• Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.

ket

Member
Jul 27, 2018
12,943
Someone in the Sony gaming OT suggested I make a thread about this recent article that delved into crunch culture at Naughty Dog: https://cogconnected.com/feature/naughty-dog-crunch-game-development-sony-playstation-ps4/

Here's some quotes:

"A normal work week for [QA] was 10 AM-10 PM six days a week and we didn't really have any choice about it," they explained. "Sometimes we'd stay until midnight or 1 am. At the end of [Uncharted 4], we started doing seven day work weeks for a little while and even did some 24 hours shifts where we'd come in at 10 AM and leave 10 AM the next day. I didn't really have a life outside of work for eight to nine months during the big crunch."

"I think this is one of the biggest issues there," [the source] said. "People keep working until 1 AM on these projects and no one from upper management seemed to make even the slightest effort to say that we shouldn't do this."
"I once remember towards the end of crunch," they recalled, "when everyone was struggling, the animation team got an email from one of the animation leads that basically said, and I'm paraphrasing, 'Yeah, obviously the rumors are true. We work hard here at Naughty Dog. But just keep pushing guys! It'll be worth it.'"

"So my take on crunch at Naughty Dog: The truth is more gray than black-and-white," said someone who worked at the studio for several years on multiple recent games. "There is no official mandate for crunch. There can be a significant amount of peer pressure, though. And that can include peer pressure from the people who are effectively your managers. Peer pressure comes from having a team of brilliant, talented, dedicated people working hard on a project together."
 

Strings

Member
Oct 27, 2017
31,381
Schreier's book is great for this (the second chapter is about Naughty Dog).

It's probably the weirdest chapter too, in that like a lot of the linked OP article says, a fair few people over there seem very okay with it / know what they're getting into.
 
Last edited:

Asbsand

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
9,901
Denmark
That's what it takes to deliver top-quality games in those 3-ish year dev cycles. The problem is the health decline and eventual culture damage it seems to cause across studios. You always see high-profile members leave over time and it's clearly because their company don't respect their well being and chance to lead a life outside of work and exploits their sense for quality and talent IMO.
 

Klobrille

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,360
Germany
"A normal work week for [QA] was 10 AM-10 PM six days a week and we didn't really have any choice about it," they explained. "Sometimes we'd stay until midnight or 1 am. At the end of [Uncharted 4], we started doing seven day work weeks for a little while and even did some 24 hours shifts where we'd come in at 10 AM and leave 10 AM the next day. I didn't really have a life outside of work for eight to nine months during the big crunch."
Holy shit. I would be burned out after one week lol

I understand a bit of crunch can be needed prior to certain milestones now and then, but this is ... Just too much.
 

khamakazee

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,937
Sounds like a great place to work to have on your resume but not a place you want to stay at unless you are one of the top people who get recognition.
 

jaekeem

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,743
this industry is so fucking insane

at least in other industries, like banking or law, when you work those ungodly hours you're making a ton of money
 

Natels

Member
Oct 26, 2017
860
So they worked from 10am to 10am then what? Doesn't even make sense to crunch like that.
 

Duffking

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,695
That's what it takes to deliver top-quality games in those 3-ish year dev cycles. The problem is the health decline and eventual culture damage it seems to cause across studios. You always see high-profile members leave over time and it's clearly because their company don't respect their well being and chance to lead a life outside of work and exploits their sense for quality and talent IMO.
Well, not necessarily. I was under the impression that UC4 was one of those games where like 90% of it got shitcanned about 12 months from release and they pushed ahead rather than delay. For a game which doesn't have massively troubled production, it's not really what it takes at all.
 

Majiebeast

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,090
A developer who worked on The Last of Us Part II declined to confirm to COGconnected if Naughty Dog was crunching for the game (out of "professional courtesy") but did say, "Naughty Dog has always been dedicated to make sure developers are not crunching and try to avoid it as much as possible and are always changing that aspect of development style to improve our work-life balance." The source also backed Maximov's comments about crunch not being mandated at Naughty Dog.


When asked if the studio had decided to reduce crunch work hours while working on the highly-anticipated sequel and, if so, what brought about this change, the source answered, "Naughty Dog has always tried its best. Meaning there was no one event, they're always, with every project, working out ways to curtail and avoid crunch as much as possible.
 

RedSparrows

Prophet of Regret
Member
Feb 22, 2019
6,477
Do films have crunch? Trying to think of any other (collaborative) creative endeavour that has crunch built in. I know it can happen in any pursuit, but this feels systematic.
 

chris 1515

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,074
Barcelona Spain
Sounds like a great place to work to have on your resume but not a place you want to stay at unless you are one of the top people who get recognition.

The structure at ND is very horizontal. And they have some prize for people staying in ND(5 years or more...) and people tends to stay very long working there or not staying very long. The peoples likes the recognization of the greatness of the game and some money. And between project they can give more vacation to peoples too. The "burnout" of Bruce Straley came from replacing Amy Henning for UC4 and not be able to have this vacation between two projects...
 

F4raday

Member
Jul 4, 2019
211
That's what it takes to deliver top-quality games in those 3-ish year dev cycles. The problem is the health decline and eventual culture damage it seems to cause across studios. You always see high-profile members leave over time and it's clearly because their company don't respect their well being and chance to lead a life outside of work and exploits their sense for quality and talent IMO.

