Native Americans really didn't stood a chance againts conquistadores - or the underrated Portuguese might.

[Sqrt]

I did not expect this to take it this badly. My intention was not glorify or making an statement of why European were superior. I was just trying to make some perspective. I never said that portugal were better, smarter or better men in any other. Due to historical circumstances, including the fall of Constantinople by the Ottomans, they had better technology. Their armor was better, their pikes slightly longer and their cannons had more range.

Since this was taken so badly, I'm retracting my post.

 

[EMT0]

This post is ridiculous and shows zero understanding of history. Do you know why the Portuguese had such success in the Indian Ocean against the Ottomans?

Because the Ottoman Empire was a Mediterranean empire and didn't even have a coastline on the Indian Ocean until 1534

 

[Aaronrules380]

Am I the only one getting racist vibes from this topic. Like "Native Americans could've won if they were as competent as these Europeans fighting this Muslim empire". Especially since you've failed to give any of the other context surrounding the situations, like how the Portuguese won those battles in the first place.

 

[Fugu]

Smallpox killed millions in these regions. It devastated the entire society. This makes the question you're posing basically unanswerable because that factor is impossible to control for.

For what it's worth, the argument you're making could be applied more or less equally to the settler experience with the so-called Plains Indians, which took over a century of protracted and bloody conflict to subdue despite a serious disadvantage in technology and manpower.

 

[TeenageFBI]

Am I the only one getting racist vibes from this topic.

Click to shrink...

You are not the only one.

 

[Pall Mall]

This is some Jared Diamond guns germs and steel poppycock history.

Man before the college level we really teach history like absolute dogshit. And pop history really doesn't help.

 

[Sqrt]

This post is ridiculous and shows zero understanding of history. Do you know why the Portuguese had such success in the Indian Ocean against the Ottomans?

Because the Ottoman Empire was a Mediterranean empire and didn't even have a coastline on the Indian Ocean until 1534

Click to shrink...

I mentioned the Indian Ocean kingdoms mostly in my post. Cutting our the Ottomans from trade in the Indian ocean (directly or indirectly through muslim kingdoms) there was one of their main motivations. And the Portuguese did attack deeper into the middle east from their positions in the Indian ocean.

 

[meowdi gras]

I think the OP shoulda stood in bed.

 

[Fugu]

Am I the only one getting racist vibes from this topic.

Click to shrink...

No you are not.

 

[Mesoian]

I mean...

I think it had more to do with the guerilla attacks caused by the Spanish and Portuguese navys, where they'd basically crash up on the shore, ask for help, and then slaughter towns and villages when they were given aid. That, paired with the slave trade's absolute lust to abduct entire settlements for quick cash are the ACTUAL reasons why the Native Americans all along the southern coast line never stood a chance. They were never at war, it was just a constant pillage.

 

[Sqrt]

Am I the only one getting racist vibes from this topic. Like "Native Americans could've won if they were as competent as these Europeans fighting this Muslim empire". Especially since you've failed to give any of the other context surrounding the situations, like how the Portuguese won those battles in the first place.

Click to shrink...

How so? The Iberians were in a different stage of development than the other nations. Why is that racist?

 

[Mesoian]

This is some Jared Diamond guns germs and steel poppycock history.

Man before the college level we really teach history like absolute dogshit. And pop history really doesn't help.

Click to shrink...

To be fair, most of the history of the southern natives have been almost completely erased, so...it's hard to teach.

 

[Nephtes]

This post reads like something I read on ERA this weekend:

Even NBA benchwarmers are ungodly basketball players

https://www.si.com/extra-mustard/2021/03/24/brian-scalabrine-pickup-basketball-high-schooler-video Sports fans already know is, but it's always interesting seeing this is action. NBA and WNBA are always getting challenged for 1:1s as well. People are delusional lol...

www.resetera.com

Just sub out "Portugal" for "NBA benchwarmers" and "indigenous peoples conquerors" for "Basketball players"...

 

[Aaronrules380]

How so? The Iberians were in a different stage of development than the other nations. Why is that racist.

Click to shrink...

Because your comparisons seem incredibly superficial, and seem to exist to glorify the accomplishments of a group of white people at the expense of native Americans?

 

[ReginaldXIV]

Am I the only one getting racist vibes from this topic. Like "Native Americans could've won if they were as competent as these Europeans fighting this Muslim empire". Especially since you've failed to give any of the other context surrounding the situations, like how the Portuguese won those battles in the first place.

Click to shrink...

Getting that vibe too, you're not alone.

 

[rras1994]

Smallpox killed millions in these regions. It devastated the entire society. This makes the question you're posing basically unanswerable because that factor is impossible to control for.

For what it's worth, the argument you're making could be applied more or less equally to the settler experience with the so-called Plains Indians, which took over a century of protracted and bloody conflict to subdue despite a serious disadvantage in technology and manpower.

