a reason we only get maybe 3 games per generation on this level. Not every studio is handed hundreds of millions and unlimited time and bodies to throw into the meat grinder of quadruple A production values.
 
Oct 25, 2017
7,647
I haven't played tlou 2 but I'm always interested when a game receives so much praise. I'm always willing to give things a shot

However

I REALLY haven't liked ANY ND games post jak 3


My experience ranges from being absolutely bored by them to "ugh, I have to play now, can you just skip to the next cutscene because I really don't enjoy actually playing this game"


DOES tlou transcend this? Has anyone felt the same way I did and has ended up enjoying tlou 2?


Edit: I also have never really liked any of these characters from their games too much (I found Ellie to be extremely annoying, as is Nathan drake) or just tolerable (like Joel) but if the gameplay has been extremely improved I'm definitely willing to give another ND game a shot
 

ClickyCal'

Member
Oct 25, 2017
59,491
I haven't played tlou 2 but I'm always interested when a game receives so much praise. I'm always willing to give things a shot

However

I REALLY haven't liked ANY ND games post jak 3


My experience ranges from being absolutely bored by them to "ugh, I have to play now, can you just skip to the next cutscene because I really don't enjoy actually playing this game"


DOES tlou transcend this? Has anyone felt the same way I did and has ended up enjoying tlou 2?
It's the same style as TLOU1, just refined in every way. Fluidity of movement, way better stealth mechanics, better gunplay and combat, etc. It depends on what that would mean for you.
 

leng jai

Member
Nov 2, 2017
15,117
Prepare to be disappointed. There's a reason we only get maybe 3 games per generation on this level. Not every studio is handed hundreds of millions and unlimited time and bodies to throw into the meat grinder of quadruple A production values.

It's quite obviously unsustainable for anyone that isn't Naughty Dog or Rockstar, and they only achieve it with crunch and endless resources. If that level of fidelity and detail is what every game had to strive for the industry would collapse .
 

Nazgûl

Banned
Dec 16, 2019
3,082
I haven't played tlou 2 but I'm always interested when a game receives so much praise. I'm always willing to give things a shot

However

I REALLY haven't liked ANY ND games post jak 3


My experience ranges from being absolutely bored by them to "ugh, I have to play now, can you just skip to the next cutscene because I really don't enjoy actually playing this game"


DOES tlou transcend this? Has anyone felt the same way I did and has ended up enjoying tlou 2?


Edit: I also have never really liked any of these characters from their games too much (I found Ellie to be extremely annoying, as is Nathan drake) or just tolerable (like Joel) but if the gameplay has been extremely improved I'm definitely willing to give another ND game a shot
You won't like it. Don't play it.
 

Ariesfirebomb

Member
Jul 3, 2018
541
Minneapolis
I agree 100% OP!

games like this, spiderman, and ghosts of Tsushima really do it for me in terms of story telling.

I fully understand why people don't like it and just want their games to be games, but the market is so overrun by that (to varying degrees) so these are such a nice escape.
 

Edgar

User requested ban
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
7,180
Best game ever made. Period. No contest. And I've played A LOT of games in my 36 years.

And my hype for this game was through the roof, which usually means I end up disappointed.

Oh, and I knew all the spoilers.

Didn't matter one bit.

Best gaming experience of my life and easily one of the top 5 media experiences ever for me...movies, TV shows, books....all included.

What an achievement this game is. What a beautiful, aching masterwork of an experience.
No contest, really? Have you played knack?
 

BashNasty

Member
Oct 30, 2017
1,895
My experience ranges from being absolutely bored by them to "ugh, I have to play now, can you just skip to the next cutscene because I really don't enjoy actually playing this game"


DOES tlou transcend this? Has anyone felt the same way I did and has ended up enjoying tlou 2?

In my opinion, no, TLOU2 does not transcend the poor gameplay that characterizes Naughty Dog's games for me. I played for about 8 hours, was generally bored, then dropped the game. I'm constantly befuddled by all the praise the gameplay gets here, I just don't feel or see it at all.
 

Piggus

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,692
Oregon
I have to wonder what difficulty people are playing at who don't like the gameplay. With the enemies set to highest difficulty, this game has some of the most incredible, believable AI in any game period. They're aggressive, they communicate and flank effectively, they spot you much more easily, and all of that makes for gameplay that is extremely dynamic and intense. I've never played a game that go my heart rate going like this game does.

And everything the OP said is correct. Games like this transcend other forms of media in a lot of ways not just because of the quality of the cutscenes, acting, and writing, or the fact that this is a pure technical marvel that the vast majority of studios can't touch, but because there's so much storytelling and character development during gameplay itself. The way this is executed is well above most other games.

Also, this game is polished to a mirror sheen. Playing AC: Valhalla has made me appreciate Sony games and ESPECIALLY ND because they realize that jank instantly takes you out of the experience. ACV fucking oozes of jank, which is ridiculous for a game from such a massive publisher.
 
