Naughty Dog crunch culture examined

[Blanquito]

Yeah, crunch is nasty. I watched the Grounded documentary recently and it was clear that crunch was just accepted there.

If you don't think it has an effect on people's lives, check out the Raising Kratos documentary and watch Shannon's reaction to this question, and her response.

https://youtu.be/lJZWKBDXXFY?t=5207

She's the one on the right.

(timestamp to 1:26:49 if the link doesn't take you there)

 

[mael]

The reason I assume people might justify crunch culture is because the news stories of crunch come from mainly critically acclaimed studios, and not poor-to-mediocre rated games.

"At least the game came out great, worth it"
"You can't get these great games made without crunch"

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It's kind of baffling and really not new.
Again the development of Seiken Densetsu 2 started as what Chrono Trigger was supposed to be and was gonna harness the Nintendo Playstation Disc addon.
They had to cut so much from the project when Sony and Nintendo broke up and EVEN THEN they still managed to pull a lot of the stuffs they planned (in-out multiplayer, action focused rpg....)
but the project was so excruciating the main programmer, responsible for Final Fantasy games as well, decided to retire off the royalties of the game.
You had a downright genius guy working in the industry just retire for a good life because that shit wasn't for him....in 1993.

There's so many horror stories out there and the marketing spin them as "see the extent we go for you guys!"
And worse of all it creates this atmosphere where a bad game is just bad because the workers weren't good enough and didn't want it enough.
Fuck that shit.

 

[Theiea]

Fuck that 24hr bullshit. Management should be fired over letting/forcing people to do that.

 

[John Frost]

Both are bad.

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Oh ok I wasn't sure.

 

[Captain Tuttle]

I can't think of a single job that's its not at least somewhat of a norm.

I was a cook, I did it constantly and then in music production, maybe a bit less consistency, but sometimes things need to be done at odder hours there.

People always go full boner about unions here yet two of my closest friends are in unions, one a plumber, the other in steel.. when overtime comes up they're still pressured to pick it up. The newer they are, the more they know they'll be the first pulled when projects slow.

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I'm a manager at a Union site (not technology) and there's a clause in the contract that says that Management can make overtime mandatory if needed. And we do. During the season (March-December) hours are 11 or 12 hours a day depending on your job. Saturdays are voluntary and we always get enough people but if we had to we'd make that mandatory as well.

Employees are paid overtime for anything past 10 hours/day. Saturdays are always overtime, Sundays are double time and Holidays are triple time (it's happened but it's rare)

Unions aren't some magical cure all for workplace issues. If there's work to be done the company is going to get it done. Workers will be paid but they're going to put in the hours

That said, 24 hour shifts are insane, sleeping at work is stupid and results in diminishing returns. In my business it's dangerous.

 

[Bundy]

You're a shoe salesman

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[DaveB]

Being a software engineer myself, I can say there is a point of diminishing returns when you grind on something for too long. You need to step away, get some rest and reset. Anyone who says otherwise is just a masochist.

And I'd politely tell my peers to fuck off if they even tried to pressure me into overworking, especially if I was getting my stuff done and doing it well.

 

[Deleted member 5028]

This struck home with me.

As a young QA tester working on the PSX port of Need For Speed 3D0, I fell asleep driving home after pulling a 20 hour shift. Woke up just in time to pull myself away from the concrete median, the last possible second. Ever since then, I've done my best to ensure crunch on my teams has been mitigated as well as possible - and have sent more employees home to rest than I can count. We make games, but it's never worth our lives.

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Holy. Shit.

I'm glad that story ended as a cautionary tale.

 

[elenarie]

This struck home with me.

As a young QA tester working on the PSX port of Need For Speed 3D0, I fell asleep driving home after pulling a 20 hour shift. Woke up just in time to pull myself away from the concrete median, the last possible second. Ever since then, I've done my best to ensure crunch on my teams has been mitigated as well as possible - and have sent more employees home to rest than I can count. We make games, but it's never worth our lives.

