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GrrImAFridge

ONE THOUSAND DOLLARYDOOS
Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,697
Western Australia
Chargebacks will result in a ban in most stores. Microsoft bans for it, Apple bans for it, Valve bans for it.

Valve stopped banning/suspending accounts in early 2012 (well, with one extraordinary exception) in favour of a restriction-based penalty system that merely cuts off access to certain features. This is what happens if you issue a chargeback, for example:

The only permanent change is the blacklisting of the payment account/method used; all of the other restrictions either auto-expire after nine weeks or are immediately lifted if you elect to reverse the chargeback (not my image):

vPP5BJg.png
 

Deleted member 10747

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,259
Kids use their parents' credit cards constantly for digital purchases. Not to mention families let people use cards for digital purposes for gift giving etc within families. Again, Sony needs to put in place a three strikes policy with dedicated support channels to assess how and why the chargeback occurred so they can best communicate to the account owner why they shouldn't do this and what steps they can take to make sure it doesn't happen again. It's not fucking hard.
My usual credit card did not go through so I ended up using one of the old credit cards that were on my account. Now I don't use the old card anymore and it might be linked to my parents account. I figure it's one of my parents who disputed the charge since I highly doubt the bank did it on it's own.
It is indeed not "fucking" hard. Don't willingly use a old credit card that is potentially not even yours and commit fraud. His parents didn't even know that he used it. He didn't even inform them when he willingly used an old credit card that he knew could potentially not be his

So unless parents tell you that you can use their credit card without telling them and spent it on whatever. Perhaps it's smart to first ask your parents or at least inform them. Otherwise you are just stealing and are unauthorized to use their credit card.

Like i said in my previous post. Perhaps it's time to organize and figure out what cards are his and whats not.
 

big_z

Member
Nov 2, 2017
7,827
I'm more curious what op was buying that was so important he had to jack his parents credit card out of desperation.
 

Dr. Mario

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
14,042
Netherlands
Your CC bounced so you just used your parents' CC to buy the thing you want, what?

Anyway, a company should not be able to hold all your prior purchases hostage to settle a current dispute. Especially if you have tens of games, the potential cost for the consumer does not weigh against the cost for the company and it's pretty much blackmailing. I would probably sue if it can't be resolved, but I'm in Europe. I think in the US where EULAs matter, you'd be SOL.
 

Sybil

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
1,642
Surprised that some people don't know chargebacks usually lead to account bans/restrictions with most online services. Maybe this shows my (zoomer) age, but I first learned about chargebacks when I was like 12 when I got banned from an MMO for a chargeback haha. Didn't even dispute with game support once I knew what a chargeback implied.

Though I hope you get it untangled OP, mistakes aside. I think it is pretty whack that they don't just restrict you from buying anything and let you dl whatever you've already bought ages ago.
 

emmastone

Alt-Account
Banned
Mar 28, 2020
204
And I don't know what to do about it. The customer service number is not taking any calls right now due to high volume of call. Has this happened to anyone here?

Had this problem. Did a chargeback for a Plus membership that I didn't agree to (disabled auto renew before that). Account was disabled and I never did try to get it back. No loss since I didn't have a lot of digital games but haven't really been a fan of Sony since. Contacting them it just was going back and forth without going anywhere.
 

Tunesmith

Fraud & Player Security
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
1,946
Sony has a web form to fill out to repay the charges due from chargebacks to reopen accounts.

How to reverse a PSN suspension for account debt

If your payment method has had a charge reversed on a PlayStation™Store purchase, this can result in your account being restricted from accessing PlayStation™Network (PSN).
 

AgeEighty

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,597
I don't think people quite understand how serious chargebacks are for a vendor.

Chargebacks are a massive pain in the ass for vendors and can cause massive fees. And enough chargebacks can get vendor accounts terminated and blackballed.

Granted, Sony is a massive company, but this is why they're so quick to shutdown accounts that file them. Simply put, they should always be a last resort and shouldn't be used unless you're sure you never want to work with a vendor again.

Yup. The people accusing this reality check of being "corporate bootlicking" don't have a clue what they're talking about.

It also doesn't matter how large your company is in terms of whether a financial institution will flag you over chargebacks, especially in countries outside the US.
 

WelshBluebird

Member
Jul 22, 2020
123
Kids use their parents' credit cards constantly for digital purchases

Kids should not be using their parents card without the parent giving permission.
If they are doing that then the kid fucked up and any ban of their account is basically a life lesson in how not to be an idiot.

Yeah, my brother-in-law charged back a payment that his son made on his card without him knowing so my nephew ended up with a banned account. It seemed like the fix was simple enough as contacting Sony and getting them their money back but with covid it was impossible to contact them via phone or through their online chat.

