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NakeyJakey - Naughty Dog's Game Design Is Outdated
- Thread starter Courage
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you know the thing is they always surprise me even if ND game have their style. Just like From Soft games have their style, I think it's okay to have a style.
If you're tiring of the style that's fine; but TLOU2 and UC4 really make for some of my favorite games this gen. They share a lot of similarities structurally but my experience is way different with both: UC4 was the ultimate summer blockbuster adventure, while the intensity and dread I felt for 30hrs of TLOU2 was unlike anything, cept for maybe the TLOU1.
Example: The Dino museum in TLOU2 was so wholesome and delightful, even if you can tell it's gonna be one of those type of "slow walk" moments ND is known for.
Okay I watched the whole video.
I chose to avoid TLOUp2 since I'm not into ultra violence, so I haven't played it for even a second, but even I can see that he's just not a fan of story-focused games, he just want to shoot stuff. So of course he's disappointed.
It's like starting to play BOTW and expect to have a good time if you're mostly into story-telling.
You have to know yourself and your own taste in games and choose games based on that instead of blindly go by hype and reviews. If you normally want to skip cutscenes, just so you can shoot some more or whatever, then there are plenty of other games out there that will get you more actual gameplay for your 25-30 hours of entertainment.
I chose to avoid TLOUp2 since I'm not into ultra violence, so I haven't played it for even a second, but even I can see that he's just not a fan of story-focused games, he just want to shoot stuff. So of course he's disappointed.
It's like starting to play BOTW and expect to have a good time if you're mostly into story-telling.
You have to know yourself and your own taste in games and choose games based on that instead of blindly go by hype and reviews. If you normally want to skip cutscenes, just so you can shoot some more or whatever, then there are plenty of other games out there that will get you more actual gameplay for your 25-30 hours of entertainment.
If you're a big fan of guys like him, then you're a fan of alt-right types. Sensible people don't wanna embolden and amplify their voices, which sharing names of other similarly shitty people, would do. But you do you.
The core gameplay loop really felt outdated to me:
explore/scavenge - combat area where you spend all your consumables - cutscene
Didn't matter tho becasue the gunplay was nice and the production values were amazing.
explore/scavenge - combat area where you spend all your consumables - cutscene
Didn't matter tho becasue the gunplay was nice and the production values were amazing.
Lol what a ridiculous thing to say. ND will always have my utmost respect for how they've advanced story telling and characters in their games.
But if that's not for you, stick with your unchanging, shoot bang FPSes for the decades to come.
On a side note, why do third person action games get called out in reviews for "not innovating", while games like FPSes offer the same experience year in year out, only with a fresh coat of graphics?
But if that's not for you, stick with your unchanging, shoot bang FPSes for the decades to come.
On a side note, why do third person action games get called out in reviews for "not innovating", while games like FPSes offer the same experience year in year out, only with a fresh coat of graphics?
That's... totally the wrong conclusion to make of that video. He likes the actual combat in the game the most of everything, but it also conflicts with what the narrative is trying to do. He specifically explains in a lenghty manner that he wishes the game was more willing to integrate its story beats into the actual gameplay instead of leaving them to cutscenes, and that the game had more creative gameplay elements to express itself.
He even compares the game to bioshock infinite in so far that both games tackle interesting themes but the actual gameplay is bogged down to simplistic combat.
I'm not sure how you can walk away from that thinking he doesn't like story telling focused games when the first 15 mins is constantly praising ND's past output...
Ok, surely you're just being obtuse on purpose. He is obviosuly referring to videos that in large part were made EVEN BEFORE THE GAME CAME OUT, based on the leaks, with often fake narratives applied on top of it. Leaks that claimed Abby was trans, or that Ellie dies at the end. Videos that were full of misogyny, pure hate and personal attacks on Neil Druckmann.
If you think him saying that he doesn't like the narrative is in any way close to that... whew.
I mean, he concludes Ellie as the villain and he doesn't even spend much time talking about Abby specifically, and praises Lev and Abby's relationship as being one of the few things he enjoyed about the narrative. Those factors alone would trigger the shit out of the kind of people that made those hate videos.
Overall, the video was fine. I don't fully agree on everything and just like with the RDR 2 video I think the idea that games should universally follow a singular "template" is utterly bizarre - I like that different devs have different ways of delivering the story they want to tell. However, I definitely share several of his criticism in regards to TLOU 2. Still a good game overall, though.
