Naughty Dog Deserves To Spring Leaks Forever (The Jimquisition)

Jimrpg · May 5, 2020

The responses here are a lot different on this page than on the first page. Did the people on the first page actually watch the entire segment?

Jim goes on to say they're two different issues - one is the hacker issue, the other is the fact ND has had poor workplace conditions in the past and employees have spoken out in the past because of it. He goes on to say just because its been revealed as a hacker issue doesn't mean everybody can just get back to ignoring the workplace conditions because it wasn't a disgruntled naughty dog employee! That's what he's saying!

He also says in no way should anybody be hacking and stealing stuff and the law should come down on the perpetrators.

The title is a click baity because it could be miscontrued as two different takes. One take is that ND deserves to be hacked. Which is not what he's saying but he's cleverly implying it in his title. And the second take is that ND as a result of poor working conditions and treatment of its staff deserves to have stuff leaked.

Seems like everyone just assumed the first take on the first page of this thread. Now I don't know how you equate poor treatment with having stuff leaked, but the general gist of the video is Jim saying these AAA companies are treating the staff poorly. Is that really a bad take?

TheGhost · May 5, 2020

Yeah that's how I took it, just because the leak wasn't an employee, doesn't mean the work place is suddenly crunch free

BoxManLocke · May 5, 2020

TheGhost said:
Yeah that's how I took it, just because the leak wasn't an employee, doesn't mean the work place is suddenly crunch free

The thing is, nobody assumed as much.

However, Jim clumsily trying to tie the leak story to crunch severely undermines whatever he's trying to say about ND's work culture, and that's a shame.

TheGhost · May 5, 2020

BoxManLocke said:
The thing is, nobody assumed as much.

However, Jim clumsily trying to tie the leak story to crunch severely undermines whatever he's trying to say

I don't think this leak happens with out crunch.

DealWithIt · May 5, 2020

Lot of low effort troll posts in this thread.

OT: Jim is conflating issues in a way that undercuts his point. I'm not a huge fan in general but this is simply a bad framing.

Video Kojima · May 5, 2020

He's 100% right

BoxManLocke · May 5, 2020

TheGhost said:
I don't think this leak happens with out crunch.

Not sure what you're trying to imply here if it isn't the same conspiracy theories others have shared.

TheGhost · May 5, 2020

BoxManLocke said:
Not sure what you're trying to imply here if it isn't the same conspiracy theories others have shared.

What I'm saying is if all this negative attention about crunch at naughty dog wasn't a thing, would a hacker have done what they did? Hackers always think they are doing destructive nonsense for a noble cause.

Patapuf · May 5, 2020

TheGhost said:
What I'm saying is if all this negative attention about crunch at naughty dog wasn't a thing, would a hacker have done what they did? Hackers always think they are doing destructive nonsense for a noble cause.

Combating crunch isn't exactly a hacker credo historically. If they do have a cause it's usually about internet freedom, copyright etc.

Hacking into a company and leacking the game/story is really not some unprecedented event.

BoxManLocke · May 5, 2020

TheGhost said:
What I'm saying is if all this negative attention about crunch at naughty dog wasn't a thing, would a hacker have done what they did? Hackers always think they are doing destructive nonsense for a noble cause.

I think getting their hands on one of the biggest games of the gen would be reason enough for some people to leak it, considering they're, you know, assholes.

And there wasn't even any sort of official statement or reason given for the leak.

Dirtyshubb · May 5, 2020

TheGhost said:
What I'm saying is if all this negative attention about crunch at naughty dog wasn't a thing, would a hacker have done what they did? Hackers always think they are doing destructive nonsense for a noble cause.

But from what we know, the hackers worked out there was an exploit and worked on using that to get access to their files. This only leaked because they blabbed to another person who leaked it all.

From my little understanding of hackers, they just target big companies to see if they can break in. There isn't some noble reason for the vast majority of them and they just simply see it as a challenge.