Nah, that's what it takes to deliver top-quality games in thos 3-ish year dev cycles within restrictive and skewerd budgets, with terrible work ethics and lack of oversight.
 

ShinUltramanJ

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,949
Twelve hour days for a limited time isn't that bad. I understand crunching a bit before a big release, but eight months is too long.

24hrs is just plain crazy. I hope that 24hr shift meant a couple days off afterwards.
 

Com_Raven

Brand Manager
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
1,103
Europa
Hyperbolic replies and "boycott" to TLoU 2 in 3, 2, 1...

And here we see pretty much why stories like these have little effect. Gamers will happily defend any kind of working conditions if they like the studio and games, and will even shit over the work of other developers with a more balanced work-life-balance for not being as passionate and details-focused as Naughty Dog or Rockstar are.
 

keidash

Member
Jan 31, 2018
287
It's completely systemic in this industry, not any other industry has this embedded crunch spirit but most people seem to be ok with it... when I was young I dreamed becoming a developer and now married and with a son I can't think about a closer definition of hell than working in game development...
 

christocolus

Member
Oct 27, 2017
14,932
And here we see pretty much why stories like these have little effect. Gamers will happily defend any kind of working conditions if they like the studio and games, and will even shit over the work of other developers with a more balanced work-life-balance for not being as passionate and details-focused as Naughty Dog or Rockstar are.
True.
 

IIFloodyII

Member
Oct 26, 2017
23,953
Do films have crunch? Trying to think of any other (collaborative) creative endeavour that has crunch built in. I know it can happen in any pursuit, but this feels systematic.
I remember in one of the Game of Thrones BTS videos they talked about how they'd be working day and night for something like 3 weeks on some shoots. So I'd imagine they have crunch, just no where near as long.
 

FelipeMGM

#Skate4
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
3,012
God bless QA staff, always the nastiest stories. It's good that we have articles like this to highlight that working conditions in this industry are far from ideal, and even the most condecorated studios out there need to improve bigtime on their culture. Even though a lot say its not mandatory, the natural peer pressure of beeing in that enviroment shouldnt be an excuse for extensive crunch.
 

Twenty7kvn

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
1,749
Do films have crunch? Trying to think of any other (collaborative) creative endeavour that has crunch built in. I know it can happen in any pursuit, but this feels systematic.
All industries have "crunch" if you have to make a deadline they have crunch. I remember i was working at a printing company in the early 2000's and we had a large printing job that had to get done and i worked a 24 hour shift, first time i did that but our bosses did give us the next day off tho.
 

Klobrille

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,360
Germany
And here we see pretty much why stories like these have little effect. Gamers will happily defend any kind of working conditions if they like the studio and games, and will even shit over the work of other developers with a more balanced work-life-balance for not being as passionate and details-focused as Naughty Dog or Rockstar are.
.
 

Premium

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
836
NC
Terrible working conditions. Perhaps Sony needs to step in and discuss adjustments with the ND leadership team in order to protect the workers.

Hopefully fans will acknowledge these issues and respond with their wallets when TLoU2 arrives. Be the change you want to see guys!
 

SleepSmasher

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,094
Australia
So you think this is ok?


It's ok for people to not like your favorite studio. The Last of Us 2 will still make all the money and this bullshit will continue don't worry.
Why do you think it's hyperbolic? Because it's naughty dog?
I doubt it, more like double standards.
So, you don't think this is a big deal, huh?

That's fucked up.
That's your take away from this? You're worried more about the reaction than the actual workers at ND.
I'm obviously not ok with it. But it's always the same reaction and same replies, and I bet a lot of people here love to showcase "support" by posting on a forum but will be there day one for their latest release. It's hypocritical. Also, crunch happens fucking everywhere in the tech industry. It's a shame but it is what it is. Not buying product or services from these companies won't do shit to change this, as history shows.
 

ThreepQuest64

Avenger
Oct 29, 2017
5,735
Germany
There can be a significant amount of peer pressure, though.
This is real. Of course you could say "fuck what others think of me," but companies being companies and departments being departments it can get really nasty for you. There's a reason why people often pretend they're drowning in work even when they have less stuff on their desk. You don't want to look bad, so you either pretend or indeed work your ass off to unhealthy degrees. This is not game industry exclusive, though.
 

woolyninja

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,028
I'm getting a little tired of these articles acting like the gaming industry is the only tech job that has crunch culture. Every company I've worked at for 20+ years has lots of people who work well into the night. This is a social issue where working long hours = dedication to the job and a hard worker. In reality it usually means poor time management.
 

Strings

Member
Oct 27, 2017
31,381
Do films have crunch? Trying to think of any other (collaborative) creative endeavour that has crunch built in. I know it can happen in any pursuit, but this feels systematic.
When shooting, you have really strict union shit that mandates how many hours you can keep people. It's a lot different when it comes to meeting deadlines in pre and post production though, where there is a fuckton of crunch. I'm pretty confident that nothing is as bad as VFX studios though, those are a fucking nightmare from what I hear.