• Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.
  • We have made minor adjustments to how the search bar works on ResetEra. You can read about the changes here.
Status
Not open for further replies.

The Albatross

Member
Oct 25, 2017
39,029
Its not nearly as complicated as you typed out. Sony made the decision to not hire an entire call center of employees to deal with chargeback disputes. Instead they created an automated response to prevent possible fraud. In order to get it reversed it requires a customer service interaction and possibly providing documentation of the incident. They give advance notice you can lose your account if this happens through their carefully crafted TOS.

They have already weighed the negatives of angering the small amount of users who would be inconvenienced by this vs the large amount of money they would lose if they didn't automatically flag these types of transactions. Clearly a large amount of businesses also accept this same model, specifically when dealing with digital content. The best way to reform this would be to enact some new laws regarding sale of digital content that currently arent on the books.

I understand Sony's motivation in fucking over customers, they've decided that it's better for them to fuck over a customer for a simple mistake that the customer is trying to resolve, than it is for them to offer a baseline of customer service for customers.

I get the transactional nature of Sony's business here -- fuck over paying customers for small easily resolvable issues -- I think it's wrong. As a customer who was fucked over by Sony's simple malfeasance 10 years ago, I complained loudly about this at the time, and Sony did -- slowly -- respond with positive changes (security audits, not storing passwords in plain text, protecting customer's credit card information, simple modern threat security, functioning password reset systems, policies on notifying users of breaches, a big apology tour compensating customers). If people like me did didn't complain about it 10 years ago, and just took our lumps ("Sony decided it's not within their financial interest to have a modern threat security system, so it's really your fault for assuming that they would") then there wouldn't have been pressure on Sony to change. Ultimately, it was in Sony's interest to listen to customers, as millions of customers came back to PSN because of Sony's year-long apology tour (although as a worldwide company they really didn't change all that much, as their customers would yet again be victims of another hack 3 years later)

In this thread, a handful of people objected to me thinking it's wrong to blame Sony, and that's what resulted in my "complicated" response (which really isn't complicated; more words don't make something more complex).
 
Last edited:

Manmademan

Election Thread Watcher
Member
Aug 6, 2018
16,006
This shit is why theres a faction of people who outright hate the all-digital future and I don't blame them.

Ban the account, but don't take shit from people that they paid for.

Yep. I've mentioned a few times every time a thread comes up that a VERY real possibility if your PSN or Live account is compromised or banned that gamers will lose everything with no recourse for reimbursement because you do not own any of those games.

You have a license to play them that can be revoked at will. No amount of convenience from not having to take 2 minutes to switch a disc is worth it.

As for charge backs, Sony isn't in the wrong here. I read through only about half the thread, but what I didn't see was a clarification that from the Merchant side, too many charge backs can result in the merchant getting hit with a per charge back fee up to $100, incurring higher transaction costs across the board, or losing the ability to process credit cards completely.

Sorting out the "honest mistakes" from people using stolen cards, to people who just use charge backs as a way to refund things isn't feasible when you have a hundred million active users. The risk of losing the ability to process transactions when Visa and MC have had enough is simply too great.
 
Last edited:
Nov 9, 2017
3,777
I understand Sony's motivation in fucking over customers, they've decided that it's better for them to fuck over a customer for a simple mistake that the customer is trying to resolve, than it is for them to offer a baseline of customer service for customers.

I get the transactional nature of Sony's business here -- fuck over paying customers for small easily resolvable issues -- I think it's wrong.

A handful of people objected to me thinking it's wrong to blame Sony, and that's what resulted in my "complicated" response (which really isn't complicated; more words don't make something more complex).

If "fuck over paying customers" means asking them to repay the charged back amount or asking the customer to provide documentation for the reason the chargebacks were requested in the first place, I guess I would agree with you.

A card chargeback is a serious request and doesn't just happen by accident. I don't think its asking too much to have it be partly the customer's responsibility to get something like this reversed/resolved.
 

