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Natalie Holt (musician who did the Star Wars: Obi-Wan Kenobi score) addresses the relative lack of legacy themes in the series
- Thread starter DiipuSurotu
- Start date
- Spoiler Entertainment Video/Streaming
Wow, her work on Loki was so good.
The Obi-Wan soundtrack did not compare at all.
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TROS trailers and TV spots also had better music than the actual film lol
Anyone saying that none or even most of the post -Disney Star Wars scores aren't good or memorable has some big "bitch eating crackers" syndrome
This. Rey's theme is on equal footing with Williams' classics.
Not a fan of the new trilogy as films, but the score on all them are really underrated.
I really need to push back on the idea that because something isn't hummable like a Street Fighter 2 tune doesn't mean it's good or memorable.
Look at Howard Shore's Silence Of The Lambs, has sections that aren't short enough to be hummable by the average person, yet a very memorable soundtrack. Same goes for his LOTR OST.
Look at Howard Shore's Silence Of The Lambs, has sections that aren't short enough to be hummable by the average person, yet a very memorable soundtrack. Same goes for his LOTR OST.
John Williams undoubtedly did better and more iconic work for the prequels than the sequels, but let's not forget that he was ~67 when he did TPM and ~82 when he did TFA. I realise inspiration doesn't necessarily follow a linear path, but you can't expect him to keep putting of work of the same astounding quality as his prequel work again and again.
For what it's worth, a never really liked Rey's theme too much. Sounds like something more suited to Harry Potter. For me, Duel of the Fates and Anakin's Dark Deeds are better examples of how you can broaden Star Wars' sonic palette and still have something that feels fresh and recognisably like Star Wars.
I say this as someone who likes the first two films of the ST and thinks the PT is mostly garbage.
As for Obi Wan Kenobi's score, it was generic, low budget nothingness. Why did they have to ask permission to use Williams' iconic themes? Even random games use the music liberally.
For what it's worth, a never really liked Rey's theme too much. Sounds like something more suited to Harry Potter. For me, Duel of the Fates and Anakin's Dark Deeds are better examples of how you can broaden Star Wars' sonic palette and still have something that feels fresh and recognisably like Star Wars.
I say this as someone who likes the first two films of the ST and thinks the PT is mostly garbage.
As for Obi Wan Kenobi's score, it was generic, low budget nothingness. Why did they have to ask permission to use Williams' iconic themes? Even random games use the music liberally.
Is "Asking John Williams for permission" a recent thing or something? Because I don't remember usage of Williams' themes was such a big deal before. I mean, every single Star Wars videogame used stuff from the Star Wars movie soundtracks. I doubt that for every game they called Williams to ask if he was okay with using the songs.
This whole "We don't know if we have permission"-thing is super odd. Surely Disney/Lucasfilm owns the rights.
This whole "We don't know if we have permission"-thing is super odd. Surely Disney/Lucasfilm owns the rights.
You have to remember that part of what makes you think the music is "good" is tied to the fact that what you were seeing was good. And not to mention that you've seen these movies 100 times, and heard the music in countless games over and over. Add that to the fact that stylistically most of John Williams's music is very similar. So movies like Indiana Jones, E.T., Jaws, and Super Man all have similar themes to Star Wars. I'd be willing to bet most people only remember one theme from Jaws (as you've seen it the least). It isn't that you remember them because John Williams is good, but because the movies are damn good as well and all tied to a certain era of film. Though, he is good.
That is what makes it even more insane they don't just take his scores and use them intermittently in the new shows. Why not? You are using everything else from the movies. It is literally banking on nostalgia. Can you imagine if Nintendo tried to make any of their Mario or Zelda games without the old themes? They literally run on nostalgia fuel. Stop trying to pretend Star Wars is anything more than that.
That is what makes it even more insane they don't just take his scores and use them intermittently in the new shows. Why not? You are using everything else from the movies. It is literally banking on nostalgia. Can you imagine if Nintendo tried to make any of their Mario or Zelda games without the old themes? They literally run on nostalgia fuel. Stop trying to pretend Star Wars is anything more than that.
