My kid is mortified that the final section of Cuphead can't be reached

Dphex · Jul 29, 2020

And again, Contra III on the SNES had only a true ending when you played on hard, which also altered boss attack patterns.

instead of whining we were like "cool, they have new moves and you can only see the ending when you make it through this mode. challenge accepted!"

back in the days it was motivation for us and extended the playtime which was welcome when you liked a game.

and again, this stuff is a staple of shoot em ups, there are many arcade shmups where you see the true final boss only when you make it through the whole game with one credit(1cc). no one would say " i can only see the final boss when i make it through the whole game on one credit? the devs are elitists, screw them!"

where in the flying fuck is the problem when not every game on every difficulty setting caters to every person out there? in the case of Cuphead just play the game on normal mode and you will be fine, it is not like you have to play expert mode to see the true ending.
normal mode is not like some kind of sorcery because sure you need reaction but Cuphead is a lot about memorization which helps a lot even if you are struggling.

Smokeymicpot · Jul 29, 2020

Gives the reason to play on normal to beat the game. If they can beat the levels on easy they can do it on normal. It is about patterns.

NeoSabin · Jul 29, 2020

Weiss said:
I don't know why there's an optional easy mode in the first place in that game.

I take it as a "Tutorial/Baby steps" mode to learn how to play and get better.

Bought the game when it first came out on steam and had an infuriating but fun time. Decided to get it for PS4 because my son watched a YouTuber playing it and thought it was cool. He was discouraged at first but the two of us working together to get better and get to the end of a boss fight has gotten us high fiving and shouting WOOHOO!

Tavernade · Jul 29, 2020

I would like to point out that, for many of the bosses if not all of them, they get ridiculously easier if you have a specific load out or cheese strategy. I took advantage of that for Sekiro, and did once or twice in Cuphead too.

Deleted member 32005 · Jul 29, 2020

lmao the takes in this thread are giving me heat stroke. some kid is "mortified" that he can't beat the last level on easy is very low on the list of things to be concerned about. sounds like dad should've anticipated this and not blame the game.

also, video games don't need to be for everyone. some people can't play basketball, some people can't play COD online. who cares? what is this outrage against difficult games? This is coming from someone that can't handle cuphead difficulty at all.

it's more toxic to demand everyone cater to you than to let people enjoy different things.

Gemüsepizza · Jul 29, 2020

Dphex said:
Don´t drag disabilites into this discussion, the OP is not about disability and it is an entire different discussion and does have nothing to do with a challenging game.

besides that you can bring this to every challenge/difficulty discussion and make people look like they don´t want disabled people have fun with a game which is utter nonsense and distracting from the discussion.

example:
person a "Dark Souls needs an easy mode"
person b: "nope, it is fine as it is, practice and you will succeed"
person a: "but what is about disabled people?"

the only thing toxic is your post because you are arguing in bad faith.

I criticised some of the answers to the post, which said for example "This game isn't for everybody, and that's ok", not "This game isn't for young kids, and that's ok".

And quite honestly, you are the one who is arguing in bad faith. Having an easy mode in any game will not affect you playing the more difficult modes. But not having an easy mode will affect people who can't play this game. Just because you are ignoring the real world implications doesn't mean that they don't exist.

Professor Beef said:
Concern trolling about disabilities is something I hate when the original topic had nothing to do with disabilities.

Concern trolling? You are completely out of line.

RedStep · Jul 29, 2020

I actually agree, specifically because Cuphead is MADE to appeal to youngsters. And that's a good thing, if it interests them in old animation, etc. My 5-year-old loves Cuphead, but he can't finish a single level. So it's off-limits to him. I don't mind achievements, etc for higher difficulties (and I usually play on hard), but a "story" mode to accomodate younger/less-experienced players is never a bad thing. It expands your audience and doesn't hurt anybody.

As Yung Clifford once said, there should be an easy mode, and it should be dead-simple. Some people want that for their money, and that's cool. Cuphead especially hurts for me, because the kids have all the action figures etc but can't make much progress in the game itself.

Bknbear said:
it's more toxic to demand everyone cater to you than to let people enjoy different things.

Please explain how a Cheats > God Mode option in a menu (achievements disabled) to accomodate more players is toxic.

