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thepenguin55

Member
Oct 28, 2017
11,889
Schreier's book is great for this (the second chapter is about Naughty Dog).

It's probably the weirdest chapter too, in that like a lot of the linked OP article says, a fair few people over there seem very okay with it / know what they're getting into.

I can get that... to an extent. I generally subscribe to if you know what you're getting into then it's fine. I'm sure you (and many others) will agree that the problem is that fair few people doesn't equate to 100%. If there's even 1 person there who is not into constantly crunching then it's a problem that needs to be fixed.
 

SleepSmasher

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,094
Australia
I'm getting a little tired of these articles acting like the gaming industry is the only tech job that has crunch culture. Every company I've worked at for 20+ years has lots of people who work well into the night. This is a social issue where working long hours = dedication to the job and a hard worker. In reality it usually means poor time management.
Exactly.
 

Deleted member 1589

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,576
I love ND, they are insane but I have been worried about the future of the Dev team if this keeps up. Doesn't even seem like 'normal' crunch either.

They've been talking about being better since Uncharted 2. Hopefully they manage to get a good equilibrium between quality and man hours now.

I don't want to see another Bruce Straley situation.
 

Herey

Unshakable Resolve
Member
Jan 10, 2019
3,415
Pretty decent article, and a comprehensive list of sources that cover all facets of crunch.

QA being treated like shit, peer pressure, some that just genuinely see it as not wanting to let the team down, burnout. Something needs to change in QA departments across the industry, because they don't even get paid the high wages to anyway justify it.
 

RoboPlato

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,826
Really hope the situation is better on TLoU2. Seems like they've been taking their time so maybe Bruce leaving after Uncharted 4 and so many staff talking about how rough that game was a wake up call. I love their games but don't want the team to kill themselves over it.
 

Deleted member 2254

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
21,467
Hyperbolic replies and "boycott" to TLoU 2 in 3, 2, 1...

Yeah, fuck the outrage about people killing themselves by having to work 70+ hours every week for years with practically no breaks, the most important that we get our videogames. Let's call out devs like Treyarch crunching but Naughty Dog make good games, so it's worth it. Right?
 
Oct 25, 2017
11,506
Seems like the companies who don't crunch like crazy, like Media Molecule, are the exception instead of the rule. :(
 

chris 1515

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,075
Barcelona Spain
I love ND, they are insane but I have been worried about the future of the Dev team if this keeps up. Doesn't even seem like 'normal' crunch either.

They've been talking about being better since Uncharted 2. Hopefully they manage to get a good equilibrium between quality and man hours now.

I don't want to see another Bruce Straley situation.

It works for them because they have tons of people working there for years for example in the animation team. Like I said they have extra vacation between projects. It was not a normal situation. After discussing the ND culture is different. Insomiac or Media Molecule are exactly the opposite for example...

EDIT: After this is different for QA, this is maybe the difference between the two stories. I think most of QA employee aren't internal employee if I remember well...
 
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Deleted member 3017

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
17,653
I'm obviously not ok with it. But it's always the same reaction and same replies, and I bet a lot of people here love to showcase "support" by posting on a forum but will be there day one for their latest release. It's hypocritical. Also, crunch happens fucking everywhere in the tech industry. It's a shame but it is what it is. Not buying product or services from these companies won't do shit to change this, as history shows.

you honestly seem pretty ok with it. You seem to have an issue with attention being brought to this subject.
 

Asbsand

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
9,901
Denmark
Well, not necessarily. I was under the impression that UC4 was one of those games where like 90% of it got shitcanned about 12 months from release and they pushed ahead rather than delay. For a game which doesn't have massively troubled production, it's not really what it takes at all.
Good point. Yeah, I had actually forgotten about that. It seemed UC4 was very turbulent and that probably caused people like Bruce Straley to burn out. He took a sick leave afterwards but was let go because it lasted for too long.
 

LuisGarcia

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
3,478
I have zero issue with crunch as long as it's two things. Optional and paid.

I used to love the crunch periods in my work because I would come out the other end loaded. It was always quite a nice team atmosphere as well.

That 24 hour shift should not happen though.
 
Sep 12, 2018
19,846
I'm getting a little tired of these articles acting like the gaming industry is the only tech job that has crunch culture. Every company I've worked at for 20+ years has lots of people who work well into the night. This is a social issue where working long hours = dedication to the job and a hard worker. In reality it usually means poor time management.
What's your point? Don't talk about it in one place if it exists elsewhere too?
 

Deleted member 38573

User requested account closure
Banned
Jan 17, 2018
3,902
That is horrible. I heard rumblings about video game crunch culture but never fully empathised until I entered the work force.