Thanks man! I love Bossattack OT threads too, but if his opinion is similar to tha of the guy on the video, I think like you, that is all over the place. TLoUS pt 2 is better in every single thing that part 1 (gameplay wise). I think that the plot is better but I my personal opinion.
I'm replaying the game right now and it's simply one of the best games ever made. Yes, that is allowed for a game that came out in 2020 and no, you don't need to have a list exclusively of games that came out in the 90s or that created gameplay genres or tropes.
This is game making at the highest level, on all fronts. It controls like a dream (from the dodging, to the quick turn, to the feel of sprinting, aiming, prone, jumping... Name it, it feels good to do) and gives you a ton of mobility. Level design is top-tier all throughout, facilitating all kinds of approaches to combat scenarios and allowing both the AI and the player to shine, while giving you fun exploration in-between and expertly juggling the balance between action and giving you time to breathe.
The balance is one of its more "hidden qualities", but almost every fight won feels like it can go either way, and you feel resources are important. If you want to approach things with a mix of stealth and action even more so. It has an impactful story that stays true to its setting and characters, and takes them in tragic directions and that will make you think.
It is a huge campaign with impeccable pacing and no real level recycling to speak of (the aquarium ends up being visited a bunch, but always in different contexts and interesting ways, you just won't think of it as recycling unless you really feel like looking for problems), basically two games in one as far as content is concerned. There are rpgs smaller than this.
The presentation is unrivaled, at every level, for the entirety fo the game. This is self-evident, it's simply the best in the business, period.
You get all this for the same price as any other game, only this is much more and much better.
You can make a thousand hour long videos and none of this will change, no matter how hard anyone tries to justify it. Verbosity doesn't mean you have a good argument, it just means you love the sound of your voice and have a hard time shutting up.
This is game making at the highest level, on all fronts. It controls like a dream (from the dodging, to the quick turn, to the feel of sprinting, aiming, prone, jumping... Name it, it feels good to do) and gives you a ton of mobility. Level design is top-tier all throughout, facilitating all kinds of approaches to combat scenarios and allowing both the AI and the player to shine, while giving you fun exploration in-between and expertly juggling the balance between action and giving you time to breathe.
The balance is one of its more "hidden qualities", but almost every fight won feels like it can go either way, and you feel resources are important. If you want to approach things with a mix of stealth and action even more so. It has an impactful story that stays true to its setting and characters, and takes them in tragic directions and that will make you think.
It is a huge campaign with impeccable pacing and no real level recycling to speak of (the aquarium ends up being visited a bunch, but always in different contexts and interesting ways, you just won't think of it as recycling unless you really feel like looking for problems), basically two games in one as far as content is concerned. There are rpgs smaller than this.
The presentation is unrivaled, at every level, for the entirety fo the game. This is self-evident, it's simply the best in the business, period.
You get all this for the same price as any other game, only this is much more and much better.
You can make a thousand hour long videos and none of this will change, no matter how hard anyone tries to justify it. Verbosity doesn't mean you have a good argument, it just means you love the sound of your voice and have a hard time shutting up.
Ignoring the meta commentary about the critic, his association with others, or his brand of humour for a second...
He made a lot of salient points about issues with the Last of Us II which I can really agree with and are legitimate and honest criticisms that Naughty Dog should take to heart.
For example, auto-pick up really should be turned on because what is the point of the utter monotony of pressing triangle a millions times when there is no strategic planning or gameplay design around the management of inventory. Since you're literally going to always pick up every single item, then why not have auto-pick up enabled. The fact that I played the whole game with it on makes me feel outright terrible.
His other point about the fake open-world, wide-linear slow opening segments which have no major emergent gameplay design elements also make a lot of sense, and are a real chore on a second play through (frankly they were a chore in the first play through as well).
The real meat and potatoes of the world-class gameplay design (the encounters) are frankly a very small piece (3-4 hours) of the overall gameplay (25-30 hours). I agree with those that say the ND has improved their core gameplay mechanics a lot and TLOU2 is first class in 3rd person shooter/survival gameplay mechanics. But the point is, you spend maybe 10-20% of the game utilizing those mechanics. The rest of the game is spent doing a lot of boring, monotonous tasks pressing triangle at every little nook and crany which doesn't really make for an amazing 10/10 game when talking strictly about gameplay.