MrFox

VFX Rendering Pipeline Developer
Verified
Jun 8, 2020
1,435
i can almost guarantee those companies do it too
As far as I have seen, they all suspend the account as soon as there is a credit card fraud flagged on the account, it's always been that way. Steam, nintendo, microsoft, sony, google, apple... But with accounts being linked to other purchases, it's a situation today that needs to be revised. People really need to make the distinction between the chargeback (which flags the transaction as fraudulent), and contesting charges with the company.

Why is Steam the "gold standard"? It read identically.

There is a Zero-Tolerance policy for any violations of the Steam Subscriber Agreement and Online Code of Conduct. All accounts in a user's possession for any of the following activities will be suspended:
  • Payment Fraud
    Any fraudulent credit card use, credit card chargebacks, or Paypal chargebacks (regardless of when the transaction occurred).
 

msdstc

Member
Nov 6, 2017
6,876
PSN online charges are specifically are named "PlaystationNetwork" though. I really don't see how you see that and not recognise it and thus decide to do a chargeback without even double checking what you have bought recently (Sony even helpfully emails you the receipt!). Maybe they weren't so obviously named in the past? But certainly now there is no way you can see a PSN charge and not know what it was from.



Banning an account for the user using a credit card that isn't theirs without permission is not "a threat" at all. It is just sensible.



That isn't what a chargeback is though. You are not getting your account banned for mistyping your 3 digit code so stop spreading hyperbole.
The OP fraudulently used a credit card and then the credit cards owner disputed the charge.

Lmao ok so is this denial or accusation? Shit happens, my friend is scatterbrained as fuckall, he said a charge for playstation network and didn't realize that they auto renew plus so he thought somebody was logged into his account grabbing games. He forgets what he ate for breakfast sometimes, seeing a random charge out of nowhere after a year caught him offguard.
 

KillingJoke

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,672
People need to understand charge backs is actually a serious issue for a business. Especially for a company like Sony processing millions of dollars. So while it may seem extreme to suspend an account. It makes sense until the situation is handled.

Just look from Sony's perspective. They were just told your account is being accused of fraudulent charges, why wouldn't they suspend/ban your account temporarily?
 
Oct 25, 2017
9,872
People on reddit always recommend credit card chargebacks for minor customer service issues, but it's terrible advice. Most companies do not want to do business with you ever again if you issue a chargeback. It's not just a shortcut to getting a refund.
 

The Albatross

Member
Oct 25, 2017
39,029
So you could play a game for a month then chargeback, free game for a month..?

Probably not. The service (PSN, whoever) will resolve the dispute with your CC issuer, and then your CC issuer will determine whether you're liable for the charge and they'll likely bill you in your next cycle. For instance, if you spend $40 at a gas station then drive 400 miles, and then after driving issue a charge back, that's not free gas for a month. You're almost certainly going to be on the hook for that gas.
 

1-D_FE

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,259
Why is Steam the "gold standard"? It read identically.


Because the stuff I'd read (and specifically the quote I quoted) made it seem like that wasn't the case.

Nothing wrong with locking an account. Maybe this was properly addressed in the Threadmark, but threadmark wasn't working for me for whatever reason.

I just assumed this many posts in a thread, it must have been something to get worked up about. Whoops. Never assume.
 

Weebos

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,060
They double charged me for a digital purchase once, and after going around and around with Sony and my bank, the bank attempted a chargeback on one of the purchases. They immediately suspended my account. After trying for another few hours I ended up just paying the double amount so I could have my account back.

Shit sucks.
 
Nov 9, 2017
3,777
Most places still take returns on opened games too, just not places like EB/Gamestop.

How are you supposed to know if it's not good if you don't open it?

There is a difference in returning a faulty product (bad disc or cartridge) vs returning a perfectly fine game that has already been opened and most likely played. Mind telling me which retailer took a return and gave a full refund for an opened video game?
 

CatAssTrophy

Member
Dec 4, 2017
7,619
Texas
People on reddit always recommend credit card chargebacks for minor customer service issues, but it's terrible advice. Most companies do not want to do business with you ever again if you issue a chargeback. It's not just a shortcut to getting a refund.

