Naughty Dog crunch culture examined

mael · Jul 25, 2019

Sheepinator said:
I am 100% certain I know a hell of a lot more about this than you. Please, keep educating on how it's just as hard to make a 90% rated game as a sub-50 rated game.

You clearly don't.
You think putting a certain amount of work is the way to get a highly rated work and if it fails it's because they haven't worked enough.
You truly think that the people who worked on Anthem somehow didn't work as hard as when they were making the Mass Effect games?
Again making games is making hard.
Your insistence that somehow the only to make the best games is to overwork employees to the bones is very concerning.

Deleted member 49438 · Jul 25, 2019

Disappointing. Thankfully most of their games don't appeal to me, so I just have to skip out on buying Last of Us 2 or buy used down the road or something...

Sheepinator · Jul 25, 2019

mael said:
You clearly don't.
You think putting a certain amount of work is the way to get a highly rated work and if it fails it's because they haven't worked enough.
You truly think that the people who worked on Anthem somehow didn't work as hard as when they were making the Mass Effect games?
Again making games is making hard.
Your insistence that somehow the only to make the best games is to overwork employees to the bones is very concerning.

Don't make up things and attribute them to me. For instance I just said they could be more efficient working less, and you post the opposite of that above. You've already demonstrated how little you know about this topic when you implied it's just as hard to make a garbage game as a great game, so there's no point in back and forth.

mael · Jul 25, 2019

Sheepinator said:
Don't make up things and attribute them to me. For instance I just said they could be more efficient working less, and you post the opposite of that above. You've already demonstrated how little you know about this topic when you implied it's just as hard to make a garbage game as a great game, so there's no point in back and forth.

We have enough stories about cancelled and projects that didn't pan out to know that working hard isn't the issue if the game turns out poorly.
Like seriously take a look at the wealth of material we have and the amount of work any company attending e3 said.
And it's not even new.
Take SquareSoft circa 90's, from what they say one of the hardest game to work on was Secret of Mana. This project was so hard that it's why they wanted to move out of Nintendo ecosystem. It's far from being the best game they worked on in that generation, it's not even top10 (and the sales performance is more due to Nintendo handling the marketing overseas).
You see Naughty Dogs games and really liked them and fell for the marketing speech about they were so passionate and that's why their games are so good or something.
You are literally spouting marketing.

On top of that, games with small budget usually don't turn out that good because of the constraint devs have to work with and that can have negative impact on the project as well.
Don't dismiss their blood and sweat because you dislike the end result.
Next step you'll go lazy devs on them when they sacrificied a lot for the project.

xabbott · Jul 25, 2019

Sheepinator said:
Don't make up things and attribute them to me. For instance I just said they could be more efficient working less, and you post the opposite of that above. You've already demonstrated how little you know about this topic when you implied it's just as hard to make a garbage game as a great game, so there's no point in back and forth.

But...it is just as hard to make a "garbage" or poorly rated game as an excellent one. The amount of crunch or work doesn't mean the game gets better. Often times its more about project leadership vs raw man hours.

Gold Arsene · Jul 25, 2019

Hubologist said:
Can you explain why? Have you ever worked in a team? Have you ever been inspired by someone you look up to?

"Disgusting" just seems a bit strong.

"Inspired" is a garbage spin to try and make unfair working conditions sound noble when really it's higher ups manipulating peoples emotions to cheep out on better working conditions.

Do me a favor and watch this video. Listen to the quotes from McNamara, and get back to me about how this is totally about passion and doesn't have to be changed.

It's disgusting and anyone who tries to spin it as some kind of noble sacrifice is drinking to Kool-Aid.

Mifec · Jul 25, 2019

Daily reminder that every single person in a high position is culpable and the same level of scorn that is aimed at the lower level managers applies to them.

elenarie · Jul 25, 2019

SuikerBrood said:
Peer pressure is a stupid thing. Management should've stepped in.

Peer pressure is a real thing. A good people manager would understand this and step in to solve the situation by telling people to go home earlier, as they indirectly are causing stress and more workload to their colleagues.

1.21Gigawatts · Jul 25, 2019

'Yeah, obviously the rumors are true. We work hard here at Naughty Dog. But just keep pushing guys! It'll be worth it.'