A hit to TLOU 2 sales could be the best way to force this issue into the mainstream.
 

vestan

#REFANTAZIO SWEEP
Member
Dec 28, 2017
24,759
I'm obviously not ok with it. But it's always the same reaction and same replies, and I bet a lot of people here love to showcase "support" by posting on a forum but will be there day one for their latest release. It's hypocritical. Also, crunch happens fucking everywhere in the tech industry. It's a shame but it is what it is. Not buying product or services from these companies won't do shit to change this, as history shows.
e47.png
 

Twenty7kvn

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
1,749
I'm getting a little tired of these articles acting like the gaming industry is the only tech job that has crunch culture. Every company I've worked at for 20+ years has lots of people who work well into the night. This is a social issue where working long hours = dedication to the job and a hard worker. In reality it usually means poor time management.
So people can't talk about it and bring light to a problem that happens in the game industry, which in turn could probably bring light to a real workplace problem that could help change other industries as well?
 

SirBaron

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
853
Terrible working conditions. Perhaps Sony needs to step in and discuss adjustments with the ND leadership team in order to protect the workers.

Hopefully fans will acknowledge these issues and respond with their wallets when TLoU2 arrives. Be the change you want to see guys!

Not to ignore the crunch culture in the gaming industry, but you might as well stop living because nearly everything you buy is "crunch" culture.

Flowers or vegetables grown in industrial greenhouses? 41'c outside no problem working 6-5 when it's 55+ inside the glasshouse, Items from Amazon, people picking items up every 8 seconds otherwise they're fired after 3 warnings (not just Amazon basically most online retail).

This isn't just a gaming phenomenon this is a problem caused by capitalism and and competition. It's not something we can fix unless we somehow change society on the whole in every single country.

So people can't talk about it and bring light to a problem that happens in the game industry, which in turn could probably bring light to a real workplace problem that could help change other industries as well?

You can talk about it sure, but as soon as you try to change the system and people have to pay way more for everything they buy they'll be rioting.

Isn't something that can be fixed, as there'll always be another country who will ignoreitand try to one up the other countries by abusing human rights. Thus creating a never ending cycle of one upping.
 

Ohri-Jin

Banned
Jul 11, 2019
1,129
The Netherlands
How is the industry going to handle this Crunch culture? Seems highly unhealthy and unsustainable in the long run.

I read the whole article and it seems 50/50 divided. Not mandated but severely encouraged. Peer pressure. Company culture. Some accept it. Some can't bare it.
 
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F4raday

Member
Jul 4, 2019
211
I'm getting a little tired of these articles acting like the gaming industry is the only tech job that has crunch culture. Every company I've worked at for 20+ years has lots of people who work well into the night. This is a social issue where working long hours = dedication to the job and a hard worker. In reality it usually means poor time management.

Firstly, gaming industry is one of the biggest offenders here and it's often not the workers choice to do crunch, but the management.

Secondly, there is a difference between people choosing to stay at work longer and a systemic problem of people being expected to do so (or required to do so).

Thirdly, it's debatable whether a worker should even be able to "choose" to do long hours without compensation. When (due to state enforced regulations) payment for additional hours is unavoidable, companies suddenly start enforcing rules that incentivise people to go home after their shift. Fancy that.
 

Blade Wolf

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,512
Taiwan
People work 24hr a day just so Ellie's fucking brow looks slightly more realistic than in the first game.

I guess you can't have ''okay'' graphics these days without people whining like a spoiled little bitch.
 

jaekeem

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,743
I'm obviously not ok with it. But it's always the same reaction and same replies, and I bet a lot of people here love to showcase "support" by posting on a forum but will be there day one for their latest release. It's hypocritical. Also, crunch happens fucking everywhere in the tech industry. It's a shame but it is what it is. Not buying product or services from these companies won't do shit to change this, as history shows.

stockholm syndrome
 

SleepSmasher

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,094
Australia
User banned (5 days): Dismissing serious concerns on a sensitive topic, thread-whining, accumulated infractions.
you honestly seem pretty ok with it.
I'm not ok with the drama that ensues every single time there's a thread about crunch here. Like another user said above, it's almost like it only happens with game studios. There's probably crunch happening at the bakery close to your place. Or at your Internet provider. Or your local supermarket. It's simple as that. And yes, we should talk about it but then the "I'm done with ND or "X" dev starts to pop up and it's just cringy as fuck because you know these people won't stop buying their games. Almost saving this thread and comparing user by user with the official TLOU2 OT to ask about it again in the near future.
 

Deleted member 3017

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
17,653
I'm not ok with the drama that ensues every single time there's a thread about crunch here. Like another user said above, it's almost like it only happens with game studios. There's probably crunch happening at the bakery close to your place. Or at your Internet provider. Or your local supermarket. It's simple as that. And yes, we should talk about it but then the "I'm done with ND or "X" dev starts to pop up and it's just cringy as fuck because you know these people won't stop buying their games. Almost saving this thread and comparing user by user with the official TLOU2 OT to ask about it again in the near future.

no, crunch of this type does not happen at my local bakery or supermarket.