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Nice. Many people forget that they need to rest.

 

[Bugalugs214]

Not surprising, hopefully there's more union movement in the near future to lessen some of this.

 

[Tatsu91]

I have zero issue with crunch as long as it's two things. Optional and paid.

I used to love the crunch periods in my work because I would come out the other end loaded. It was always quite a nice team atmosphere as well.

That 24 hour shift should not happen though.

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I think that is the best option for the reason some people will dedicate more than they need to for projects and their are others who do need breaks and something else to do besides work without suffering. Crunch is fine but it should always be optional and not in the sense you will be guilted if you do not

 

[delete]

Yeah, crunch is nasty. I watched the Grounded documentary recently and it was clear that crunch was just accepted there.

If you don't think it has an effect on people's lives, check out the Raising Kratos documentary and watch Shannon's reaction to this question, and her response.

https://youtu.be/lJZWKBDXXFY?t=5207

She's the one on the right.

(timestamp to 1:26:49 if the link doesn't take you there)

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Wow that is kind of harrowing to watch. In my previous role as a web developer i have worked 24 hours shifts on top of poor work culture, I can tell you it took a significant mental health toll on employees and myself.

 

[Fuchsia]

Do films have crunch? Trying to think of any other (collaborative) creative endeavour that has crunch built in. I know it can happen in any pursuit, but this feels systematic.

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Absolutely yes. Post production audio engineering has nasty crunch to get a project done. I've heard horror stories from VFX as well. You have to do whatever is necessary to get a project done on time or else.

 

[NesFe00]

Man, I think I'd quit in day or at least start looking for another job as soon as possible. How can upper management think that working a 24 hours or even 12/14 hours is fucking ok?

In my previous job, I got this software programming project to work on alone during my first week of work. Keep in mind I still didn't have a full picture of the frameworks we were using. Literally, the next day, the manager comes up to me and asks me if its done. I was in shock. It was something that needed months. I thought he was joking, but he was serious. The next line that came out of his mouth was: you should stay a couple of hours after work every day and come over for a couple of hours in the weekend until its done (unpaid lol). I immediately told him no, I'm not doing that so he threatened firing me and informing upper management. I told him to go ahead. The next day, I got called into the CEO office and got asked about the commotion the day earlier (He wasn't informed by the manager but by someone else that there was an argument with the new employee). I explained the situation to him and apparently, the software was given to them 6 months ago and they couldn't finish it so they threw it on the new employee to start from scratch. The CEO didn't know this so he called the manager and humiliated him over the phone.

I was lucky, the CEO wasn't a piece of shit but imagine working for such a shitty manager only entire management have this mentality.

 

[waterdrinkinggamer]

24 hours? seriously. what a bunch of BS! Someone gets fired and then they got out of their way to slander a company just because they couldn't keep up..

Casualties are needed to achieve greatness

 

[Deleted member 11976]

This struck home with me.

As a young QA tester working on the PSX port of Need For Speed 3D0, I fell asleep driving home after pulling a 20 hour shift. Woke up just in time to pull myself away from the concrete median, the last possible second. Ever since then, I've done my best to ensure crunch on my teams has been mitigated as well as possible - and have sent more employees home to rest than I can count. We make games, but it's never worth our lives.

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After you've been in this industry long enough, you really appreciate the senior staff who send you home or strongly recommend you to take a short vacation after a intense milestone.

 

[Imitation Of Life]

Don't get a PS5.

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I'm sure that is all you think about.

If I had to work more than 10 hours per day multiple times I would quit my job asap.

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No you would not if you needed the money. Any that works at Naughty Dog probably has no problem finding another job though.

24 hours? seriously. what a bunch of BS! Someone gets fired and then they got out of their way to slander a company just because they couldn't keep up..

Casualties are needed to achieve greatness

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You serious?

 

[chrisypoo]

24 hours? seriously. what a bunch of BS! Someone gets fired and then they got out of their way to slander a company just because they couldn't keep up..