This shit is delusional. Missing out on months, even years of your live to deliver a fucking product is NOT, under any circumstances, worth it. And if you think it is then there is something fundamentally wrong with your life.
The colonization of the lifeworld by economic imperatives, putting all these little worker bees in their cozy iron cages, infecting their minds with a rationality telling them that this is what they should strive for. Ridiculous shit.
And don't anyone dare tell themselves that this "hard work" is somehow something honorable or commendable or something thats inherent to the art or passion - its the fucking consequence of a company trying to increase profits and dividends for their shareholders, it has not the slightest thing to do with art or passion, only with money.

I'm a big fan of NaughtyDog games, but if you have to literally(not literally, but close) grind up human lives in order to deliver your product then you are a shit company. Plain and simple.

dreamlongdead · Jul 25, 2019

People at ND live to work. That's not my lifestyle at all, but there are some people who don't mind crunching.

They provide us with phenomenal games to play, but the methods and mentality involved are questionable.

TheKeyPit · Jul 25, 2019

24 hour workday?

Naughty Robots...

DevilMayGuy · Jul 25, 2019

"But some people are live-to-work types"
Yeah, they exist. I work with some of them. It's up to management to make sure that despite those weirdos, people in general get to work reasonable schedules. It's up to management to curb such behavior, not to encourage or praise it. It's unhealthy, and those strange people who are willing to be exploited enable the pressure for normal folks to crunch.
All of this for fucking videogames. They're not exactly curing cancer; it can fucking wait a few months.

Diarrhea Day-Lewis · Jul 25, 2019

This is highly unethical, especially 24 hour days for weeks and 60 hour weeks for 9 months.

I wish there was some way consumers would actively punish developers for doing this but we all lap up theirs games. I want TLOU2 and don't want that hard work to go unrewarded but there's no way to show you hate this crunch other than letting the game bomb at retail and with bigger IPs like Naughty Dogs it's nearly impossible to get all consumers to go along with letting it bomb to protest the treatment of employees.

As much as I want TLOU2 day one, I think I will wait and buy the first used copy I see. The only difference I can really make.

elenarie · Jul 25, 2019

On a somewhat funny note. It is hilarious to see some of the posts here, and go back and see the posts in the Treyarch thread.

But I guess blind fanboysm and shitposting can only go so far. :)

Deleted member 4353 · Jul 25, 2019

This topic definitely doesnt have as posts as it would if it was about say EA or Activision and crunch.... lol.

John Frost · Jul 25, 2019

Braaier said:
Well certainly makes it easier for me to skip it. I don't have a PS4 anymore, but if/when I get a PS5 I could easily skip it because of these types of practices. That's hyperbole? hmm

Don't get a PS5.

Kalentan · Jul 25, 2019

elenarie said:
On a somewhat funny note. It is hilarious to see some of the posts here, and go back and see the posts in the Treyarch thread.

But I guess blind fanboysm and shitposting can only go so far. :)

The Treyarch firing thread or that original Kotaku article?

corasaur · Jul 25, 2019

it's really weird to me that we keep calling exploitative working hours "crunch time" as if it were some kinda brief phase.

Crunch is when you cancel your social life for a week to meet a deadline.

If you're working 6 12-hour days a week for most of a year that's just a job with sadistic hours.

John Frost · Jul 25, 2019

Sounds like Rockstar, but not as bad.

Retsudo · Jul 25, 2019

Developers here in this thread, how do you manage work and family time during these months?

That cant be healthy for a relationship in any way. Let alone, if you're a parent that must be super complicated.

Hubologist · Jul 25, 2019

Gold Arsene said:
"Inspired" is a garbage spin to try and make unfair working conditions sound noble when really it's higher ups manipulating peoples emotions to cheep out on better working conditions.

Do me a favor and watch this video. Listen to the quotes from McNamara, and get back to me about how this is totally about passion and doesn't have to be changed.

It's disgusting and anyone who tries to spin it as some kind of noble sacrifice is drinking to Kool-Aid.

I'm not using "inspired" in that context, though. I have personally been inspired by peers in my career, and it has been to my benefit. I put in extra hours when I'm in a groove, or when my team needs to reach a particular milestone.

I should've read the article first, though. I do not work the ungodly hours reported in that article, nor do I support those types of working hours. 12 hours is a stretch but doable in spurts, but there is no way someone keeps much longer than that. 24 hours is insane and ND should do something to ensure it never happens again.