Feb 24, 2018
5,224
This.
It's really true. It's a game and a great game, and more immersive as other types of media
This, being called a game isn't an insult or somehow makes something inferior, most mediums have advantages over others or help define them as unique, where it's Live action, painting, photography, Animation, video games, written, audio, music etc. Games advantage is that it's interactive and therefore can do things that the others can't and explore that through many different gameplay genres, I haven't played TLOU2 so not going to make a judgement call but given the praise some here have for it, I say it did it's job for them and fully maximized the use and tools to immerse them in it's world.

Plus for me, I hate snobbery in general and think genre/medium snobbery one of the most pathetic and often ends looking foolish and backfiring in the long run. Westerns during the 50s and 60s like True Grit, The Searchers, The Magnificent Seven etc were looked down upon as film "no real critic would praise seriously/say is award worthy" (sound familiar to superhero media now doesn't it?). with Spaghetti Westerns in particular not considered "real" art like The Good, the Bad and the Ugly... All of which looks kinda silly now in hindsight. Same thing with Fantasy and Sci-Fi as a whole, or entire forms or paintings or animation (remember according to "real" critics, no one would want to see a full length animated film like Snow White).

So many works throughout history have been the victims of snobbery, video games aren't the only ones and for me, f*** them. If they want to be snobs and look like fools, let them, I'll be happily watching The Shining while playing Castlevania Symphony of the Night while listening to Moby Dick on audiobook in peace.

Also TVtropes have several tropes dedicated to the folly of snobbery like this, the "It will never catch on" (say game critics, hows those predictions the Wii would kill Nintendo doing?), "And you thought it would fail" and "Vindicated by history".
 

FFNB

Associate Game Designer
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
6,089
Los Angeles, CA
The Last of Us Part II is unlike anything I've ever experienced before in all my 3+ decades of being a gamer. It challenged me emotionally in a way I never thought possible outside of either literature or long form television series.

It's a fantastic game. Not perfect, of course (what is?), but as I've said before, it's a masterclass of game design, and the way in which it approaches engaging the player beyond the usual (ie, tapping into our feelings beyond just excitement, or adrenaline, or a rush of serotonin). Not to mention that, for Naughty Dog, specifically, the latter half of the game is some of the best game design and level design they've done yet. I'm excited for whatever they have planned for the future.

I feel like, after TLOU2, they will need some recovery time (you just don't make a game this emotionally taxing and come away unscathed; if it was this draining for us, imagine how it must have been for the team that made it! lol), so I think their next game is going to be something tonally different, but still very much in their wheelhouse of what they're good at.

EDIT: Furthermore, I think TLOU2 works as well as it does precisely because it's a video game. There is a level of connection that we, the player make, being active participants in the forward momentum of the gameplay experience, that passive mediums simply can't provide. TLOU2 (and the first), hit as hard as they do because we are the ones pushing Joel and Ellie through the linear narrative being told, and the tense combat encounters they experience.

I think very few games marry their gameplay and narrative as strongly as TLOU2 does, but it's also a piece of interactive entertainment, and is stronger for it. It's why, for me, I can't just watch someone else play TLOU or TLOU2, and come away with it with the same feelings I had when I was playing them myself. However, after I've already beaten the games, it is very much fun to watch a Let's Play and see how other players react to the experience. It's mainly why I hold off on watching Let's Plays until I've played the game for myself.
 
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GhostTrick

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,305
My take on this: People should play more stuff and not what is the current hype train. Cause it definitely shows.
 

Shopolic

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
6,841
The worst thing about TLoU2 for me was its perfection! This game made it really difficult for me to play other games like before. :(
 
Oct 25, 2017
6,023
I have to wonder what difficulty people are playing at who don't like the gameplay. With the enemies set to highest difficulty, this game has some of the most incredible, believable AI in any game period. They're aggressive, they communicate and flank effectively, they spot you much more easily, and all of that makes for gameplay that is extremely dynamic and intense. I've never played a game that go my heart rate going like this game does.
I agree completely. I've been saying this since the original because it had the same thing where the game felt completely different on the harder difficulties compared to casual. Having options is good, but I really think ND need to prompt people to play these on the harder difficulties because that's where the gameplay truly shines.
 

Linus815

Member
Oct 29, 2017
19,720
I have to wonder what difficulty people are playing at who don't like the gameplay. With the enemies set to highest difficulty, this game has some of the most incredible, believable AI in any game period. They're aggressive, they communicate and flank effectively, they spot you much more easily, and all of that makes for gameplay that is extremely dynamic and intense. I've never played a game that go my heart rate going like this game does.

And everything the OP said is correct. Games like this transcend other forms of media in a lot of ways not just because of the quality of the cutscenes, acting, and writing, or the fact that this is a pure technical marvel that the vast majority of studios can't touch, but because there's so much storytelling and character development during gameplay itself. The way this is executed is well above most other games.

Also, this game is polished to a mirror sheen. Playing AC: Valhalla has made me appreciate Sony games and ESPECIALLY ND because they realize that jank instantly takes you out of the experience. ACV fucking oozes of jank, which is ridiculous for a game from such a massive publisher.

gameplay doesnt just mean combat..