Casualties are needed to achieve greatness

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This is gross, absolutely disgusting stuff.

 

[The Living Tribunal]

24 hours? seriously. what a bunch of BS! Someone gets fired and then they got out of their way to slander a company just because they couldn't keep up..

Casualties are needed to achieve greatness

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[Firefly]

24 hours? seriously. what a bunch of BS! Someone gets fired and then they got out of their way to slander a company just because they couldn't keep up..

Casualties are needed to achieve greatness

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What the hell is this? How do you know if and why someone was fired?

 

[Sulik2]

The worst week of my life was 145 hours in 8 days after an alleged major hack and we had to rebuild a company's IT from scratch because of insurance demands. The two hour drive home the next day after I finished I almost fell asleep at the wheel multiple times. I've been deeply suicidal at times in my life and I don't know if I ever felt worse then at the end of that week. The hours the game industry demands are literally lethal and they work those hours during crunch for months at a time. The workers need to unionize and demand fair hours, production schedules be damned.

 

[Greigor the FellHand]

24 hours? seriously. what a bunch of BS! Someone gets fired and then they got out of their way to slander a company just because they couldn't keep up..

Casualties are needed to achieve greatness

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....

I hope this is a /s post.

 

[Frag Waffles]

I guarantee if TLOU2 were announced today as a late 2020/early 2021 title, this thread would be instantly buried and pitchforks would be out. Not by posters here, mind you, but by this community and the gaming community as a whole.

 

[Deleted member 7130]

End hyper capitalism

 

[John Frost]

I'm sure that is all you think about.



No you would not if you needed the money. Any that works at Naughty Dog probably has no problem finding another job though.



You serious?

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What

 

[Hucast]

Disgusting tbh

 

[ToddBonzalez]

End hyper capitalism

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This isn't a problem with capitalism in this particular case. Sounds like some people at ND want to work ridiculously hard by their own choice because they enjoy/ take pride in their work. Problem is- this creates a culture of peer pressure where everyone feels like they need to work like crazy to not be perceived as unmotivated or lazy.

Basically crunch culture coming from the bottom up rather than the top down like at many other studios.

 

[Hucast]

Obviously crunch is bad, but there is surely a large group at ND that are 100% invested in what they are doing. 24hr workdays are insane, no doubt, but from an art background I can totally understand the appeal and being hyper-enthusiastic about working on projects that are literally at the zenith of the medium. Problem arises when it becomes "expected" or "encouraged" though, since obviously not everyone is in the same situation

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You will have to hope the one passionate workaholic doesn't raise expectations for the others. Sadly most of the time management put such person on a higher pedestal as example making the others look like less. Best way is to have one rule for these kinds of things. 40 hour a week and that's it

 

[Nano-Nandy]

Crunch sucks and it's sadly normalized across many jobs. Like the mentality is "yeah we rest less, but make more money and the job gets done on time".

There are no alternatives in most cases and in some is not even optional.

Same way the "lazy devs" rhetoric is banned, is why some need to be more respectful about other jobs.

 

[Deleted member 7130]

This isn't a problem with capitalism in this particular case. Sounds like some people at ND want to work ridiculously hard by their own choice because they enjoy/ take pride in their work. Problem is- this creates a culture of peer pressure where everyone feels like they need to work like crazy to not be perceived as unmotivated or lazy.

Basically crunch culture coming from the bottom up rather than the top down like at many other studios.

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It is still to a good degree a culture cultivated by capitalism, internalized by workers. They are "passionate", hence they should work themselves sick to pursue their passions. It's one way capitalism increases exploitation by highjacking virtue.