That's why people bringing up crunch in regards to this are getting push back, because they are two totally separate issues.

Corralx · May 5, 2020

BoxManLocke said:
The thing is, nobody assumed as much.

In my (very small and biased) experience, plenty of people did.
When Sony released the statement that the leak wasn't coming from an employee, I've read a lot of fan on twitter/reddit jumping to the conclusion that crunch at naughty Dog isn't terrible because it didn't cause the leak, which is a very flawed reasoning.

All in all, the points Jim makes in the video are not wrong, albeit with his usual edgy tone:
- crunch is still devastating at Naughty Dog and we shouldn't forget about it just because it's not the cause of the leak
- Naughty Dog as a company and the actual human being working for it are separate entities, and while leaks are terrible for developers, he cannot really feel bad for the company itself and its management

I guess whether you agree with his point or not depends on whether you can separate the company from the ppl working for it.
It's not too different from the usual moral question of "when someone is shown to be an asshole/abuser/whatever is it still fine to like his/her job/art?".
Some people can separate the person from his/her products and say yes, others cannot and say no. Neither are objectively wrong imo.

Deleted member 2254 · May 5, 2020

BoxManLocke said:
The thing is, nobody assumed as much.

However, Jim clumsily trying to tie the leak story to crunch severely undermines whatever he's trying to say about ND's work culture, and that's a shame.

People are talking about Naughty Dog right now because of the leaks. It's not unfair to look at the leaks and say "okay, the leaks don't have to do with the crunch, but let's talk about the crunch even if it's not in correlation because it's important to discuss it". Jim Sterling's style is what it is, not gonna defend it because I've never been a fan of it, but he's certainly got a point.

TheGhost · May 5, 2020

Dirtyshubb said:
That's why people bringing up crunch in regards to this are getting push back, because they are two totally separate issues.

The video is discussing crunch, so crunch will be discussed. Knowing the content of the spoilers, the crunch talks makes that much more sense now than it did months ago when Jason's article came out.

Dirtyshubb · May 5, 2020

TheGhost said:
The video is discussing crunch, so crunch will be discussed. Knowing the content of the spoilers, the crunch talks makes that much more sense now than it did months ago when Jason's article came out.

The issue that many people have here though is not that Jim is bringing up crunch, because I'm sure we would all agree that it's a terrible practice that needs to stop, but that the framing of the video (especially through its title) is that while it's bad for employees that this leaked, ultimately its good because it hurts the company and might potentially lead to further scrutiny of their crunch culture.

The problem with this is that those employees are now not only being hurt by crunch but also from external factors with the leaks. I'm sure this thread would be a 10th of its size if the argument was just that we should not forget the other company news and it had a better suited title such as "ND employees hurt by leaks and by ND".

Valcrist · May 5, 2020

Video Kojima said:
He's 100% right

Yes, ND devs hard work deserves to get ruined because their bosses are bad. Got it.

I've seen enough stories about morale getting destroyed by leaks like this. The devs don't deserve that.

Jade1962 · May 5, 2020

TheGhost said:
The video is discussing crunch, so crunch will be discussed. Knowing the content of the spoilers, the crunch talks makes that much more sense now than it did months ago when Jason's article came out.

You are still pushing the crunch caused the leaks theory. ND got hacked back in January. Jason's article was in March the leaks didn't happen till late April. They have nothing to do with each other. If you don't like crunch at ND make a thread about it but to keep claiming the crunch and the leaks are connected is bogus.

TheGhost · May 5, 2020

Dirtyshubb said:
The issue that many people have here though is not that Jim is bringing up crunch, because I'm sure we would all agree that it's a terrible practice that needs to stop, but that the framing of the video (especially through its title) is that while it's bad for employees that this leaked, ultimately its good because it hurts the company and might potentially lead to further scrutiny of their crunch culture.