This is all so frustrating to me. If Williams really has final say on whether Disney gets to use his themes, that's a completely untenable situation. I don't think the Kenobi show needed wall to wall Williams music, but even as little as just 15-30 seconds of classic themes per episode would've helped a lot, in my opinion.
I imagine this is not a legal issue, but more of "we shouldn't make Williams unhappy' kind of thing. From my understanding this might largely stem from some disagreements around the Rogue One soundtrack, which Williams apparently was very unhappy with at first, to the point that they had to make some big large minute changes. Williams was also reportedly angry about not being offered the job of scoring that movie.
Also, bizarrely, Williams now somehow has more creative control over the music in projects he's not the primary composer of, than the ones he actually scored. Since Lucas, Abrams and other Star Wars directors has always been free to cut up his music as much as they wanted to fit the overall movie they were making.
I do wonder, though, if this is gonna lead to a case where Williams' estate is making these kinds of decisions, which I think would be even weirder than where we're at now. It's also all so weirdly arbitrary, since they're apparently free to use the themes in animation and video games as much as they want.
At least I can stop being frustrated with Deborah Cho's and Natalie Holt's decisions regarding the music in Kenobi, and instead direct my frustration towards Williams, where they clearly belong.
I imagine this is not a legal issue, but more of "we shouldn't make Williams unhappy' kind of thing. From my understanding this might largely stem from some disagreements around the Rogue One soundtrack, which Williams apparently was very unhappy with at first, to the point that they had to make some big large minute changes. Williams was also reportedly angry about not being offered the job of scoring that movie.
Also, bizarrely, Williams now somehow has more creative control over the music in projects he's not the primary composer of, than the ones he actually scored. Since Lucas, Abrams and other Star Wars directors has always been free to cut up his music as much as they wanted to fit the overall movie they were making.
I do wonder, though, if this is gonna lead to a case where Williams' estate is making these kinds of decisions, which I think would be even weirder than where we're at now. It's also all so weirdly arbitrary, since they're apparently free to use the themes in animation and video games as much as they want.
At least I can stop being frustrated with Deborah Cho's and Natalie Holt's decisions regarding the music in Kenobi, and instead direct my frustration towards Williams, where they clearly belong.
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yeah I was annoyed by the lack of imperial march, but when I saw it all play out... it was wonderful saving it for the very end.
I don't really think it's her fault. Her music for Loki was absolutely incredible.
The problem with Obi-Wan is that the source material is so bland and generic there wasn't much of anything to squeeze out of it musically.
You're encapsulating perfectly my complaints as well. She's a great composer but her score here sucks and REALLY brought down the show at times. I've seen several rescores for the pivotal scenes and it's a tragedy how much her music lessened the impacts.
This certainly makes her job harder but it doesn't excuse the score we got. There are plenty of shitty movies/shows out there that have fantastic scores. Lady in the Water is my favorite example.
Jerry Goldsmith made a career out of making great scores for underwhelming movies.
But the prequels were bland too, and it JW produced (probably) his best work for SW.
Exactly this. The lack of themes would be forgivable if the original material wasn't so bland and generic. It's a workmanlike score that shows zero passion for the material.
It's particularly baffling because her score for Loki was incredibly distinctive and otherworldly.
I think the problem is just that modern Disney Wars, as a film universe, just doesn't have the kind of flexibility or creative wackiness necessary to pull off something like the blending of the Loki theme with Flight of the Valkyries from the penultimate episode of Loki.
It's just a bland universe run by boring people who want everything to be as safe as possible. And considering the point of comparison I'm making here is Marvel, which is also known for being extremely safe, that speaks to just how bland Star Wars has become.
That's not entirely what I mean. I'm saying that creatively, modern Star Wars is so fucking bankrupt and empty that it's literally holding back the people who could make it better.