Also, it sounds like a nightmare to have worked on LA Noire.

Gold Arsene · Jul 25, 2019

Hubologist said:
I'm not using "inspired" in that context, though. I have personally been inspired by peers in my career, and it has been to my benefit. I put in extra hours when I'm in a groove, or when my team needs to reach a particular milestone.

I should've read the article first, though. I do not work the ungodly hours reported in that article, nor do I support those types of working hours. 12 hours is a stretch but doable in spurts, but there is no way someone keeps much longer than that. 24 hours is insane and ND should do something to ensure it never happens again.

Also, it sounds like a nightmare to have worked on LA Noire.

Alright I see where the misunderstanding was on my part. Sorry about how aggressive I was.

bastardly · Jul 25, 2019

At this point it's easier to point out which developer is crunch free.

woolyninja · Jul 25, 2019

F4raday said:
Firstly, gaming industry is one of the biggest offenders here and it's often not the workers choice to do crunch, but the management.

Secondly, there is a difference between people choosing to stay at work longer and a systemic problem of people being expected to do so (or required to do so).

Thirdly, it's debatable whether a worker should even be able to "choose" to do long hours without compensation. When (due to state enforced regulations) payment for additional hours is unavoidable, companies suddenly start enforcing rules that incentivise people to go home after their shift. Fancy that.

Twenty7kvn said:
So people can't talk about it and bring light to a problem that happens in the game industry, which in turn could probably bring light to a real workplace problem that could help change other industries as well?

show me your skeleton said:
it happens elsewhere so therefor we don't talk about it?

Sorry if I wasn't clear. I wasn't saying we shouldn't talk about it, just that it seems completely silly to limit it to "Game Development" when its more of a general workforce problem. Most companies understaff and overwork their employees.

Hubologist · Jul 25, 2019

Gold Arsene said:
Alright I see where the misunderstanding was on my part. Sorry about how aggressive I was.

No, I re-read my post and I see how it sounds hand-wavy. All good! This was productive.

elenarie · Jul 25, 2019

Retsudo said:
Developers here in this thread, how do you manage work and family time during these months?

That cant be healthy for a relationship in any way. Let alone, if you're a parent that must be super complicated.

By going home on time, not staying late to work overtime. There is always tomorrow.
If you have kids and you need to pick them up, manage them, whatever, you do that and nobody tells you anything bad about it.
If your kid is sick, you stay home with them until they get better, and if anything needs to be acted upon, you remote from home to compensate a bit.

TheSpaceBetween · Jul 25, 2019

No one should ever work a 24 hour work day, ever. The only possible exception I can see to this is a doctor or nurse in an absolute emergency situation where no one else is available.

Hubologist · Jul 25, 2019

TheSpaceBetween said:
No one should ever work a 24 hour work day, ever. The only possible exception I can see to this is a doctor or nurse in an absolute emergency situation where no one else is available.

And even then I'd question how someone who has been up for that long still has his/her wits. It's straight up dangerous.

Apply that to the QA. That employee hasn't slept and has to get home somehow. What if they drove? If they fell asleep at the wheel and caused an accident, ND should be held liable. God forbid it ever happens, but it's a risk for anyone who's overworked and/or under-rested.

bastardly · Jul 25, 2019

Hubologist said:
And even then I'd question how someone who has been up for that long still has his/her wits. It's straight up dangerous.

Apply that to the QA. That employee hasn't slept and has to get home somehow. What if they drove? If they fell asleep at the wheel and caused an accident, ND should be held liable. God forbid it ever happens, but it's a risk for anyone who's overworked and/or under-rested.

I don't condone this, but I've done a few times and I'd say for me at a certain point you're so zeroed In and hyper focused that the world just melts away. I do remember towards the back half I was starting to dream while awake and that's when I knew I pushed my body to the limit, this was at like 36 hour mark.

And when we crunched back then, you honestly didn't go home, you sleep in the office or in your car. Us as group wouldn't let people drive home right after a long shift. I was young single man back then though, I wouldn't dream of doing any of that shit today.