For example, examine the loot system. When you really think about it, it's entirely possible that overall you spend more time opening drawers and picking up duct tape than actually shooting people or taking out clickers. Looting is such a large part of the game. And it's incredibly disappointing how surface level it is. There is no real mechanics to it outside of picking shit up. There is no inventory management, you can't sacrafice item X to carry more of Y or experiment with crafting. scavenging in TLOU 1 was fine, especially for the lenght of that game. But TLOU 2 is much longer, and the scavenging has the exact same depth, which is, very little.

outside of looting, there's general traversal, and honestly, it really got on my nerves at times. The amount of times you hear the "lets find a way around" in this game is actually insane. I don't have a problem with obstacles, my problem is that the game doesn't really offer any sort of creative ways of tackling them. There is almost always a singular path that you can take, and nothing else. I really liked some of the puzzles involving the rope. They were super simplistic, but, the rope physics were impressive which made it feel like a "real" puzzle rather than some videogamey, contrived shit. So that's great but how much more great it'd have been if the game is a bit more liberal with being able to use tools like ropes or ladders and allow multiple ways of tackling obstacles.
 

Party

â–˛ Legend â–˛
The Fallen
Dec 3, 2018
1,422
I disagree. I think some of the strongest narrative moments exist because it's a game. Because of the literal things the game has you do on the controller during key narrative beats. For all the people saying, "wow you should go seek out other media", other media just doesn't have me interact with it the way this game (and many of my favorite narrative games) did.
 

Danielsan

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,632
The Netherlands
During the story moments for sure. I mentioned this to a friend recently. The Last of Us 2 is the only game where the character models, animations and acting are so good that you forget that you're watching game and it feels like you're watching actual people.
 

Thanquol

Alt Account
Banned
Apr 4, 2020
453
Not for me, did not enjoy that game at all.

I experienced that feeling with rdr2 though
 

astroturfing

Member
Nov 1, 2017
6,450
Suomi Finland
i thought it was really great precisely because it was memorable and amazing as a videogame, that is fun to play. as a movie or book it wouldnt have been all that special, tbh.
 

Rocket Man

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,509
It's one of the best games ever. I honestly just wanted to keep playing, the gameplay is unbelievably good, along with the narrative. Just an extremely ambitious game, and something you can only really experience playing.
 

RivalGT

Member
Dec 13, 2017
6,393
The worst part is when the game ends, and you just want more. I wish there was more, like story DLC or something.
 

Issen

Member
Nov 12, 2017
6,816
I know the OP means to praise the game, but I can't help but feel uncomfortable at the notion that "videogame-ness" is something to aspire to escape. That a game should try to be more like a movie, a TV series or a novel, and that only by being like those things can it engage players emotionally.
 

Detective

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,852
I actually didn't like it. Loved the first one way more. Gameplay, music and graphics were great.
Story, one bad soap opera that I couldn't wait to finish. Didn't like it at all.
 

nelsonroyale

Member
Oct 28, 2017
12,126
It is amazingly well crafted...the transitions between gameplay and cutscenes are particularly awesome. But it feels to me like a masterfully presented game, which is as it should. By contrast, RDR2 felt like an interactive TV series because of the restricted nature of mission design.

I am expecting Cyberpunk 2077 to mediate between the two.
 

tzare

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,145
Catalunya
it is almost the perfect blend, It is a videogame, because it plays great, can't think of a third person action game that plays this good, it has almost everything, and at the same time you are like in a movie somehow, it is a bit like Neverending Story. A masterpiece.
 

Video Kojima

Banned
Apr 5, 2020
2,541
I was hoping that after Horizon and Death stranding, two playstation exclusives, this would extend to other exclusives.
Don't mind waiting a year.
 

tastybread

Member
Oct 27, 2017
320
it is almost the perfect blend, It is a videogame, because it plays great, can't think of a third person action game that plays this good, it has almost everything, and at the same time you are like in a movie somehow, it is a bit like Neverending Story. A masterpiece.
It's funny because me and my partner actually treated playing this like watching a TV series - dark outside? check. Dog sleeping? Check. Playing through this game with my PC audio setup (rip optical that allowed sound to come through the speakers AND the TV simultaneously) was just incredible. Moments of insane tension action, followed by insane cinematics. It was a joy to play, and I'm sure we'll make this a little tradition for the next game :)
 

Matty H

Member
Oct 31, 2017
1,107
After quite a few years of not playing many games, the first TLOU did this for me. I would go stretches just thinking about the characters as if they were people and I was surviving with them. Sometimes I felt like I was Joel and sometimes I felt like some ghost that followed them around.

The best movies and TV shows can do this and TLOU Part 2 did this in brief moments. Mostly though, TLOU Part 2 took me on a rollercoaster of emotions and at times I didn't want to do what the protagonist wanted to do. This felt like something only a game could do and for that reason, I believe it is one of the games of the generation.