The problem with this is that those employees are now not only being hurt by crunch but also from external factors with the leaks. I'm sure this thread would be a 10th of its size if the argument was just that we should not forget the other company news and it had a better suited title such as "ND employees hurt by leaks and by ND".

The upper management has to be hurt for any type of change to happen. They have to be criticized to the point where Sony is pressured has to step in and tell them to treat their employees with respect.

Remember when Microsoft purchased studios and everyone was like "well that sucks i wish they were with Sony because they give developers all the time in the world"

repeated over and over again, well if that's truly the Sony way, why is crunch needed at Naughty Dog?

upper management at ND deserves all the shit they get and the staff there needs to be treated properly. Instead of being treated like employees not at a pristine studio.

Dirtyshubb · May 5, 2020

TheGhost said:
The upper management has to be hurt for any type of change to happen. They have to be criticized to the point where Sony is pressured has to step in and tell them to treat their employees with respect.

Remember when Microsoft purchased studios and everyone was like "well that sucks i wish they were with Sony because they give developers all the time in the world"

repeated over and over again, well if that's truly the Sony way, why is crunch needed at Naughty Dog?

upper management at ND deserves all the shit they get and the staff there needs to be treated properly. Instead of being treated like employees not at a pristine studio.

And I agree with you but it happening in a way that causes collateral damage to the employees isn't something that should be celebrated.

We have ND devs themselves talking about how hurt they are because of the leaks. We also had people defending the leaks themselves, before the truth came out, saying that it wouldn't matter because TLOU2 would still sell massively.

So what we seem to have here is a situation where the only people actually hurt is the employees. So Jim deciding to title his video the way he did and for attempting to use this as some sort of silver lining, completely misses the reality of the situation.

Again, I'm more than happy for him and others to talk about toxic work cultures, but anyone attempting to frame this situation as a good thing because is simply wrong.

FrostweaveBandage · May 5, 2020

How does crunch work in the movie industry? Aren't release dates decided well after a movie wraps?

Kill3r7 · May 5, 2020

FrostweaveBandage said:
How does crunch work in the movie industry? Aren't release dates decided well after a movie wraps?

Unions.

Randomly Generated · May 5, 2020

Kill3r7 said:
Unions.

I'm not sure how that answers the question.

If you're saying unions have stopped crunch in the movie industry, that's incredibly naive.

TheGhost · May 5, 2020

Dirtyshubb said:
And I agree with you but it happening in a way that causes collateral damage to the employees isn't something that should be celebrated.

We have ND devs themselves talking about how hurt they are because of the leaks. We also had people defending the leaks themselves, before the truth came out, saying that it wouldn't matter because TLOU2 would still sell massively.

So what we seem to have here is a situation where the only people actually hurt is the employees. So Jim deciding to title his video the way he did and for attempting to use this as some sort of silver lining, completely misses the reality of the situation.

Again, I'm more than happy for him and others to talk about toxic work cultures, but anyone attempting to frame this situation as a good thing because is simply wrong.

Yeah but you can't expect the conversation globally will be contained to the way you want it to be discussed. So why bother fighting it? Cats out of the bag and it isn't going back in because we decide to discuss it a certain way here.

Minthara · May 5, 2020

FrostweaveBandage said:
How does crunch work in the movie industry? Aren't release dates decided well after a movie wraps?

Nope, the movie industry crunches just as hard as the video game industry in a lot of ways. So does the animation and TV industries as well. Many technology companies do too, especially if they release yearly products or yearly versions of their products. In film, VFX houses and sometimes editors feel the crunch the most.

Crunch can be a factor of poor project management at the start of a project snowballing into chaos in the end, it can be projects with unrealistic deadlines or it can be a project that has encountered difficulty for whatever reason and is behind schedule.

There is a school of thought that says that crunch is inevitable, but I think there is a stark contrast between badly managed crunch and we'll managed crunch. Having crunched a crazy amount for a video game in the past (72 hour work weeks and my name was almost not even in the credits) I think project managers in all industries need to be better equipped at managing their employees.