 

[coldcrush]

Let me be clear. There is no game, developer or franchise , not even the coolest or best games where working those hours is ok. Don't listen to people who say it's voluntary because, while not detailed in a contract if you don't towe the line you are out or severely looked down on, made to feel you are letting the team down. This is stupid that we have been brainwashed to see this as normal or ok. Any game company that crunches values profits over people period. With adequate planning, staffing, tools and pipeline it's entirely possible to make a video game working 9-6 5 days a week

 

[Fredrik]

Why are the release dates set in stone so these things even happen? What's the big deal if a game get slightly delayed to keep the work environment healthier? I don't see why a game like Uncharted 4 for example would've sold less if it was released in Nov 2016 instead of may 2016. Delays do happen and for us gamers it's annoying of course but it's really not the end of the world and it should happen more often tbh so that gets normalized rather than the crunch.

 

[Deleted member 19213]

I don't understand the benefit of working 24 hour days. Wouldn't that decrease productivity? We all need sleep and a mental break... without that, how are they being productive. I feel like those kind of hours would hurt the development more than help it...

 

[Deleted member 19213]

There was a yoga session that was held around once a week that the developers could attend. I remember a co-worker asking if QA could do the yoga too but our managers told us, 'No.' They rarely provided us dinner for OT/crunch. I believe we only got dinner if the developers stayed. Even then I think we only got to grab food after the developers got theirs.
There was an email that got sent out to the company that invited everyone out to go have fun, but stated outright that contractors weren't allowed to join.
Many of us felt like we weren't really part of the company. We worked our asses off only to be treated as if we didn't belong. It sucked. That coupled with the amount of OT/crunch we worked really wore us down. I lived at home during my time at [Naughty Dog] and I could go a week without seeing my parents

Read more at https://www.playstationlifestyle.ne...og-crunch-horror-stories/#X0zQSVA82gm9qGod.99

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Segregating your workers by contractors, QA and developers? That's pretty gross. This is a company that likes to basically flaunt that they're on the right side of social issues, and behind the scenes they're segregating their workers. Insane..

 

[DaciaJC]

It is still to a good degree a culture cultivated by capitalism, internalized by workers. They are "passionate", hence they should work themselves sick to pursue their passions. It's one way capitalism increases exploitation by highjacking virtue.

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Is that necessarily something exclusive to capitalism, though?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stakhanovite_movement

 

[chris 1515]

They seriously need to rethink the QA things maybe hiring more QA people because 24 hours shift this is inhumane and probably inefficient.

 

[TheSpaceBetween]

No health professional should work for 24 hours either.

I am a doctor and I'm fucking exhausted after a 13 hour shift.

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I totally agree. I was just trying to conceive in my mind a possible scenario that could possibly warrant someone working that long. My mind went to a hypothetical crisis where people needed help and due to circumstance no other healthcare professional was available. I've worked in pharmacy for 6 years and have done my fair share of 12 hour shifts, and I'm absolutely dead after them.

 

[VanWinkle]

The problem when studios don't outright DISCOURAGE crunch and make sure people don't do it is: some people genuinely love working over and staying late, and because of that, there's pressure on people who don't, and a stigma that you don't care as much about the job if you go home on time.

It's not enough that management don't encourage it. They have to have policies against it.

 

[DrDeckard]

Yeah, crunch is nasty. I watched the Grounded documentary recently and it was clear that crunch was just accepted there.

If you don't think it has an effect on people's lives, check out the Raising Kratos documentary and watch Shannon's reaction to this question, and her response.

https://youtu.be/lJZWKBDXXFY?t=5207

She's the one on the right.

(timestamp to 1:26:49 if the link doesn't take you there)

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...that genuinely made me tear up and cry. These are people's lives being destroyed over this kind of crunch. Thanks for sharing. This hit home crunch more than anything I've read.

Going forward, I'm going to have to look into devs more before I purchase.

 

[Deleted member 7130]

Is that necessarily something exclusive to capitalism, though?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stakhanovite_movement

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Obviously, it's a tactic that can be deployed in any system. However, my original comment was a critique of the current excessive nature of modern capitalism (hyper capitalism). Indicating that we really need to reverse course, as opposed to just saying "end capitalism, full stop, and this problem will never exist again."