Some banks will even close your (usually debit) card and issue a new one, because the only way they'll actually initiate the chargeback is if it's under the assumption that it wasn't an authorized charge. It's not as easy of a process as a lot of people make it seem- at least not with Chase like I did.

They essentially were like "did you already try to resolve with the other company?" and if yes, they treat it like someone stole my card/pin and have to close it and re-issue. Hell, in some cases they'll even close your entire bank account and give you new cards and bank account numbers. This happened once for me when I had an unauthorized paypal charge that paypal wouldn't help me with. I raised the issue with Chase and they closed my account and made me redo everything from scratch.
 

Jade1962

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
4,259
Wait. So OP committed CC fraud against his parents, they did a chargeback, and his account was banned? Seems about right for a suspected credit card scammer. If the parents did the charge back, it's a safe bet they reported the charge as fraudulent/stolen cc number...

Exactly this. People are arguing about all these what ifs but it was his parents who filed a charge back. Of course Sony is going to freeze his PSN until someone calls to resolve the issue. All they see on their end is an account accussed of fraud. I would want them to freeze my account too if I saw fraudulent activity and requested a charge back. Why his parents went straight to charge back and didn't file a fraud claim or ask their son if he knew about it we don't know but none of this seems nefarious on Sony's part. Now if in a month he still doesn't have access to his account then sound the alarms.
 

Nostremitus

Member
Nov 15, 2017
7,777
Alabama
Exactly this. People are arguing about all these what ifs but it was his parents who filed a charge back. Of course Sony is going to freeze his PSN until someone calls to resolve the issue. All they see on their end is an account accussed of fraud. I would want them to freeze my account too if I saw fraudulent activity and requested a charge back. Why his parents went straight to charge back and didn't file a fraud claim or ask their son if he knew about it we don't know but none of this seems nefarious on Sony's part. Now if in a month he still doesn't have access to his account then sound the alarms.
If the parents contacted their card company and filed a fraud claim/ stolen cc # claim, then the company would do their own chargeback and it would look identical from OP's standpoint.
 

Deleted member 19533

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,873
Most places still take returns on opened games too, just not places like EB/Gamestop.

How are you supposed to know if it's not good if you don't open it?
Where do you live? This very much isn't a thing in my state. If it's opened, it's yours. Gamestop will only offer credit, and other stores will only offer an exchange for the same item, which they will then open so you can't try to return it.
 

HotHamBoy

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
16,423
Amazon and local stores often do, Walmart will most of the time, EB and Gamestop refuse, trade in only.
Opened games can only be exchanged for another copy of the same game. You can't get your money back and you can't exchange for a different title.

This is most store policies, including Walmart, Best Buy, Target, etc. Google it.
 

Jade1962

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
4,259
If the parents contacted their card company and filed a fraud claim/ stolen cc # claim, then the company would do their own chargeback and it would look identical from OP's standpoint.

Yeah that's what happened though. I understand he's upset about it but Sony didn't ban his account just because. The biggest problem I see here is first Sony's customer service and second the OP using his parents credit card without telling them.
 

MrFox

VFX Rendering Pipeline Developer
Verified
Jun 8, 2020
1,435
Yeah that's what happened though. I understand he's upset about it but Sony didn't ban his account just because. The biggest problem I see here is first Sony's customer service and second the OP using his parents credit card without telling them.

As long as they have a simple way to reinstate the account once the person reimbursed the money owed, it's not so bad. The CC companies seem to have a special case for "a family member used my card without permission" which is not treated as a fraud. But it's the CC holder that needs to resolve this.

I'm curious how things will pan out once OP pays back the charge, and how long it will take.
 
Nov 9, 2017
3,777
Not to pile on the OP, but the term "permanently suspended" is an oxymoron. Suspension means they are locking you out of your account until you can provide documentation that the chargeback was not fraud and/or you payback what is owed for the chargeback amount.
 