Correct.
A galaxy to explore and everything is focused around one family and a few desert planets.
If they couldn't use the Williams stuff, they should've followed his 1977 example and riffed on Holst.
Nothing official, but I've seen it referenced several times the last few years by people seemingly in the know.
For example, here's Doug Adams (music journalist and author) mentioning it on Twitter yesterday:
George Lucas himself requested that the force theme not be over used
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I don't mind if they don't use legacy themes but I would like more prevalence given to scores like they used to. The scores user to soar in and around the visuals and now everyone seems to try to hide them underneath the film or show.
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Time constraints might be a factor explaining the quality difference between Loki and Obi-Wan Kenobi:
‘Obi-Wan Kenobi’ Composer Breaks Down Her ‘Star Wars’ Sound and Reveals Cherished John Williams’ Gift
On the heels of the Disney+ series' official trailer, Natalie Holt discusses building new themes for planets and Stormtroopers and where she falls in the canon of 'Star Wars' composers.
www.hollywoodreporter.com
I find it jarring without them and I never got tired of it personally.
Nailed it.
Easily the worst soundtrack for any Star Wars film/television project, so much of it feels like stock or placeholder tracks to convey the tone of a scene before things are locked down with the final score. It really undercuts a series that could have really used a boost to try and elevate the (mostly) underwhelming story beats.
I just played enough Galactic Battlegrounds that everything used in that game is now more associated with it than the actual movies.
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My kid has this toy "Dino car" that plays a song that has all of the notes from the Jurrassic Park theme, but arranged differently and in a different order. Like a bootleg Jurassic Park toy.
The whole time watching the show, the music reminded me of that toy.
The whole time watching the show, the music reminded me of that toy.
So I'm not against the fanfare not being used for every Star Wars Fame but something like Fallen Order or that KOTOR remake could do with one. I really liked them for the various class stories in SWTOR
I mean the freaking "kids cartoon" Rebels went so much harder on even the original bits of its soundtrack compared to the biggest show on Disney+
In addition to the fact that they aren't putting out any Star Wars movies so these shows are STAR WARS and they released it with that pathetic nothingness
Kanan and the Fire | Star Wars: Rebels Season 4 OST
In their attempt to escape from Lothal's capital, Kanan sacrifices himself to save his family.Music composed by Kevin Kiner. Star Wars: Rebels belongs to Luc...
youtu.be
Star Wars Rebels Season 2 OST - Journey Into the Star Cluster
By Kevin KinerSTAR WARS REBELS - SEASON 2, EPISODE 14, LEGENDS OF THE LASAT
youtu.be
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Oh interesting. I loved the Loki score and can't remember much about the Kenobi score.
Rey's theme and the March of the resistence are superb tracks, also Obi Wan's theme is so good, all done by John Williams, in fact I really lack his work in the sequels.
Mando's and Boba's themes are awesome, both done by Ludwig Goranson.
Basically eveything that WIlliams and Goranson have done in the DIsney era has been good to great.
I totally agree with this. Michael Giacchino's Rogue One score has some great leitmotifs as well. His Imperial theme and Stardust are both really good.
Giacchino's work has been disappointing me since after Star Trek into de darkness (in my subjective opinion his last great work), not that I think he has done bad music, just that it hasn't been as great as his past works, especially not as great as what he did on LOST.
I didn't hate Rogue One's score, I just think it was close to greatness but failed to achieve it, even though I loved his track when Vader is in the hallway, but I can't exactly complain abotu that socre given he had less than 5 weeks to work on it.
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That's fair. I agree that Rogue One's score isn't GREAT, but I do think it has some memorable stuff.
Honestly it can't be understated that they went ham with rebels. Like a character's introduction was some shit straight out of dark souls
and the slow buildup during this scene is simply a chef's kiss.
So much that it's instantly recognizable
Like I can never cosign the opinion that SW under Disney doesn't have memorable music.