FlashFlooder · May 5, 2020

I don't work in the movies or games industries... but I can tell you that "crunch", in one way or another, has occurred at every job and in every industry I've ever been a part of. Sometimes you put in extended long hours (often uncompensated) to make a deadline. It's just a part of life, in my experience, and I'll never understand why everyone here acts like it's only a reality in the games biz.

BKLorenzo · May 5, 2020

The hate around Naughty Dogs is really a thing.

Kill3r7 · May 5, 2020

Randomly Generated said:
I'm not sure how that answers the question.

If you're saying unions have stopped crunch in the movie industry, that's incredibly naive.

I don't think you can eliminate crunch all together but you can limit its duration and breadth. Something unions have unquestionably done in the film industry.

IMCaprica · May 5, 2020

Watching a guy with clickbait video titles, who puts out half baked takes, have a shitty take about an actual journalist whose work is the only reason this video even exists, is fucking sad. And he knows it's bullshit. He doesn't actually believe Jason was "shifting" the narrative. This is Jim bolstering his Limbaugh-like grift by portraying himself as the only one willing to talk about the "real" issues.

TheGhost said:
Yeah but you can't expect the conversation globally will be contained to the way you want it to be discussed. So why bother fighting it? Cats out of the bag and it isn't going back in because we decide to discuss it a certain way here.

The irony of this is incredible, given Jim's boohooing in the video about how a completely different topic (the leaks coming from an outside source) was not only taking away from the crunch talk, but also somehow justifying the crunch. The whole premise of the video is Jim being "outraged" the topic of leaks isn't about the thing he wants it to be about (crunch).

dep9000 · May 5, 2020

FlashFlooder said:
I don't work in the movies or games industries... but I can tell you that "crunch", in one way or another, has occurred at every job and in every industry I've ever been a part of. Sometimes you put in extended long hours (often uncompensated) to make a deadline. It's just a part of life, in my experience, and I'll never understand why everyone here acts like it's only a reality in the games biz.

Nope

TheThreadsThatBindUs · May 5, 2020

I usually like Jim but he's really jumped the shark with this take.

The very folks forced to endure the negative effects of crunch culture are the very same most hurt by the object of all their hard work, blood sweat and tears being leaked and disseminated to the public for free.

Yeah, no Jim. This is not the answer to the problem of crunch culture. Like, at all.

Dirtyshubb · May 5, 2020

TheGhost said:
Yeah but you can't expect the conversation globally will be contained to the way you want it to be discussed. So why bother fighting it? Cats out of the bag and it isn't going back in because we decide to discuss it a certain way here.

So your point is "oh well, people are conflating the reasons and tieing them together already so why stop it?".

If we actually want change to happen, then doing shitty arguments and justifications for things that are not only not connected but also counterproductive to the end goal of making things better for employees is entirely the wrong way to go about it.

Ironically, attempting to connect the two issues is more likely to make people defend ND instead of focus on the actual bad things they do.

Landford · May 5, 2020

Crunch is not "working until late", guys. Its sustained, months on end, soul crushing hours. Dont underplay what happens in the game industry.

Dragoon · May 5, 2020

TheGhost said:
What I'm saying is if all this negative attention about crunch at naughty dog wasn't a thing, would a hacker have done what they did? Hackers always think they are doing destructive nonsense for a noble cause.

Era connections strike again, this time we have insiders who know people who leak video game content.

kennyamr · May 5, 2020

agree to disagree

Eeyore · May 5, 2020

FlashFlooder said:
I don't work in the movies or games industries... but I can tell you that "crunch", in one way or another, has occurred at every job and in every industry I've ever been a part of. Sometimes you put in extended long hours (often uncompensated) to make a deadline. It's just a part of life, in my experience, and I'll never understand why everyone here acts like it's only a reality in the games biz.