Click to shrink...

Like estimates think something like 90% of the population - that's worse than the Black Death. OP's bragging about the Portugese defeating a people who were devasted and brought to their knees by a plague that those very people brought with them. This is just a gross thread.

 

[Tabaxi]

This is so egregiously wrong and filled with colonialist misinformation it has to be a troll post.

 

[Pirateluigi]

This is some Jared Diamond guns germs and steel poppycock history.

Man before the college level we really teach history like absolute dogshit. And pop history really doesn't help.

Click to shrink...

I'm pretty sure even Jared Diamond would disagree with the OP on this one.

 

[Sqrt]

Because your comparisons seem incredibly superficial, and seem to exist to glorify the accomplishments of a group of white people at the expense of native Americans?

Click to shrink...

I'm not glorifying anything. My aim was to put into perspective the treat that the native american were facing by explaining how a comparable power did against more advanced cultures.

 

[Eila]

I understand that at a least in Mexico the Tlaxcalteca and other surrounding Aztec enemies really did the hard work. And smallpox.

 

[Mekanos]

Love to make threads about how mighty and strong the European colonizers were

 

[EMT0]

I mentioned the Indian Ocean kingdoms mostly in my post. Cutting our the Ottomans from trade in the Indian ocean (directly or indirectly through muslim kingdoms) there was one of their main motivations. And the Portuguese did attack deeper into the middle east from their positions in the Indian ocean.

Click to shrink...

You should also have the decency to add more context to your post then and actually explain why the Portuguese got away with what they did instead of some glorifying bullshit to pat Portugal on the back. And that's BEFORE I touch on your ridiculous claims on the New World empires because oh buddy do I have paragraphs on paragraphs for you.

For the unaware Era posters, the Portuguese had the luxury of sitting at the ass end of the Silk Road meaning they were upcharged out the ass on trade, while also being far removed from major military conflicts. This allowed them to spend the better part of a century on naval advancements so as to circumvent Muslim trade routes across the Sahara.

This led to Portuguese voyages first into West Africa and then later to India once they realized they had the capability of it. Once in the Indian Ocean they found that they had by far the only real means to engage in naval warfare, with almost all ocean-going vessels meant for transportation or for crossing the distance into melee combat(akin to Roman galley combat in the Mediterranean).

So the Portuguese used this opportunity to set up a giant racketeering operation. You either pay your 'protection' money, or your ships get sunk. The Portuguese did this throughout the Indian Ocean and quickly started making beaucoup bucks by acting like glorified pirates. Portuguese became loathed as nuisances or parasites throughout the region for that reason.

Portugal also took advantage of this to seize coastal cities that were naturally fortified towards land(that's where all the enemies historically came from), but not for the seas. So it became a very straightforward operation for Portugal to seize lands such as these because toppling cities without defences aimed at their specialty(the seas) was trivial, especially to then reinforce existing fortifications towards land-based attacks.

So go on OP. Tell us more about how the magical Iberians were ubersmench

 

[Richter1887]

 

[Sander VF]

The real reason the Americas got conquered the way they were was because of the diseases the Europeans brought with them causing a fucking apocalypse.

The vast majority of the population of the americas was dead by the time colonization was underway. So many native Americans died from diseases, it caused a fucking Little Ice Age.

The loss of the population was so high that it was partially responsible for the myth of the Americas as "virgin wilderness." By the time significant European colonization was underway, native populations had already been reduced by 90%. This resulted in settlements vanishing and cultivated fields being abandoned. Since forests were recovering, the colonists had an impression of a land that was an untamed wilderness.[SUP][44][/SUP]

Click to shrink...

90 percent.

Ninety

Percent

 

[TheSkullPrince]

Those European colonizers don't get enough credit! Can't believe they don't get their just due in history books!

 

[LukeOP]

I hate how North American and in general all of the native populations in the Americas are misrepresented. The western cultures had invaded these ancient civilizations during a down peak in their culture. Face them at their full strength at the time Europe was in the dark ages? The Europeans wouldn't stand a chance.

 

[Aaronrules380]

You should also have the decency to add more context to your post then and actually explain why the Portuguese got away with what they did instead of some glorifying bullshit to pat Portugal on the back. And that's BEFORE I touch on your ridiculous claims on the New World empires because oh buddy do I have paragraphs on paragraphs for you.

For the unaware Era posters, the Portuguese had the luxury of sitting at the ass end of the Silk Road meaning they were upcharged out the ass on trade, while also being far removed from major military conflicts. This allowed them to spend the better part of a century on naval advancements so as to circumvent Muslim trade routes across the Sahara.