Now what brings all of those design complaints together is his overall point about the luddonarrative dissonance of the 2nd game when ND had finally nailed that aspect for the first time in TLOU1. In TLOU2, the whole narrative falls apart when you realize that the attachment and lessons you're supposed to have learned due to the dual narrative are only learned by you, the player, and not the character of Ellie, who has no major reason to make the choices she does when she has spent the majority of the game brutal demolishing and murdering everyone who gets in the way of her revenge.
THAT is a fantastic point.
I really do agree with all of these points and they verbalize a lot of the issues I had with the game while playing it, and realizing I wasn't enjoying it anywhere to the degree that I enjoyed the first one.
A big reason for the huge adulation for ND games is the narrative, characters, and writing. And while many of those pillars are still strong in the 2nd game, they dont really tie in as well together as they did in the first one. Hope ND can hit the mark again as well as they did in the first one.
He made a lot of salient points about issues with the Last of Us II which I can really agree with and are legitimate and honest criticisms that Naughty Dog should take to heart.
For example, auto-pick up really should be turned on because what is the point of the utter monotony of pressing triangle a millions times when there is no strategic planning or gameplay design around the management of inventory. Since you're literally going to always pick up every single item, then why not have auto-pick up enabled. The fact that I played the whole game with it on makes me feel outright terrible.
His other point about the fake open-world, wide-linear slow opening segments which have no major emergent gameplay design elements also make a lot of sense, and are a real chore on a second play through (frankly they were a chore in the first play through as well).
The real meat and potatoes of the world-class gameplay design (the encounters) are frankly a very small piece (3-4 hours) of the overall gameplay (25-30 hours). I agree with those that say the ND has improved their core gameplay mechanics a lot and TLOU2 is first class in 3rd person shooter/survival gameplay mechanics. But the point is, you spend maybe 10-20% of the game utilizing those mechanics. The rest of the game is spent doing a lot of boring, monotonous tasks pressing triangle at every little nook and crany which doesn't really make for an amazing 10/10 game when talking strictly about gameplay.
Now what brings all of those design complaints together is his overall point about the luddonarrative dissonance of the 2nd game when ND had finally nailed that aspect for the first time in TLOU1. In TLOU2, the whole narrative falls apart when you realize that the attachment and lessons you're supposed to have learned due to the dual narrative are only learned by you, the player, and not the character of Ellie, who has no major reason to make the choices she does when she has spent the majority of the game brutal demolishing and murdering everyone who gets in the way of her revenge.
THAT is a fantastic point.
I really do agree with all of these points and they verbalize a lot of the issues I had with the game while playing it, and realizing I wasn't enjoying it anywhere to the degree that I enjoyed the first one.
A big reason for the huge adulation for ND games is the narrative, characters, and writing. And while many of those pillars are still strong in the 2nd game, they dont really tie in as well together as they did in the first one. Hope ND can hit the mark again as well as they did in the first one.
I'm really not. I think he is derailing his own discourse making fun of the narrative (how the game is presented, the choices, etc.). Like the other videos that he is saying he will not emulated. But you know, I for one don't bother to be wrong. Maybe I'm wrong and that's okey. People in the internet always have to be right, win the argument. Be dichotomous.
Nope.
I get criticising RDR2 for outdated game design, but this one is bunch of nitpicking without merit.
I get criticising RDR2 for outdated game design, but this one is bunch of nitpicking without merit.
Where exactly are you getting these figures from? You think there are 21-26 hours of walking and watching cutscenes in this game?
Yup, let's not even get into how close you have to be to items to see them and trigger the pickup prompt.
At the very least, ND should have offered "auto-pickup" as an unlockable perk a few hours into the game.
There's not enough said about its film qualities. It's a fucking cinematic masterpiece. Actual film cinematographers and editors poured their hearts and souls into this game.
Totally agree with this one. Naughty Dog games are completely unremarkable and unimaginitative when it comes to gameplay design. They are also awful at making interactive stories.
The Last of Us Part II has the best encounter design in a video game since RE4. I have rarely been as impressed with a game's design while playing it as I was with TLOU2
It's a fantastic point if you reduce the game to a simplistic parable it never is trying to be. There's a pretty obvious reason she makes the decisions she does at the end and it's not 'revenge bad'.