Deleted member 13101 · Jul 29, 2020

Bknbear said:
lmao the takes in this thread are giving me heat stroke. some kid is "mortified" that he can't beat the last level on easy is very low on the list of things to be concerned about. sounds like dad should've anticipated this and not blame the game.

also, video games don't need to be for everyone. some people can't play basketball, some people can't play COD online. who cares? what is this outrage against difficult games? This is coming from someone that can't handle cuphead difficulty at all.

it's more toxic to demand everyone cater to you than to let people enjoy different things.

Sounds like you should have read the OP, and my subsequent posts, and not complained about everything else.

As for heat stroke, you should stop posting and call an emergency medical professional. Right now.

Instro · Jul 29, 2020

Vexii said:
The fact that this game creates a mode that would appeal to less/disabled gamers and then punishes them by locking the end of the game is not only gross but shouldn't have happened in the first place.

What on Earth were they thinking?

It's a game designed in the tradition of run n guns/action games. Difficult modes are stepping stones to challenge the next difficulty. I don't see what's gross about that, and it's not something new that Cuphead did. Hidden content behind difficulty, completion percentages, etc., has existed for decades in the medium to reward players who dig or dedicate time to a game. There's nothing wrong with that, particularly in the modern era where the entirety of a game can be experienced, watched, read about, etc. via YouTube, streaming, wikis, etc.

Also I think it's really disingenuous that people use arguments regarding disabled gamers in these threads when they often have little or no personal experience in that regard. The range of disabilities that could affect the ability to play video games is wide, and game difficulty is often not at the top of the list in terms of what causes problems for people with disabilities.

Skyebaron said:
"True endings" are a shitty relic from the past and a lazy way to extend game time. It used to affect me but I just youtube the endings and give 0 fucks about it.

Lazy dev rhetoric for...designing good content? Ridiculous.

Shizuka · Jul 29, 2020

Guess I learned something new today. And I'm devastated. Guess I'm also never reaching the ending myself.

Deleted member 283 · Jul 29, 2020

Professor Beef said:
People fighting back at the (very true) phrase of a game "not being for you" will always confuse me.

What's that mean in this particular context though? It really doesn't make sense, because it seemed perfectly fine for OP's kid... until it wasn't and just arbitrarily cut off.

Claims of "it's not for you" might make more sense if it were like Dark Souls and had no such mode at all. But it does, so..

Like, people bring up "it's not an easy mode, it's for practice."

But if it were truly for practice, surely that would apply to the final levels as much as any other, as those logically need practice just as much if not moreso than any other.

Like, as far as artistic vision and stuff goes, that's not really something I personally agree with due to their not being such a thing as "objective difficulty" and that, like, one of the main reason difficulty selections exist to begin with is because one person's hard might be real easy for another person and what's easy for a different person might be the equivalent of a hard mode for someone else, but that's an entirely different subject and different thing altogether.

In this case, it does exist, and was perfectly fine. There were no problems. Until it just arbitrarily cut off.

Like, if we're going for the artistic vision thing, that's a different thing entirely, but that "vision" is already compromised by such things existing to begin with, so if that's it, why's it there at all?

Bknbear said:
it's more toxic to demand everyone cater to you than to let people enjoy different things.

This literally makes no sense at all.

Like, in addition to the "it's not for you," which I covered above, like... its' that the entire point of difficulty moves... to just let people enjoy things in a different way, which hurts no one who wants to play them normally in any way whatsoever.

Like, OP's kid was enjoying it just fine. 'Til it just arbitrarily cut off.

Who would be hurt by extending that to the entire game? Why is it cut off in the first place?

Like, if they didn't want to include such a mode at all, that would be an entirely different discussion. But they did, so at that point, it's more than fair game to criticize the implementation of such a mode.

andymcc · Jul 29, 2020

Dphex said:
and again, this stuff is a staple of shoot em ups, there are many arcade shmups where you see the true final boss only when you make it through the whole game with one credit(1cc). no one would say " i can only see the final boss when i make it through the whole game on one credit? the devs are elitists, screw them!"

if people actually played actual STGs on this forum, I bet they would complain. i think the most elegant "easy mode" solution is actually ones that let you use Autobomb.