Had to make the kid a new PSN account. Kind of crazy that a huge company was 100% unreachable but I guess these are the times in which we're living.

Maybe a lesson to the kid to not use someones card without being given permission to?
 

StalinTheCat

Member
Oct 30, 2017
720
Let me try to understand this: OP tried to purchase something and the transaction did not go through.
They then go on their account, switch the CC (shouldn't the system ask you to confirm the CVV at this point, especially if the card was not used for a while? I am pretty sure it does happen on other marketplaces...), try again to purchase something "with a card that was there".

The mom of OP goes immediately nuclear and charge back the amount (without even asking OP?) and Sony bans the account, suspecting fraud.

Somehow, after all of the above, someone comes here and call us "bootlickers".
Never change ERA.
 

Fliesen

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,281
Let me try to understand this: OP tried to purchase something and the transaction did not go through.
They then go on their account, switch the CC (shouldn't the system ask you to confirm the CVV at this point, especially if the card was not used for a while? I am pretty sure it does happen on other marketplaces...), try again to purchase something "with a card that was there".

The mom of OP goes immediately nuclear and charge back the amount (without even asking OP?) and Sony bans the account, suspecting fraud.

Somehow, after all of the above, someone comes here and call us "bootlickers".
Never change ERA.

I would assume that OP had memorized the CVV?

On one hand, it's of course a bit of an overreaction by OP's mom to immediately file a chargeback without even texting OP.
But at the same time, i'd rather have folks be overly cautious than to fall for phishing / fraud or other schemes. 🤷‍♂️
 

DieH@rd

Member
Oct 26, 2017
10,676
Sony has a web form to fill out to repay the charges due from chargebacks to reopen accounts.

How to reverse a PSN suspension for account debt

If your payment method has had a charge reversed on a PlayStation™Store purchase, this can result in your account being restricted from accessing PlayStation™Network (PSN).
^^^^^

I recently refunded an item on PSN, I did not dare to do a chargeback. Contacted support via email form, and received wallet refund a week later.
 

regenhuber

Member
Nov 4, 2017
5,233
I only use psn points. Don't like my card info held.

This.
OPs biggest mistake was linking banking cards/accounts to PSN to begin with.
Buying PSN cards takes like 1 min and eliminates all chargeback issues. Sometimes you even get a sweet deal.
Also protects you from getting your details stolen off of Sony's server (older folks will remember).
 

StalinTheCat

Member
Oct 30, 2017
720
I would assume that OP had memorized the CVV?

On one hand, it's of course a bit of an overreaction by OP's mom to immediately file a chargeback without even texting OP.
But at the same time, i'd rather have folks be overly cautious than to fall for phishing / fraud or other schemes. 🤷‍♂️
Sorry but if that's the case, wouldn't you text/alert your mom that you are using her card?
It's so very confusing.

Anyway, my point was that people are so quick on here to use the "you are a bootlicker" type of bs, without even fully understanding what has happened.
 

XR.

Member
Nov 22, 2018
6,628
Yup. The people accusing this reality check of being "corporate bootlicking" don't have a clue what they're talking about.

It also doesn't matter how large your company is in terms of whether a financial institution will flag you over chargebacks, especially in countries outside the US.
I think everyone understands and accepts the severity of doing a chargeback, but there's no need to restrict the whole account.

I think more companies can afford to adapt Valve's policy here.
Kids should not be using their parents card without the parent giving permission.
If they are doing that then the kid fucked up and any ban of their account is basically a life lesson in how not to be an idiot.



Maybe a lesson to the kid to not use someones card without being given permission to?
Hell yeah brother, you gotta teach them kids how to take consequences, not teach them how to avoid them. 👏
 

AgeEighty

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,597
I think everyone understands and accepts the severity of doing a chargeback, but there's no need to restrict the whole account.

The idea is that they're cutting out a potential source of chargebacks, and the fact is, while it certainly isn't always the case, people do tend to be repeat offenders. It's a serious enough problem for them that they've identified a permaban as the least problematic solution, knowing full well how harsh it is. But that's how major of a problem chargebacks are for vendors. It's harsh, but so is the chargeback.
 

XR.

Member
Nov 22, 2018
6,628
The idea is that they're cutting out a potential source of chargebacks, and the fact is, while it certainly isn't always the case, people do tend to be repeat offenders. It's a serious enough problem for them that they've identified a permaban as the least problematic solution, knowing full well how harsh it is. But that's how major of a problem chargebacks are for vendors. It's harsh, but so is the chargeback.
Restricting purchases is enough to combat that particular behavior. You're not targeting real scammers by restricting their access to their library.
 

rras1994

Member
Nov 4, 2017
5,752
Sorry but if that's the case, wouldn't you text/alert your mom that you are using her card?
It's so very confusing.