What is with these disingenuous takes? We're on a video game forum of course we're going to talk about video game crunch. Yes I've worked 80 to 100 hours as a software developer for weeks at a time. It was awful and it's why I empathize with the people that do this so we can play the games we love. No one is saying it's only present in video games.

TheGhost said:
What I'm saying is if all this negative attention about crunch at naughty dog wasn't a thing, would a hacker have done what they did? Hackers always think they are doing destructive nonsense for a noble cause.

No.

FlashFlooder · May 5, 2020

dep9000 said:
Nope

lol, how insightful!

Azerth · May 5, 2020

Hopefully one day nd and everyone else will stop crunching but when the head of the studio embraces it and the company the owns them doesnt care to put an end to it. Then they will never change

Bennibop · May 5, 2020

Thanatos said:
Nope, the movie industry crunches just as hard as the video game industry in a lot of ways. So does the animation and TV industries as well. Many technology companies do too, especially if they release yearly products or yearly versions of their products. In film, VFX houses and sometimes editors feel the crunch the most.

Crunch can be a factor of poor project management at the start of a project snowballing into chaos in the end, it can be projects with unrealistic deadlines or it can be a project that has encountered difficulty for whatever reason and is behind schedule.

There is a school of thought that says that crunch is inevitable, but I think there is a stark contrast between badly managed crunch and we'll managed crunch. Having crunched a crazy amount for a video game in the past (72 hour work weeks and my name was almost not even in the credits) I think project managers in all industries need to be better equipped at managing their employees.

Yep my current company crunches. I work in IT for the Oil and Gas industry, my previous jobs in automotive a 65 plus hr weeks was the norm. It is not just consigned to the entertainment industry. The sad thing regardless of crunch the employees at ND would really care about the product / game, this would hurt them more than the management structure.

FlashFlooder · May 5, 2020

Eeyore said:
What is with these disingenuous takes? We're on a video game forum of course we're going to talk about video game crunch. Yes I've worked 80 to 100 hours as a software developer for weeks at a time. It was awful and it's why I empathize with the people that do this so we can play the games we love. No one is saying it's only present in video games.

Nothing at all disingenuous about my take, I assure you. It is constantly framed as a problem specific to this industry, when in reality it's how most of the world operates.

Village · May 5, 2020

IMCaprica said:
Watching a guy with clickbait video titles, who puts out half baked takes, have a shitty take about an actual journalist whose work is the only reason this video even exists, is fucking sad. And he knows it's bullshit. He doesn't actually believe Jason was "shifting" the narrative. This is Jim bolstering his Limbaugh-like grift by portraying himself as the only one willing to talk about the "real" issues.

this is uh, certainly a take

FlashFlooder said:
I don't work in the movies or games industries... but I can tell you that "crunch", in one way or another, has occurred at every job and in every industry I've ever been a part of. Sometimes you put in extended long hours (often uncompensated) to make a deadline. It's just a part of life, in my experience, and I'll never understand why everyone here acts like it's only a reality in the games biz.

No one is saying that. We are talking about game crunch because it is a game form

this sort of thing is just bad in general

iamandy · May 5, 2020

Terrible take. Jim keep pushing the outrage culture. Glad I blocked him ages ago.

Maeros · May 5, 2020

CormoranStrike said:
He makes a distinction between the developers obliged to crunch on the game and the poor management of ND that causes crunch.

That is a dumb argument and something what would have been said in a childrens classroom. So the devs dont deserve their game leaked but the company does? Doesnt make sense since the devs will be impaced. I dont follow.
Poor devs.

lodric · May 5, 2020

Maeros said:
That is a dumb argument and something what would have been said in a childrens classroom. So the devs dont deserve their game leaked but the company does? Doesnt make sense since the devs will be impaced. I dont follow.
Poor devs.