You're really saying a whole lot of nonsense to downplay this issue.
 

jaekeem

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,743
I'm not ok with the drama that ensues every single time there's a thread about crunch here. Like another user said above, it's almost like it only happens with game studios. There's probably crunch happening at the bakery close to your place. Or at your Internet provider. Or your local supermarket. It's simple as that. And yes, we should talk about it but then the "I'm done with ND or "X" dev starts to pop up and it's just cringy as fuck because you know these people won't stop buying their games. Almost saving this thread and comparing user by user with the official TLOU2 OT to ask about it again in the near future.

are you insane? your argument is that you think bakeries and supermarkets are working these hours? LOL
 

Zonal Hertz

Banned
Jun 13, 2018
1,079
It's almost like talented people who are passionate about things want to make personal sacrifices in the name of their art and passions being as good as they can be? As long as its optional and paid for, is this a problem?

A lot of people in here have clearly never been lucky enough to work on something they care about or take pride in. You just work so you can do other things in life and make a living - good for you, but that's not the case for everyone. I'd also say if you have that mentality - you aren't someone naughty dog or rockstar would be interested in and I don't see how that's a problem. It's not your right to work for one of the best game developers in the world and it's certainly not like you couldn't earn better money elsewhere if you were talented enough. You buy into the culture or you object and move on. It's a young persons game to work in these environments.
 
Oct 31, 2017
2,304
Peer pressure comes from having a team of brilliant, talented, dedicated people working hard on a project together."
I understand this so well. I work...pretty insane hours and none of us are being made to work that long (the core of our company management is quite small) but everyone is so dedicated and loves their work so much, it's their passion, that they want to stay and work these crazy long spans. Then you think to yourself, "I can't be the only one that's not pulling their weight comparatively." So you start slowly stacking on your hours more and more. You become more competent in your position as well, which enables you to take on greater responsibilities. You then handle those responsibilities more efficiently which allows you to handle even more tasks throughout the workweek. And it snowballs and keeps building and building and suddenly you are working more than you're not. Much more.

So I have no idea about ND, but the way that quote is worded feels like what I feel. It's not insidious peer-pressure, it's just keeping up with people even more passionate and dedicated then you are. Either way, I hope things aren't too bad at that studio as we've heard so many horror stories before.
 

Rotobit

Editor at Nintendo Wire
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
10,196
I'm not ok with the drama that ensues every single time there's a thread about crunch here. Like another user said above, it's almost like it only happens with game studios. There's probably crunch happening at the bakery close to your place. Or at your Internet provider. Or your local supermarket.

I mean... it's a video game forum. Of course video game developers will get the lions share of the argument. I'm pretty sure Etcetera would be keen to point out the horrible working conditions in other sectors, too, but a large swath of other entertainment industries have unions that prevent this sort of thing from happening.
 

Dan Thunder

Member
Nov 2, 2017
14,158
I always laugh at the "There's no official mandate that employees need to crunch" excuse being rolled out. It's such a nice, easy catch-all to try and evade and responsibility when everyone from the janitor to the CEO know that if you don't do it it'll be remembered and held against you.

I do worry about what it'll take for someone to step in and force companies to work to acceptable hours. Someone dying in the office? Committing suicide because of stress?

I've worked jobs where I've worked 80-100 hour weeks but they were very much short-term exceptions. I just don't think I could cope with those kind of hours for the length of time that developers seemingly have to.
 

m_dorian

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,403
Athens, Greece
I can only hope that things will get better for the people that make our hobby come true.
And I hope for more empathy when news we learn under what conditions these people work.
 

Deleted member 3017

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
17,653
It's almost like talented people who are passionate about things want to make personal sacrifices in the name of their art and passions being as good as they can be? As long as its optional and paid for, is this a problem?

A lot of people in here have clearly never been lucky enough to work on something they care about or take pride in. You just work so you can do other things in life and make a living - good for you, but that's not the case for everyone. I'd also say if you have that mentality - you aren't someone naughty dog or rockstar would be interested in and I don't see how that's a problem. It's not your right to work for one of the best game developers in the world and it's certainly not like you couldn't earn better money elsewhere if you were talented enough. You buy into the culture or you object and move on. It's a young persons game to work in these environments.

A number of developers in this industry take full advantage of the passion held by studio members. This is not a good thing.
 
Oct 31, 2017
2,304
It's almost like talented people who are passionate about things want to make personal sacrifices in the name of their art and passions being as good as they can be?
This is akin to my experience. My colleagues are all entertainment professionals and performers (or about 95% are) and this is what they live and breathe. Cutting their hours shorter and removing them from this passion that they're also miraculously being paid for would be tantamount to a death sentence. These people would kill themselves if they had to work a 35-hour workweek at 7-11.
 