Anyway, my point was that people are so quick on here to use the "you are a bootlicker" type of bs, without even fully understanding what has happened.
OP says he didn't know the card was his mother's, which honestly is a bit fishy to me that he knew CVV for it but couldn't remember were it came from and didn't seem bothered to find out the account for it when he would eventually have to pay for it?

A simpler explanation would be he used his mother's credit card without her permission and expected her to either not notice or be fine with it.
 

Xun

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,328
London
If you lose the access only on what is on dispute, why anyone woundnt chargeback after finish the game?
There are better ways to handle it than to cut off all access to previously purchased games.

As mentioned in the thread the system Valve use is far better and should be adopted by everyone.
 

baconcow

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,818
Steam does it best. They unban once the debt is paid and allow the rest of the games still to be played. Taking away the entire account seems counter-productive to earning more from the individual. Pause further purchases while the account has a charge-back, sure. If someone is willing to correct their chargeback (at least if "friendly fraud"), I don't see why they shouldn't be allowed to continue purchasing content further. If someone has a history of chargebacks or there is evidence it is not a "friendly fraud", then perhaps other measures should be taken, such as locking the game in question and the account from further purchases.
 

Bowl0l

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,608
Sony. Delighting you, always.

Jokes aside, get a lawyer and start filming the journey.
 

AgeEighty

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,597
Then what are we talking about here? Because I don't see any relevant difference in semantics.

Is a specific problematic group circumventing Valve's policies somehow because they aren't taking away your games?

Scammers are part of it, but there are also people who aren't responsible with their funds who are chronically surfing the processing delays in payments, and they tend to chronically create chargebacks. It happens more than you'd think. And while those people may not be trying to pull a fast one on anybody, the damage still happens.
 

XR.

Member
Nov 22, 2018
6,628
Scammers are part of it, but there are also people who aren't responsible with their funds who are chronically surfing the processing delays in payments, and they tend to chronically create chargebacks. It happens more than you'd think. And while those people may not be trying to pull a fast one on anybody, the damage still happens.
Yes, but why isn't restricting future purchases enough to combat that particular behavior?
 

Flayer

Member
Oct 28, 2017
102
I'm sure the usual MO for chargebacks is fraudsters buying Fifa packs (it's always Fifa packs) with stolen credit card details and then chargebacks coming days later - either from banks or affected individuals. I'd guess that genuine mistakes like the OPs - storing a friend or family members credit card on the console and then buying stuff with it without informing the friend or family - is vanishingly rare in comparison and so gets caught up in all the actual fraud going on on PSN. Sony's automatic response in this particular scenario is anti-consumer but there is a problem where criminals would abuse a more lenient system, especially when there are ways to make money from short term purchases (fifa packs and selling accounts with games on).
 

L Thammy

Spacenoid
Member
Oct 25, 2017
50,134
I'm fine with chargebacks resulting in bans for future purchases since it's obviously something that can be abused if not in a particular set of circumstances, but removing access to things that the OP already bought and did not get a chargeback on is way disproportionate. People get up in arms about the term "anti-consumer", but denying people the things that they bought legitimately really seems like the most cut and dry anti-consumer thing there is. That's the entire purpose of buying things, so that we can have them.

Hopefully Sony's customer service can at least work it out. A lot of people use their parents' cards nowadays. A lot of people live with their parents nowadays. I find it hard to imagine that this sort of miscommunication hasn't happened before.
 

AgeEighty

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,597
Yes, but why isn't restricting future purchases enough to combat that particular behavior?

Not punitive enough I'd imagine. It isn't like they haven't tried a lighter hand in the past. All the major corporations didn't arrive at this policy by accident or just because they felt like screwing over customers.
 

s_mirage

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,788
Birmingham, UK
A lawyer?
For what?

Does it miss the /s ?

Not the person you are replying to, but the legal arguments surrounding companies revoking access to digital products that have already been paid for on the grounds of terms of service violations, when said companies can set their terms of service to be whatever is favourable to them, do seem to be poorly explored. I'm not a lawyer so I might be off base here, but it seems to me that a legal challenge could be interesting.

IMO, it's fair for a company to revoke access to the game the chargeback was done for and to forbid further purchases on that account (and perhaps further purchases with that payment method), but nuking entire accounts and revoking access to products legitimately paid for is indefensible IMO.
 