 

[chris 1515]

This isn't a problem with capitalism in this particular case. Sounds like some people at ND want to work ridiculously hard by their own choice because they enjoy/ take pride in their work. Problem is- this creates a culture of peer pressure where everyone feels like they need to work like crazy to not be perceived as unmotivated or lazy.

Basically crunch culture coming from the bottom up rather than the top down like at many other studios.

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It seems a little different than the article, it seems it the case for some teams but QA seems a different case where contractor are not well treated and 24 hours shift this is inefficient and dangerous...

 

[ToddBonzalez]

It seems a little different than the article, it seems it the case for some teams but QA seems a different case where contractor are not well treated and 24 hours shift this is inefficient and dangerous...

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Yeah the QA crunch is definitely a different issue than the dev crunch based on the article.

I was only really speaking to the topic of the dev crunch.

 

[Tpallidum]

Crazy. Seems things have really changed. We didn't have 24hr shifts when I was there. At least not in QA.12hr at most. And for those days they always ordered catered food for us which was nice. Still though several 12hr shifts in a row is rough. Just ask any nurse.

Obv being contractors, no one really complained. It was all in the hopes of getting picked up again for the next project. Next job was never guaranteed.

ND wasn't perfect but reading all the horror stories that came out from other studios it didn't seem that bad. I generally enjoyed my time there. A lot of the people there were really cool. I'm proud of the work we did. But I'm also glad I got out.

 

[DaciaJC]

Obviously, it's a tactic that can be deployed in any system. However, my original comment was a critique of the current excessive nature of modern capitalism (hyper capitalism). Indicating that we really need to reverse course, as opposed to just saying "end capitalism, full stop, and this problem will never exist again."

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I see. Thanks for clarifying.

 

[TestMonkey]

Why are the release dates set in stone so these things even happen? What's the big deal if a game get slightly delayed to keep the work environment healthier? I don't see why a game like Uncharted 4 for example would've sold less if it was released in Nov 2016 instead of may 2016. Delays do happen and for us gamers it's annoying of course but it's really not the end of the world and it should happen more often tbh so that gets normalized rather than the crunch.

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It's mostly marketing.

They seriously need to rethink the QA things maybe hiring more QA people because 24 hours shift this is inhumane and probably inefficient.

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The 24 hour shifts usually only happen during submission periods, usually within sight of the release date, when complete final checks need to be done on each final submission candidate. If any part of the final candidate changes (server tweak, any fix or adjustment, big or small), the checks are thrown out and QA starts over.

 

[Deleted member 19213]

Reading these horror stories in game development, I kinda wonder why anyone would want to subject themselves to this kind of treatment, hours, etc? The people making these games are brilliant and their skills can be applied to many jobs outside of gaming with great pay, better hours, and a better company culture.

 

[Randam]

When shooting, you have really strict union shit that mandates how many hours you can keep people. It's a lot different when it comes to meeting deadlines in pre and post production though, where there is a fuckton of crunch. I'm pretty confident that nothing is as bad as VFX studios though, those are a fucking nightmare from what I hear.

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the guy that did the effects and monsters for John Carpenter's The Thing worked 7 days a week for way over a year.

Bottin worked on The Thing seven days a week (including late nights) for a year and five weeks straight, producing every creature effect. According to the making of documentary on the DVD, the then 22 year-old's schedule was so punishing, and his attention to detail so precise, that after filming finished, he was hospitalised with exhaustion, pneumonia, and a bleeding ulcer.

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rob_Bottin#Career

 

[Wiped]

Surely someone cannot work solidly for 24 hours.

If it were me I'd spend entire hours at a time slacking off, going for food, having breaks. When will companies learn that time spent and amount of quality time spent are not the same thing.

I get more work done in a solid, dedicated 8 hours than in 12 hours where I feel tired and phase in and out of concentration

 

[Kamaros]

There will never be conscious consumption in capitalism.

 

[eysoycoco]

Fuck them. Getting my TLOU2 on the bin. i'll made sure to tell them too, maybe it's spiting to the wind but whatever.