NoUse4AName · Jul 25, 2019

crunch is something inevitable in the entertainment industry, I personally don't have a problem with crunch time if I get the pay I deserve for my Time, but I have a problem with Crunch culture..work on a 6-month project and Crunch the last 1 month or 2 weeks before delivery for me is not Crunch Culture but is not the same than Crunch during the whole project...that IMO is crunch culture.

every project I work, I know that we going to crunch at some point and I'm ok with that I like my job I love what I do and I have no problem working 12 hours...But I did work one time with an agency that literally makes you crunch since the day one till the end of the project for 5 months. In that case, that's something that I just can't accept

funky · Jul 25, 2019

I wonder how many talent people bailed from ND because of the crunch.

Uncharted 3 and 4 where notorious death matches for the team.

Falchion · Jul 25, 2019

A 24 hour bug testing session wouldn't even be productive after a certain point. Let these people sleep......

PMS341 · Jul 25, 2019

dreamlongdead said:
People at ND live to work. That's not my lifestyle at all, but there are some people who don't mind crunching.

They provide us with phenomenal games to play, but the methods and mentality involved are questionable.

Not just questionable, it's wrong. Work is not life, and those who have deluded themselves into thinking so need help from those around them. No product for a corporation is worth losing your personal life over.

TheSpaceBetween · Jul 25, 2019

funky said:
I wonder how many talent people bailed from ND because of the crunch.

Uncharted 3 and 4 where notorious death matches for the team.

I can't imagine how brutal U3 must have been. Same two year dev cycle that U2 got, but with basically half a team.

Village · Jul 25, 2019

Eggman said:
No one said "crunch in okay" but people are definitely overreacting and are being ignorant to the fact that most of the stuff in front of you or that you use on a daily basis were made in China where kids work long hours in sweatshops or other poor countries with horrible labor laws.

Tons of industries have people working long hours for long periods of time.

Hell my friend works 12 hours a day and he fixes water pipes. Would you boycott using tap water if you found out the people that work on water pipes work long hours.

No one is boycotting Naughty Dog games because of "crunch" and anyone that works for Naughty Dog likely know what it's like to work there. A lot of the shit you own were made by people who work longer hours, are younger and compensated a lot less than Naughty Dog employees. Wake up.

" All this other stuff is bad, its hypocritical to talk about just this "

How about people have been talking about those things and we should do something about all of that.

Abu · Jul 25, 2019

damn. even with the excruciating, dreadful, and just downright inexcusable working hours these ND employees go through they still end up putting out mediocre games. you hate to see it

end crunch time. let my people enjoy what they do and at their own pace. better working environments is a plus for all of us

digita1alchemy · Jul 25, 2019

Game industry crunch is almost always due to poor project management. But to be fair, large software development projects are insanely hard to plan effectively. I only still work in the industry because we do a very good job of avoiding crunch where I am currently. I'm impressed by Nintendo's apparent lack of crunch time as well.

Braaier · Jul 25, 2019

John Frost said:
Sounds like Rockstar, but not as bad.

Both are bad.

nib95 · Jul 25, 2019

Hopefully the coverage on this sort of thing lends to them sorting things out and improving everything around crunch. At the BARE MINIMUM they should at least work to greatly reduce the crunch period, as I doubt they eradicate it completely (due to the nature of this type of product and employment).

Crunch seems pretty systemic to game development as a whole, or simply to a huge variety of employment and industries with project and other deadlines in general. Lord knows I had to personally deal with it constantly in past media, advertising and web development jobs.

Abu said:
damn. even with the excruciating, dreadful, and just downright inexcusable working hours these ND employees go through they still end up putting out mediocre games. you hate to see it

Abu said:
Sony has good games? 😂😂💀

Here's hoping MS releases their new console early and actually show y'all some quality games. Bless Xbox 🙏🏽

Abu said:
deadstation 5 gone bro. long gone to the trash bin with its uncharted clones and furry animal games they call a triple A library.

happy days ahead of us yall

Abu said:
hopefully days gone 2 is multi platform. a gem like that deserves to be played on all machines

about the only credible good game to come out of Sony in the past 25 years

Abu said:
what about us xbox players? smh

We get it dude, you hate PS games, they all suck except Days Gone, and you play on other systems. Your whole jig is getting a bit tired.

Sotha_Sil · Jul 25, 2019

Pretty much every professional in any industry will have to deal with crunch in some capacity.... but NINE MONTHS of it is too much. Way too much.