MisterR

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,463
I'll never understand how we can't even agree with something as simple as "revoking access to every game you've purchased with no recourse because of one chargeback is bad and shouldn't happen"

Anyways, console people, buy physical. You still can.

And yeah, this too. If you absoultely must buy a digital game on console, use exclusively wallet cards. Don't input your payment details into PSN / whatever
Or just don't do a charge back and basically accuse a company of fraud. He should be able to work it out with customer service.
 

StalinTheCat

Member
Oct 30, 2017
720
Not the person you are replying to, but the legal arguments surrounding companies revoking access to digital products that have already been paid for on the grounds of terms of service violations, when said companies can set their terms of service to be whatever is favourable to them, do seem to be poorly explored. I'm not a lawyer so I might be off base here, but it seems to me that a legal challenge could be interesting.

IMO, it's fair for a company to revoke access to the game the chargeback was done for and to forbid further purchases on that account (and perhaps further purchases with that payment method), but nuking entire accounts and revoking access to products legitimately paid for is indefensible IMO.
But the company in question (in this case SIE) even provides a way to contact them to restore the account. The legal challenge would be entirely moot, given this.

I feel that a lot of people are super fast on jumping on the "get a lawyer!" boat, without even realising how much of a world of pain would this be, especially if they already provide a way to unblock the account.
 

Deleted member 10747

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,259
I'm fine with chargebacks resulting in bans for future purchases since it's obviously something that can be abused if not in a particular set of circumstances, but removing access to things that the OP already bought and did not get a chargeback on is way disproportionate. People get up in arms about the term "anti-consumer", but denying people the things that they bought legitimately really seems like the most cut and dry anti-consumer thing there is. That's the entire purpose of buying things, so that we can have them.
Here is where the problem lies in your assumption that you get full ownership of digital goods.

What exactly are you "buying"? Or are you allowed a license to use but can be revoked the moment you bypass/ignore the terms of using their services.

This is the problem with digital goods. It's unclear what you are buying or what they consider you "buying".

Here is a article about it.

edit: This is one of the reasons why MS wanted a digital check for physical games. That way the disk isn't the license but a file is and that is something that they could revoke.
 
Last edited:

Skeff

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,628
I'm fine with chargebacks resulting in bans for future purchases since it's obviously something that can be abused if not in a particular set of circumstances, but removing access to things that the OP already bought and did not get a chargeback on is way disproportionate. People get up in arms about the term "anti-consumer", but denying people the things that they bought legitimately really seems like the most cut and dry anti-consumer thing there is. That's the entire purpose of buying things, so that we can have them.

Hopefully Sony's customer service can at least work it out. A lot of people use their parents' cards nowadays. A lot of people live with their parents nowadays. I find it hard to imagine that this sort of miscommunication hasn't happened before.

Someone has already posted in this thread a link to the page where the OP can re open there account by paying for the item they charged back so they already have a system in place.
 

Deleted member 22750

Oct 28, 2017
13,267
All these posts in here
SMH

You want to pour money into a digital future where the gatekeepers can ban your ass for a chargeback?

So let's say for whatever reason a chargeback happens. The card(bank) does it because the fraud system kicked in, you do it because the game doesn't work, you do it because you thought you could. You're fucked? You lose your account?

Sony have done a good job getting the word out to core gamers to NEVER EVER DO A CHARGEBACK. But casuals don't fucking know anything about a single chargeback killing their whole account.

fuck Sony

this entire policy needs reworked
There needs to be contact before Sony ghosts you after taking your money for years
 

Springy

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,220
Reading through this thread and I'm not sure what's worse, the scenario described by OP or the responses calling it a justified outcome. Gross.

You should not lose access to the games you paid for.
 
May 19, 2020
4,828
All these posts in here
SMH

You want to pour money into a digital future where the gatekeepers can ban your ass for a chargeback?

So let's say for whatever reason a chargeback happens. The card(bank) does it because the fraud system kicked in, you do it because the game doesn't work, you do it because you thought you could. You're fucked? You lose your account?

Sony have done a good job getting the word out to core gamers to NEVER EVER DO A CHARGEBACK. But casuals don't fucking know anything about a single chargeback killing their whole account.

fuck Sony

this entire policy needs reworked
There needs to be contact before Sony ghosts you after taking your money for years
chargeback is the nuclear option with most vendors, it is the option you choose after negotiations with customer service etc. have failed. it is not the option you would use if you are merely dissatisfied with a purchase though it can be used this way. its function is to aid against fraud. in 99% of cases it would not just "happen", it is requested by the cardholder.

i know some of yall want to make this a consumer outrage issue but the OP made some obvious dopey mistakes and decided to make it a discussion on the internet for some reason.
 

s_mirage

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,788
Birmingham, UK
But the company in question (in this case SIE) even provides a way to contact them to restore the account. The legal challenge would be entirely moot, given this.