That's an option in the game, and a lot of people including myself would rather choose when to pick items up and see that feedback on screen instead of watching an autopilot. I like being able to look at which materials are being individually given so I can take into account how soon I can likely upgrade or craft something.
You're welcome to prefer auto pickup, but don't pretend like its objectively better just like most of the complaints. (also the hyperbole about pressing triangle for hours means I probably shouldn't have spent the time replying at all)
its literally a setting in options
I mean yeah, it's basically the same game since 2007 with a different narrative. There are changes here and there, and TLoU combat is more interesting than Uncharted, but it's still a pretty standard zombie game.
Naughty Dog used to be quite good at guiding the player through a linear level that "seems" open, but I played a few hours of TLoU2 and apparently they lost that, too. When I realized I wasn't interested in the narrative, I just dropped the game.
I'll watch the video, because the one about RDR2 explained pretty well why I don't like Rockstar games, either.
Naughty Dog used to be quite good at guiding the player through a linear level that "seems" open, but I played a few hours of TLoU2 and apparently they lost that, too. When I realized I wasn't interested in the narrative, I just dropped the game.
I'll watch the video, because the one about RDR2 explained pretty well why I don't like Rockstar games, either.
Same same, the gameplay in last of us part 2 is a staggering achievement. It's so damn good. I did agree with him on his take on RDR 2 though!
I haven't watched the video yet but there are some hot takes in this thread already. If anyone says that the linear, closed-off arena fights and basic crafting systems are outdated, I will agree with them but saying that the actual gameplay of TLOU 2 is outdated (as some people are stating in here) is just ridiculous. Say what you will but the moment to moment emergent gameplay is second to none in that game.
Umm, i dont know, based on the fact that I played the game?
And the guy in the video is right, if you go back and play only the encounters after you've beaten the game, you'll be past those in a handful of hours.
God of war is a good example of a game that balances its combat gameplay loop, and it's cinematic/story priorities much better. I didn't feel like it dragged on or was overly monotonous or that my time was wasted after I beat that game. TLOU2 on the other hand really felt like a poorly paced game when it came to its different game play loops, especially coming off a perfectly paced TLOU1.
That's fine. Not saying you're an alt-righter by the way, just saying you're a fan of someone who is which some see as problematic. I'd suggest other youtubers though, but my tastes ain't yours so you do you.
You played through the whole game doing something you didn't like that was completely optional?
The accessibility options are extensive
Never played the game, enjoyed listening to the video in the background. I played some Uncharted 1 and 4 along with The Last of Us 1 and didn't care for the shallowness of the gameplay. Also I tend to get put off by these kinds of games where a big appeal is murdering the shit out of humanized people in the most violent and realistic ways possible.
How Long to Beat says it's 23.5 hours for the main story. The guy in the video says it took around that long--I don't remember the exact number--for him to go through all the combat encounters on hard, from the menu that opens up after beating the game.
TLOU2 is not a standard zombie game though. No zombie game has the stealth and variability to approaching enemy encounters this game has. In fact, most other games don't. Not even Metal Gear Survive. Low hanging fruit? Definitely, they're the most ripe and delicious.
I also think TLOU 2 has pacing problems, but God of War has them as well. The Atreus arc is rushed to hell and back and getting the item to open up a portal takes thrice a long without anything meaningful happening both storywise and character wise.
People really listening to agreeable reviews by questionable youtubers in the background to reinforce their existing biases.
Imagine pressing a button to pick up ammo for your gun every time while playing Halo. You'd constantly be walking around pressing Y in every single room. It's inconceivable to do that, yet for some reason, it's modus operandi in TLOU. Completely and wholly unnecessary.
Dumping that setting under accessability options and expecting that to be ok is not my idea of good design. But yes, at the very least I can completely avoid it on my next play through or any future ND games if they bring all these options forward.
Good on ND for being so thorough with their customizability options though.
Dumping that setting under accessability options and expecting that to be ok is not my idea of good design. But yes, at the very least I can completely avoid it on my next play through or any future ND games if they bring all these options forward.
Good on ND for being so thorough with their customizability options though.
You may have noticed I never made a judgment on the game in my post, and that's because I just enjoyed listening to his perspective and how the video was presented and explained why the game isn't for me. I'm not convinced he's even "correct" with his opinion.
Never checked out the accessibility options and didn't expect auto pickup to be there.... kinda hoped to get a perk.
Ah, what's done is done. Game was pretty good regardless.
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