I did two straight months of physically demanding environmental work (12 hour days, 120+ degree weather) once with just 2 days off the whole time. I was burned out. Working in an office is even more draining from my experience. I can't imagine 70 hr work weeks for 8 months in am office.

Splader · Jul 25, 2019

Increasing workload for a week or a few weeks at max is something I can understand.

Having 6-7 day work weeks for 8 months? That's ridiculous.

Bundy · Jul 25, 2019

If I had to work more than 10 hours per day multiple times I would quit my job asap.

Cipherr · Jul 25, 2019

jrush64 said:
This topic definitely doesnt have as posts as it would if it was about say EA or Activision and crunch.... lol.

Yeah I just finished this thread just now. Its very very different than it would be if it were someone else.

"Maybe some of the employees even like it! They prefer it that way!"

Do you guys even have specific quotes or citations for this stuff? Or just making it up as you go. How many ND developers have come out and said they PREFER 24 hour shifts with massive crunch before you go attributing this stuff to them randomly...

Thrill_house · Jul 25, 2019

Stop being tight asses and have two or more shifts!!! Jesus fucking christ if you are going to try to run your studios like factories then have some sensibility about it and stay open 24/7 with a few crews. That big money asshole lead dev wants to be the man? Let his/her ass earn it and they can work through as many as he/she can squeeze in then.

Linus815 · Jul 25, 2019

John Frost said:
Sounds like Rockstar, but not as bad.

uh, 24 hour shifts dont warrant any whataboutism

bishoptl · Jul 25, 2019

Hubologist said:
And even then I'd question how someone who has been up for that long still has his/her wits. It's straight up dangerous.

Apply that to the QA. That employee hasn't slept and has to get home somehow. What if they drove? If they fell asleep at the wheel and caused an accident, ND should be held liable. God forbid it ever happens, but it's a risk for anyone who's overworked and/or under-rested.

This struck home with me.

As a young QA tester working on the PSX port of Need For Speed 3D0, I fell asleep driving home after pulling a 20 hour shift. Woke up just in time to pull myself away from the concrete median, the last possible second. Ever since then, I've done my best to ensure crunch on my teams has been mitigated as well as possible - and have sent more employees home to rest than I can count. We make games, but it's never worth our lives.

The Struggler · Jul 25, 2019

Bundy said:
If I had to work more than 10 hours per day multiple times I would quit my job asap.

You're a shoe salesman

The Struggler · Jul 25, 2019

headspawn said:
I can't think of a single job that's its not at least somewhat of a norm.

I was a cook, I did it constantly and then in music production, maybe a bit less consistency, but sometimes things need to be done at odder hours there.

People always go full boner about unions here yet two of my closest friends are in unions, one a plumber, the other in steel.. when overtime comes up they're still pressured to pick it up. The newer they are, the more they know they'll be the first pulled when projects slow.

My wife and brother are nurses and over the years from different positions (LPN, RN, Hospice, Medic) and Holy fuck all of the above applies there as well, be kind when you go to a hospital.

I'm curious what work fields with lots of demand, good pay and such don't have some form of crunch or seemingly endless available overtime. And people saying they shouldn't do it or even allow it... sometimes you look at your paycheck and your bills and yeah, time and a half and bonuses for picking up extra shifts is a hell of an incentive sometimes.

Teacher here and fun fact when I have to work over time I dont get paid for it at all. When I have to stay back for parent teachers, meetings etc I dont see a god damn dime. We have a union but no one will bat an eye and fight this. Also to get an additional day off/sick day you have to do 50 hours of extra curriculars for one day. And again for those 50 extra curricular hours you dont get paid for those. Teachers get fucked in every which way when it comes to over time.

Messofanego · Jul 25, 2019

The reason I assume people might justify crunch culture is because the news stories of crunch come from mainly critically acclaimed studios, and not poor-to-mediocre rated games.

"At least the game came out great, worth it"
"You can't get these great games made without crunch"

Dr. Doom · Jul 25, 2019

TheSpaceBetween said:
No one should ever work a 24 hour work day, ever. The only possible exception I can see to this is a doctor or nurse in an absolute emergency situation where no one else is available.

No health professional should work for 24 hours either.

I am a doctor and I'm fucking exhausted after a 13 hour shift.

Naughty Dog crunch culture examined

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