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Xaszatm

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,903
No, what she said is better than the truth: "If we begin impeachment precedings and it backfires, we've lost 2020".
"He's not worth it" is understandable even by the most ignorant voter.

...You do know I said I agree with her right?

But no, it's not, clearly from this thread it is not understandable. Because a lot of people are angry. A lot of it justifiable anger. Her statement leaves them with no where to direct that anger so it ends wrongly up back at her. That's why I'm saying it's a poor saying of the argument. She needs to channel that anger to the right sources: the Republicans in the Senate and the Presidency. Get people fired up and take their anger in the direction that will help the party.
 

Aaron

I’m seeing double here!
Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,077
Minneapolis
User Warned: Antagonizing other members over a series of posts
Last edited:

Deleted member 31923

User requested account closure
Banned
Nov 8, 2017
5,826
Wait for the Mueller report. It could have findings so bad that they force your hand at impeachment. Or it may be anti-climatic, and impeachment wouldn't be worth it, especially since he's unlikely to ever get removed in the Senate unless you have something so blatant like the Watergate tapes.
 

Deleted member 17092

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
20,360
With the evidence available right now, we'd be lucky to get 3 GOP votes in the senate. It's a non-starter. Until/unless a smoking (smocking) gun is found, there's no point in starting a fight you're guaranteed to lose, IMO.

I mean, there are smoking guns regarding campaign finance violations, insurance fraud, emoluments violations, charity fraud, inauguration committee fraud, etc.

But yeah I think for a sizable amount of GOP folks to even consider conviction you need conspiracy against the united states, I don't think even obstruction get them there. It should, but yeah it probably won't. Kind of weird to obstruct an investigation into a non-existent conspiracy though.
 

dabig2

Member
Oct 29, 2017
5,116
Before I rant about Pelosi pulling another '06, I just want to say that I settled in for the long game a while ago. There will be investigations going on long after Trump's stolen presidency is finally ended. Don't really care much about Mueller or his report or impeachment because...I want it all - all of Trump's companies, his organization, his family, his friends, and his lackeys to lose it all. And I know that is going to take years.


Anyways, Pelosi fucked up with her statements. The takeaway from any talk about impeachment should be highlighting how the Republicans won't allow it because they're complicit too and are also a threat to our democracy. Tie them and Trump together in a nice shit bow.
Also, throw away any words referencing "bipartisanship". It's a poisonous word after the Obama years; in fact at this point, it's a dogwhistle for "politics as usual" - populists like Trump and his sycophant party love it when the issue is distilled to that with the added bonus of it deflating the hope of liberals.

There's an immeasurable number of ways of re-phrasing her entire speech without gaslighting the country into accepting this new normal of fuckery, but she chose the one that now focuses all of the attention on her and Dem leaders instead of on the republicans acting like (and some literally being) traitors who are stalling every investigation and literally becoming the party of crime.

Similar shit that happened during the shutdown. It was the people that finally forced the hands of republicans, not Pelosi and especially not our shit media who just presented it as Trump vs Pelosi/Schumer. We will lose every time that happens if the message is reduced to that. Stop giving the Republican politicians an easy out. Stop normalizing their despicable behavior. Make them fight for it at least, instead of ceding ground and just tossing your hands up in the air and basically saying "not my problem, blame the people".

Democrats will keep losing when they keep treating the GOP as a legitimate party with actual serious ideas and beliefs that Democrats should keep trying to caress over treating them like a crime syndicate.

And even though I said I don't really care about impeachment today vs later vs never, I still have yet to see an honest sensible rebuttal to anything in this (massive) article from TheAtlantic which makes the argument that impeachment proceedings starting now might work out well:

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2019/03/impeachment-trump/580468/
[...]

After the house impeaches a president, the Constitution requires a two-thirds majority in the Senate to remove him from office. Opponents of impeachment point out that, despite the greater severity of the prospective charges against Trump, there is little reason to believe the Senate is more likely to remove him than it was to remove Clinton. Indeed, the Senate's Republican majority has shown little will to break with the president—though that may change. The process of impeachment itself is likely to shift public opinion, both by highlighting what's already known and by bringing new evidence to light. If Trump's support among Republican voters erodes, his support in the Senate may do the same. One lesson of Richard Nixon's impeachment is that when legislators conclude a presidency is doomed, they can switch allegiances in the blink of an eye.


But this sort of vote-counting, in any case, misunderstands the point of impeachment. The question of whether impeachment is justified should not be confused with the question of whether it is likely to succeed in removing a president from office. The country will benefit greatly regardless of how the Senate ultimately votes. Even if the impeachment of Donald Trump fails to produce a conviction in the Senate, it can safeguard the constitutional order from a president who seeks to undermine it. The protections of the process alone are formidable. They come in five distinct forms.

The first is that once an impeachment inquiry begins, the president loses control of the public conversation. Andrew Johnson, Richard Nixon, and Bill Clinton each discovered this, much to their chagrin. Johnson, the irascible Tennessee Democrat who succeeded to the presidency in 1865 upon the assassination of Abraham Lincoln, quickly found himself at odds with the Republican Congress. He shattered precedents by delivering a series of inflammatory addresses that dominated the headlines and forced his opponents into a reactive posture. The launching of impeachment inquiries changed that. Day after day, Congress held hearings. Day after day, newspapers splashed the proceedings across their front pages. Instead of focusing on Johnson's fearmongering, the press turned its attention to the president's missteps, to the infighting within his administration, and to all the things that congressional investigators believed he had done wrong.