OrangeNova

Member
Oct 30, 2017
12,651
Canada
they take returns with restrictions.

i have no idea where you would even get this idea there is like carte blanche return policies on opened games lol, it has been the same thing for years
Amazon and local stores often do, Walmart will most of the time, EB and Gamestop refuse, trade in only.
Where did I say it was Carte Blanche.

But like 90% of the time, if I came in with a game a few days later opened, and just explained the game wasn't good, or not what I wanted, they'll take the return.

I do often go for exchange for same price or store credit, but I'm usually spending it there anyway.
 
May 19, 2020
4,828
Where did I say it was Carte Blanche.

But like 90% of the time, if I came in with a game a few days later opened, and just explained the game wasn't good, or not what I wanted, they'll take the return.

I do often go for exchange for same price or store credit, but I'm usually spending it there anyway.
*bzzzzzzt* that's the sound of your electronic football goalpost moving
 

Nostremitus

Member
Nov 15, 2017
7,777
Alabama
Yeah that's what happened though. I understand he's upset about it but Sony didn't ban his account just because. The biggest problem I see here is first Sony's customer service and second the OP using his parents credit card without telling them.
I wasn't disagreeing with you, that was me that you had quoted. The biggest problem is OP not having funds for whatever they were purchasing so OP used (stole) his/her parents' credit card without asking. They reported it, he/she got banned. I don't know about you, but whenever I use a different card on my account, I always double check it before purchasing with it, and I KNOW that the only cards on there are mine. I still check the number and expiration... It's hard to believe that OP didn't know they were using a card that they didn't own...
 

OrangeNova

Member
Oct 30, 2017
12,651
Canada
*bzzzzzzt* that's the sound of your electronic football goalpost moving
Goal post hasn't moved.

My first statement was: "If a Card Chargeback occurs, undo the purchase that happened on the device, don't just ban them, that's just lazy."

Undoing the purchase fits with store credit (Or like item).

You can still walk in and return an open product at a walmart, or local, but it's not always the case but it is most of the time (At no point did I say that it's 100% of the time)

Edit: Y'all get real quiet when I respond to your comments of me moving the goal posts. People should be able to return games, restricting returning products Because there's no plastic around it, or someone may have played it a bit and found out they dislike it... Is the definition of anti-consumer, all the risk is on the buyer. And in digital the only option you have usually is chargeback. There are others that are better like xbox and steam have a time limit/play limit on it and you can get a full refund.
 
Last edited:

Swift_Gamer

Banned
Dec 14, 2018
3,701
Rio de Janeiro
Why do people take the corporation side when this stuff happens? Yeas, a person made a mistake, they should've just locked them out of that one purchase, not all of them.
"Oh, but it's written on the TOS!!!".
OKAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYY?
That doesn't mean it's right or any better. It was wrong then and it's wrong now.
This NEEDS to change.
 

Jade1962

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
4,259
I wasn't disagreeing with you, that was me that you had quoted. The biggest problem is OP not having funds for whatever they were purchasing so OP used (stole) his/her parents' credit card without asking. They reported it, he/she got banned. I don't know about you, but whenever I use a different card on my account, I always double check it before purchasing with it, and I KNOW that the only cards on there are mine. I still check the number and expiration... It's hard to believe that OP didn't know they were using a card that they didn't own...

My bad. Coyotes have been keeping me awake the past few nights. Yeah I do exactly the same. I had this happen to me recently was about to select other debit card on my PSN but went to check that I had funds before finalizing the transactions. Know I'm probably coming off as non caring but all this can be checked at your finger tips with your phone before any transaction takes place.
 

Issen

Member
Nov 12, 2017
6,819
As far as I have seen, they all suspend the account as soon as there is a credit card fraud flagged on the account, it's always been that way. Steam, nintendo, microsoft, sony, google, apple... But with accounts being linked to other purchases, it's a situation today that needs to be revised. People really need to make the distinction between the chargeback (which flags the transaction as fraudulent), and contesting charges with the company.