EarthPainting

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,878
Town adjacent to Silent Hill
That's how a lot of companies operate in the tech industry. Even when they have no producers or leads to make demands, it's set up in such a way that employees escalate things themselves because everyone measures themselves to their peers. If you're not keeping up with the others, you can be sure your peers will remind you that not pulling you're weight. Cliques and bullying are common either as a result. If you don't adapt, chances are others will stop working with you, which will impact your performance, making it easier to get rid of you. The people at the top are well-aware of these dynamics, and reap all the benefits from it without having to make their hands dirty. This spins even more out of control when you're talking about a studio with some prestige. Burn-out isn't really a matter of "if", but "when" for a lot of these studios.

As for Naughty Dog specifically, I remember reading once that they had they had trouble keeping senior staff, because of of their crunch culture. Might have been a Schreier article.

I always laugh at the "There's no official mandate that employees need to crunch" excuse being rolled out. It's such a nice, easy catch-all to try and evade and responsibility when everyone from the janitor to the CEO know that if you don't do it it'll be remembered and held against you.

ZO6iGuu.png
 

SleepSmasher

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,094
Australia
I mean... it's a video game forum. Of course video game developers will get the lions share of the argument. I'm pretty sure Etcetera would be keen to point out the horrible working conditions in other sectors, too, but a large swath of other entertainment industries have unions that prevent this sort of thing from happening.
Indeed, agree. Perhaps I'm just too sensitive today. But you're right, Era is place to discuss games so I guess you're right.
 

Twenty7kvn

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
1,749
You can talk about it sure, but as soon as you try to change the system and people have to pay way more for everything they buy they'll be rioting.

Isn't something that can be fixed, as there'll always be another country who will ignoreitand try to one up the other countries by abusing human rights. Thus creating a never ending cycle of one upping.
So we should just give up because it's hard and it could piss off some people? Are you guys for real i guess women should give up on equal pay because some company in some far off land is going to continue to abuse the system, like fuck outta here with that shit.
 

Stef

Member
Oct 28, 2017
5,464
Rome, Italy, Planet Earth
And here we see pretty much why stories like these have little effect. Gamers will happily defend any kind of working conditions if they like the studio and games, and will even shit over the work of other developers with a more balanced work-life-balance for not being as passionate and details-focused as Naughty Dog or Rockstar are.

Oh, this.

So much this.

I've seen this happen in the boardgame world too and it is a bit depressing.
 

Expy

Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,878
How is the industry going to handle this Crunch culture? Seems highly unhealthy and unsustainable in the long run.
This is pretty much widespread and standard in almost the entire IT/programming industry.

Most of us do the extra time because we care about the product we're going to ship out. Part of it is yes, making sure our job is safe, but if the a shitty product ships out, it's on us (for the most part, product owner decisions aside).

We have a dedicated QA staff here that works hard, and yes they do sometimes to extra time to vet those last few bugs, but our managers are pretty good with that, they offer compensation time later, sometimes a multiple of the time you put in.

I know some managers at huge companies, even EA, that did the same as far a comp-time.
 

TP-DK

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,055
Denmark
US needs to put it shit together and have laws against this. People keep mentioning that its a problem in the industri but we keep getting news about horrific workplaces in US in all kind of industries.
 

Gold Arsene

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
30,757
I'm obviously not ok with it. But it's always the same reaction and same replies, and I bet a lot of people here love to showcase "support" by posting on a forum but will be there day one for their latest release. It's hypocritical. Also, crunch happens fucking everywhere in the tech industry. It's a shame but it is what it is. Not buying product or services from these companies won't do shit to change this, as history shows.
I mean it's admittedly pointless in my case as I just don't buy ND games so I was already "boycotting" it I guess.

Still doesn't make your dismissal of a genuine issue any less pathetic.
 

Dennis8K

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
20,161
I have done the equivalent of 10AM to 10 PM (12 hour work days) before (science, not games) and that is OK for a short time.

But fuck me with that 10 AM to 10 AM (24 hours) shit lol. You best be paying $500,000 a year then.
 

Decarb

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,678
It blows my mind that someone in upper management thinks that working someone for 24 hours straight will yield more productive result than splitting it over 3 days of 6 hours. The last 8 hours of those 24 hours, you can throw that work in the dustbin. And the dude is not going to show up next day, not mentally anyway. So you just wasted all that marathon for nothing.
 

HStallion

Member
Oct 25, 2017
62,406
It must suck working crazy crunch at ND and then seeing Media Molecule who have a no crunch rule. Then again very different studios with very different goals but still Sony should be trying to make life more consistently better for all their employees.