I feel that a lot of people are super fast on jumping on the "get a lawyer!" boat, without even realising how much of a world of pain would this be, especially if they already provide a way to unblock the account.

Which requires payment. The problem I've got with this is that in cases of genuine fraud involving unauthorised use of a persons account, continued access to that account and previous purchases made on it could be entirely reliant on the good will of the company involved. What happens if they just say, "we're not refunding you, and if you do a chargeback we'll lock your account"?

Even in cases like the OP's, customers need protection for purchases they've already made. Companies being able to revoke access to products based solely upon terms of service that they themselves write is unacceptable IMO.
 

tmarg

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,696
Kalamazoo
Sony. Delighting you, always.

Jokes aside, get a lawyer and start filming the journey.
I can almost guarantee you they will have a mandatory arbitration clause in the tos. Which is far more anticonsumer than banning people over charge backs. If you guys want to get angry at corporations today, that's a better focus.
 

Deleted member 22750

Oct 28, 2017
13,267
chargeback is the nuclear option with most vendors, it is the option you choose after negotiations with customer service etc. have failed. it is not the option you would use if you are dissatisfied with a purchase. its function is to aid against fraud. in 99% of cases it would not just "happen", it is requested by the cardholder.

i know some of yall want to make this a consumer outrage issue but the OP made some obvious dopey mistakes and decided to make it a discussion on the internet for some reason.
There are many scenarios where a chargeback can happen

stop defending Sony
Just fucking stop

it's not a nuclear option it's there so that you can get help from your credit card bank when you can't get a refund under normal circumstances.

if some person buys a game on PSN and doesn't know Sony's policy towards chargebacks and they for whatever reason get a game that doesn't work on their system and Sony won't give a refund they SHOULD do a chargeback.

If they do it in the name of fraud and wanted to keep the game and get a refund then they commit a crime and Sony should contact them and ban them for playing a game they did a chargeback on.

this is anti consumer

fuck Sony

I see no reason to stand behind a flawed one sided system built to benefit Sony and potentially has devastating results for the consumer in some instances
 
May 19, 2020
4,828
There are many scenarios where a chargeback can happen

stop defending Sony
Just fucking stop

it's not a nuclear option it's there so that you can get help from your credit card bank when you can't get a refund under normal circumstances.

if some person buys a game on PSN and doesn't know Sony's policy towards chargebacks and they for whatever reason get a game that doesn't work on their system and Sony won't give a refund they SHOULD do a chargeback.

If they do it in the name of fraud and wanted to keep the game and get a refund then they commit a crime and Sony should contact them and ban them for playing a game they did a chargeback on.

this is anti consumer

fuck Sony
sorry but you doing this gamer anger cluster bomb stuff doesn't change the actual thrust and function of the chargeback as well as the OP deciding to roll the dice on his PSN account because he either: knowingly used his parents credit card and lied on the internet about it or did it accidentally as he claims (which does not actually matter when a company nukes you for a chargeback).

if all you really want to do is shout and spit into the air about the anti-consoomer meme please do it in someone else's direction, thanks.
 

Dervius

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,967
UK
How do people don't know what chargebacks are? Do you think you're condemned to pay for whatever is bought if you card is, say, cloned by a third party? I can request chargebacks with a couple of clicks through my CC's app, not that I've ever had to.

Not everyone has an actual Credit Card.

For most payment issues I have to go through my banks support channels. I do not have an automatic option to performa chargeback on either my credit or debit cards.
 

tmarg

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,696
Kalamazoo
it's not a nuclear option it's there so that you can get help from your credit card bank when you can't get a refund under normal circumstances.

It's there to protect you from fraud. Using it is a serious matter. It is not there to get your bank to help you with customer service. That's not what banks are for.

Charge backs are not a cheat code to get what you want in a dispute, and people using them as such is why companies are so draconian when they happen.
 

XR.

Member
Nov 22, 2018
6,628
Not punitive enough I'd imagine. It isn't like they haven't tried a lighter hand in the past. All the major corporations didn't arrive at this policy by accident or just because they felt like screwing over customers.
It sounds like your stance is based on the mere assumption "I'm sure they have their reasons" and if that's the core to your argument, fine, we can leave it at just that.

But the thing is, not only can they restrict purchases on one's account; they also have the ability to identify a customer by IP-address, hardware ID, credit card information, Paypal account etc. and restrict purchases from any of these.

Are these not enough to create a barrier for abuse?
 
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