Why is Steam the "gold standard"? It read identically.

Steam is the gold standard because an account that's restricted due to a chargeback still has access to its games. Furthermore, the restrictions can be lifted if the chargeback is reversed.

Payment Disputes and Chargebacks - General - Knowledge Base - Steam Support (steampowered.com)
 

Lakeside

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,218
Banning an account for the user using a credit card that isn't theirs without permission is not "a threat" at all. It is just sensible.

I honestly don't know why we have corporate defenders here but you do you.

This shit happens with PSN all the time. I've opened 4 tickets with PSN and have 0 resolutions. They are terrible despite what you apparently believe. Hell I have 1 unrelated ticket I've opened with Sony's media division due to issues with a digital copy code. Also 0 resolution. They just opt to not support their customers.

Going forward payment issues should not result in loss of legit content.

Regardless, if my child steals my card and buys something it's one thing. If I've allowed my child to purchase digital content on my card and they later buy something else without asking it's a different situation than "fraud".
 
Last edited:

Fularu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,609
« it's written in the TOS/EULA »

Screw those, they don't even have legal validity in most countries anyway since they can't restrict consumer rights and depriving someone from his legitimate purchases is definitely not legal.
 

Lakeside

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,218
« it's written in the TOS/EULA »

Screw those, they don't even have legal validity in most countries anyway since they can't restrict consumer rights and depriving someone from his legitimate purchases is definitely not legal.

My family used to own a boat dealership. Our TOS stated that items left in the boat (being repaired) could not be secured and we wouldn't be responsible for theft. There was no fence. Boats could not be stored indoors. People signed a fucking line item that this was the case.

Every time someone got their shit stolen because they were lazy they took us to court and we lost. The court gave no shits about our TOS.
 

CRIMSON-XIII

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,173
Chicago, IL
Quick or slow question here.

What if you are in a situation where your child accidently charges a bunch of fortnite points or overwatch loot boxes or something. I've heard of stories of folks getting big heavy refunds for these situations. Wouldn't that turn to a situation of their PSN getting banned?

I'm basically asking what situation would leave you with an active and not banned PSN. I have never had buyers remorse for the few things i buy digitally. But i gotta be careful to never want a refund so that nothing happens to my account.
 

headspawn

Member
Oct 27, 2017
14,615
I see a lot of people getting "Stopped payments" confused with 'Charge Backs', the former is something your bank could potentially do automatically if they sense fraud or if you overdrew your account and something still somehow got purchased; the later is totally different and involves your bank actively charging the amount to Sony. Totally different.
 
OP
OP
GameChanger

GameChanger

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,935
User Banned (5 Days): Hostility over a Series of Posts; Prior Ban for Hostility
It is indeed not "fucking" hard. Don't willingly use a old credit card that is potentially not even yours and commit fraud. His parents didn't even know that he used it. He didn't even inform them when he willingly used an old credit card that he knew could potentially not be his

So unless parents tell you that you can use their credit card without telling them and spent it on whatever. Perhaps it's smart to first ask your parents or at least inform them. Otherwise you are just stealing and are unauthorized to use their credit card.

Like i said in my previous post. Perhaps it's time to organize and figure out what cards are his and whats not.
Kids should not be using their parents card without the parent giving permission.
If they are doing that then the kid fucked up and any ban of their account is basically a life lesson in how not to be an idiot.



Maybe a lesson to the kid to not use someones card without being given permission to?
Some of y'all are so fucking dense. My parents have no problem with me using their credit cards. There is a reason why the credit card was already on my account. Hell I didn't even know it was my parents credit card. I didn't have to put any info in. I was just in a rush to buy the games before Black Friday sales ended. My mom has no problem either. She just didn't know why she was charged by PlayStation. I didn't know she was being charged by PlayStation. The whole thing is one giant miscommunication. My parents use my card too since our accounts are connected. We don't have to ask each other for permission. But y'all keep making assumptions and assigning blame and fault. SDF coming out in full force here.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.