There's no proof that leaks will actually lead to lower sales so regardless of whether the management and devs can be separated in your mind they will probably be largely unnafected by this.

Eeyore · May 5, 2020

FlashFlooder said:
Nothing at all disingenuous about my take, I assure you. It is constantly framed as a problem specific to this industry, when in reality it's how most of the world operates.

What is the point of this? Say you're right, what does this have to do with what is being talked about in this thread?

Hail to Starscream · May 5, 2020

ND tells their employees right from get go in the job interview what the company expects from them regarding working hours etc. So maybe I'm missing the bigger picture here but If you are qualified enough to get a job at ND you can get a job pretty much anywhere in the industry, right? ND standards are pretty high as far as I know. So maybe don't get a job at ND if you don't want to crunch into oblivion?

This is not saying that crunch culture and the situation around it is okay, but you do kinda know what you're in for when starting at ND.

H.Cornerstone · May 5, 2020

I see many of you didn't understand or watch the video.

He says a million times that the devs don't deserve to have their hardwork ruined by leaks.

The point he is trying to make is that the prevailing theory for a while was this was a disgruntled dev who leaked it because of poor working conditions. And many people believed this theory because of reporting of how bad ND working conditions are. And any story that highlights this is good because it puts it under a microscope and hopefully will force change, although in this situation it sucks because a lot of devs hard work was leaked early.

it.ends said:
ND tells their employees right from get go in the job interview what the company expects from them regarding working hours etc. So maybe I'm missing the bigger picture here but If you are qualified enough to get a job at ND you can get a job pretty much anywhere in the industry, right? ND standards are pretty high as far as I know. So maybe don't get a job at ND if you don't want to crunch into oblivion?

This is not saying that crunch culture and the situation around it is okay, but you do kinda know what you're in for when starting at ND.

Not sure how accurate it is, but that one former ND employee who went on a twitter rant said it's the opposite. Basically one of the reasons ND has to crunch is they can't keep experienced devs around so they are constantly hiring newer people, and basically tackle the problems with man-hours and money.

If they had better working conditions/production schedules they could keep more experienced/better people around and then not need as much crunch.

Also, Insomniac is famous for not having that much crunch, and nothing ND has done is that much better than Spider-Man IMO.

udivision · May 5, 2020

it.ends said:
ND tells their employees right from get go in the job interview what the company expects from them regarding working hours etc. So maybe I'm missing the bigger picture here but If you are qualified enough to get a job at ND you can get a job pretty much anywhere in the industry, right? ND standards are pretty high as far as I know. So maybe don't get a job at ND if you don't want to crunch into oblivion?

This is not saying that crunch culture and the situation around it is okay, but you do kinda know what you're in for when starting at ND.

At the very least, they should be a lot more familiar with crunch in the industry and ND than we could be on the outside, so they should be equipped to make decisions about it.

But was it a former employee who downplayed the ND worker's talent since they churn senior staff and brute force things with numbers?

Alek · May 5, 2020

PeakPointMatrix said:
Q: Are they a studio with a deadline?
A: Yes.

Then they have crunch.

The length or extent of crunch is what varies.

I've worked with studios that don't crunch at all, and they had deadlines. Usually the studios had more independence and more mature staff with kids and families and outright refused to crunch.

Quade · May 5, 2020

Video Kojima said:
He's 100% right

He's at least 80% wrong.

GattsuSama · May 5, 2020

Going through and seeing some of the opinions I am a bit shocked but not surprised. Did not read the whole thread but enough to form another opinion.

I get that crunch is a bad thing but leaking the works of those that already crunched is even worse and more disrespectful.

I am seeing a lot of opinions from people that do not have an experience working with software and it shows. I know this is a discussion we should have and something that should be fixed but ruining or diminishing others work to get your point across in selfish. Let THEM decide how to fight back.

I am also curious, for those who have worked in studios with no crunch, what type of game was being completed? AAA/indie?

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