It isn't just the coverage that changes. When presidents face the prospect of impeachment, they tend to discover a previously unsuspected capacity for restraint and compromise, at least in public. They know that their words can be used against them, so they fume in private. Johnson's calls for the hanging of his political opponents yielded quickly to promises to defer to their judgment on the key questions of the day. Nixon raged to his aides, but tried to show a different face to the country. "Dignity, command, faith, head high, no fear, build a new spirit," he told himself. Clinton sent bare-knuckled proxies to the television-news shows, but he and his staff chose their own words carefully.

[...]
 

Damerman

Banned
Jun 9, 2018
850
I love everyone trying to rationalize this grotesque statement. This thread can be really good material in a psychology case study in regarding to how people overlook flaws in systems/people that they are invested in vs those that are considered outsiders.
Lol if you think people like the way the senate is run, ur mistaken. Please come back to reality, like the rest of us "grotesque statement rationalizers"
 

marrec

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
6,775
This forum by and large gave no shits. Most of the recent thread was trans posters dismayed at how no one really cared. The media gave no shits either. A lot of orgs gave no shits. Instead , as far as the conversation online or in the media goes, everyone was focused on how much Omar pissed off the centrists who tried to get at her and how she deserved backlach/didn't deserve it. No other issue, trans rights or others, really mattered at the time to anyone partaking in the conversation.

And there's a consistent history of trans rights getting tossed to the side for one reason or another. Be it in the discourse or policy discussed by politicians.

You're hyper-focused on finding evidence that supports your hypothesis but ignoring evidence that contradicts it. Yes, clearly some people don't care about trans rights. A lot of people on this forum are apathetic toward trans rights, and a lot of people in general, however as a whole the democratic party definitely cares because of the activities of various organizations and local governments. You keep bringing up the Omar debacle as if people cannot care about more than one thing at once. Clearly they can, and clearly people can think Omar was being anti-semitic while also caring about trans right. While they were debating about the exactly language to include in the "we rebuke hate" resolution, they held multiple hearings on various issues and passed other bills to progress the rights of multiple groups including trans people. This is just at the national legislative level, which doesn't take into account the actions of various local governments or even the actions of various civil rights groups. A person can think Omar was 100% correct while NOT caring about trans rights. Each person is going to have different levels of "give-a-shit" based their own morals and how each issue affects them personally.

I personally wish trans rights were tied inexorably to human rights, but that isn't the current political will of our nation as a whole unfortunately and all we can do is continue to bring more attention to these issues until the political will is there.
 

Fluffhead14

Member
Oct 27, 2017
711
i mean, she's not wrong that it should take something absolutely compelling and serious to impeach a president. she probably should have steered more into "unfortunately it appears regardless of the threat this president represents to the american people, we likely will not have the numbers in the senate due to republicans' being complicit".

because they don't, and they won't, unless something breaks that is so absolutely mortifying that it threatens republicans' jobs en masse.
 

Commedieu

Banned
Nov 11, 2017
15,025
ThiThis5c
If you think working with the system isn't applicable to throwing Trump out of office all you've left with is violent rebellion and civil war.
The odds of Pelosi impeaching Trump are incredibly higher than this insurgent group starting, btw. They've had numerous chances to appear since Trump was elected, and here we stand without their presence. So it falls once again for Pelosi and the Democrats to clean this mess up by default.



Unless you know something Pelosi doesn't about switching Republicans into voting for an impeachment, yes, this is all we can do. Pelosi is trying, you're just ignoring the fact she's being hindered by reality of how the process works - which even as Speaker limits what she's able to do.


For a country so prideful about its Patriotism, its pathetic to see that no one can rustle any jimmies due to one side abiding by rules, while the other steals votes kills people, and is likely compromised by their own greed/russia. There is a spectrum, civil war shouldn't be a bad thing if it needs to happen because of tyranny. The country that spends the most on defense as a preventative measure, is full of feckless citizens who sit and watch all of this happen while filling out forms that aren't counted on purpose. And they know this.

Other nations massively protesting in streets to oust leaders. Or Traffic controllers stopping to work for a few hours, to change the will of leadership. Which was amazing. It wasn't done via negotiation, as the jackass is going to try it again... But that day the citizens sent a message. That is what turned the tide, not gifs of clapping.
 

LinktothePastGOAT

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,879
You should probably reread the string of one line posts you made and what you were quoting before calling me dense, you dick.

Yea, I just did and stand by my post. You conflate Bush lying to start the Iraq war with a smoking gun to lead to impeachment. Guess you dont know what a smoking gun is. Perhaps you should research what it took for Republicans to support removing Nixon even though Dean testified about Nixon committing obstruction and other crimes. Then come back.
 

M.Bluth

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,246
Yea, I just did and stand by my post. You conflate Bush lying to start the Iraq war with a smoking gun to lead to impeachment. Guess you dont know what a smoking gun is. Perhaps you should research what it took for Republicans to support removing Nixon even though Dean testified about Nixon committing obstruction and other crimes. Then come back.
If you actually read what Ichthyosaurus and I were talking about then you would've known that as to Bush we weren't talking about impeachment but about a post-presidency investigation. You're the one who went all no smoking gun like a blabbering idiot.

Besides you said it yourself, impeachment is a political process. Evidence isn't as important as Congress' desire to remove someone from office.

You're expecting too much. Just report his behavior.
I had a feeling from the first post tbh, oh well...
 

Novel

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,933
Apparently Trump is super happy about this. Thanks for totally clearing the President, Pelosi