This led to Portuguese voyages first into West Africa and then later to India once they realized they had the capability of it. Once in the Indian Ocean they found that they had by far the only real means to engage in naval warfare, with almost all ocean-going vessels meant for transportation or for crossing the distance into melee combat(akin to Roman galley combat in the Mediterranean).

So the Portuguese used this opportunity to set up a giant racketeering operation. You either pay your 'protection' money, or your ships get sunk. The Portuguese did this throughout the Indian Ocean and quickly started making beaucoup bucks by acting like glorified pirates. Portuguese became loathed as nuisances or parasites throughout the region for that reason.

Portugal also took advantage of this to seize coastal cities that were naturally fortified towards land(that's where all the enemies historically came from), but not for the seas. So it became a very straightforward operation for Portugal to seize lands such as these because toppling cities without defences aimed at their specialty(the seas) was trivial, especially to then reinforce existing fortifications towards land-based attacks.

So go on OP. Tell us more about how the magical Iberians were ubersmench

Click to shrink...

Yeah, even looking at the wikipedia stats they showed I had a feeling it was a result of the portuguese being better equipped for Navel warfare (note literally all their forces are recorded as ships) which means a bunch of the tech advantages the OP was going on about were literally irrelevant since they were only useful in a land battle

 

[Palette Swap]

I can't tell where you're going with this but eh.

Anyway, your OP was moot by 1531.

 

[HockeyBird]

What?

 

[Hellwarden]

What...what are we talking about here OP?

 

[Lulu]

those natives sure got pwned

 

[Sabretooth]

Well, there is still the germs issue, but at least the Aztecs and Incans could have won the first battles and buy some time if they had some horses and cannons of their own, right?

Click to shrink...

Even apart from the racist thrust of this thread, this sentence alone is making my brain hurt so much that OP owes me a painkiller.

 

[Richter1887]

I am not even sure what you are trying to do with this thread but you really should have thought more before making this topic.

 

[trashbandit]

I'm pretty sure smallpox was the actual reason Europeans had an easy go at colonization.

 

[TheSkullPrince]

If the Conquistadors wouldn't have taken out the Aztecs, enslaved them, raped them, and killed off 90% of them from disease theyhad no immunity to then those plucky underdog Portuguese sure would have! Thanks for such insightful knowledge OP!

 

[echoshifting]

Yeah, it was the European germs. Take another look, in every single case, it's germs

 

[Mesoian]

You should also have the decency to add more context to your post then and actually explain why the Portuguese got away with what they did instead of some glorifying bullshit to pat Portugal on the back. And that's BEFORE I touch on your ridiculous claims on the New World empires because oh buddy do I have paragraphs on paragraphs for you.

For the unaware Era posters, the Portuguese had the luxury of sitting at the ass end of the Silk Road meaning they were upcharged out the ass on trade, while also being far removed from major military conflicts. This allowed them to spend the better part of a century on naval advancements so as to circumvent Muslim trade routes across the Sahara.

This led to Portuguese voyages first into West Africa and then later to India once they realized they had the capability of it. Once in the Indian Ocean they found that they had by far the only real means to engage in naval warfare, with almost all ocean-going vessels meant for transportation or for crossing the distance into melee combat(akin to Roman galley combat in the Mediterranean).

So the Portuguese used this opportunity to set up a giant racketeering operation. You either pay your 'protection' money, or your ships get sunk. The Portuguese did this throughout the Indian Ocean and quickly started making beaucoup bucks by acting like glorified pirates. Portuguese became loathed as nuisances or parasites throughout the region for that reason.

Portugal also took advantage of this to seize coastal cities that were naturally fortified towards land(that's where all the enemies historically came from), but not for the seas. So it became a very straightforward operation for Portugal to seize lands such as these because toppling cities without defences aimed at their specialty(the seas) was trivial, especially to then reinforce existing fortifications towards land-based attacks.

So go on OP. Tell us more about how the magical Iberians were ubersmench

Click to shrink...

On top of this, when it came time to actually break land on the America's, the Portuguese military often bumbled through inclimate terrain in hopes of establishing contact with natives without any sort of navigate or fall back plan. The result were expeditions into overgrown Florida, Louisiana, Texas, where teams of 40-50 would go in, and 2 would return. As I stated before, the lion's share of routing the Portuguese managed to do was usually due to the peaceful intervention of natives, their kindness returned with bloodshed and slavery.

There's a running gag in world history, at least world history to about 500 AD that goes, "You should just leave those white people alone, they'll fuck themselves up if you let them".

 

[Chikor]

Those European colonizers don't get enough credit! Can't believe they don't get their just due in history books!

Click to shrink...

The Portuguese dig genocide in both south America and Africa but they almost never get the credit!

 

[Forerunner]

OP really didn't stood a chance againts internets - or the underrated ERA might.

 

[B-Dubs]

This is being locked because it's in crazy poor taste.