Schlomo · Jul 29, 2020

Accessibility is one thing, but I do appreciate if games offer substantial rewards to those who play on the hardest difficulty/completionists etc. It's a tough decision for a dev for sure.

Deleted member 13101 · Jul 29, 2020

Professor Beef said:
Concern trolling about disabilities is something I hate when the original topic had nothing to do with disabilities.

If someone is joining the conversation and has experience with disabilities related to seeing a game through to the end, they are welcome to speak about it.

The assumption that anyone who posts on the forum is performative in some way is going to bring down this forum eventually. It's already happened a few times in this thread.

Skyebaron · Jul 29, 2020

Instro said:
Lazy dev rhetoric for...designing good content? Ridiculous.

Yeah, gatekeeping only the worthy for your minute of content by making them play through the whole thing again cause they dont meet your standards of what a gamer should be is lazy and stupid.

Professor Beef · Jul 29, 2020

Gemüsepizza said:
Concern trolling? You are completely out of line.

I'm being 100% sincere when I ask you, right now, how it is out of line to point that out in the comment I replied to. Because this *always* gets brought up in discussions about difficulty as a "gotcha" argument especially when the original topic(s) make no mention of people with disabilities.

EDIT:

Wonderment said:
If someone is joining the conversation and has experience with disabilities related to seeing a game through to the end, they are welcome to speak about it.

The assumption that anyone who posts on the forum is performative in some way is going to bring down this forum eventually. It's already happened a few times in this thread.

this makes more sense

Gen X · Jul 29, 2020

Old man voice

Back in my day we didn't have saves, codes or continues but instead we had to memorize levels and replay them. Died on level 3.4? Back to 1.1 for you and git gud.

Deleted member 32005 · Jul 29, 2020

To deride something because you can't participate in it is narcissistic and cynical.

if something is specifically excluding you, sure, but to say any game that lacks an "auto-complete" mode is exclusionary is out of touch with reality.

justiceiro · Jul 29, 2020

Am I reading something wrong, or there are people implying that if you don't intend to make the entirety of the game available on easy mode, you shouldn't even bother? I mean, if you are willing to give up part of the experience in playing in a easier mode, it's weird that there are parts of the experience you feel entitled to.

Ascenion · Jul 29, 2020

I mean I'm of the mindset that Cuphead's easy mode isn't a mode. It more or less a learn the boss fights run for you to then go back and actually finish. The game is upfront about you NOT getting the soul contracts on simple. Also I don't see accessibility as having much to do with difficulty. As long as the game provides any player with ample tools to succeed and failure solely rests on your skill, I think it's fine. Some people aren't gonna be good at Cuphead and that's fine.

Sixfortyfive · Jul 29, 2020

Professor Beef said:
Concern trolling about disabilities is something I hate when the original topic had nothing to do with disabilities.

It's one of the most consistently disgusting arguments that regularly crops up on gaming side here.

Just an absolutely selfish demand that someone cater their work specifically to them, couched in a disingenuous accessibility argument.

denx · Jul 29, 2020

I love Cuphead, but yeah, Easy mode is a joke in this game and I don't understand why it even exists in its current form.

AllBizness · Jul 29, 2020

Wonderment said:
Yep, you know why - busting your butt for hours to finish the fights, on simple, doesn't actually get you the soul contracts needed to get to the final.

My kid found inspiration and motivation to self-challenge from this game, to help things along during this uncertain time.

This will be gotten over eventually, and will probably beat a few stages on regular here and there. But in an age where there are too many "that's life" lessons about disappointment being learned in real time, this didn't need to be one of them.

This is really a shame especially in an era where more and more games are becoming more accessible.

balgajo · Jul 29, 2020

If he is curious enough show him the real ending on youtube. I did this with Dark Souls 3. I beat it with the default ending but didn't want to waste my time doing the necessary stuff for the other endings.
Usually those kind of endings are a reward for people to achieve great deeds in those games. If it was easy to achieve those people would be the excluded ones.

gravitationsfeld · Jul 29, 2020

andymcc said:
do you think there is a difficulty slider tool that automatically implements that or something lmao

No, but adding that in code is absolutely trivial.

ViewtifulJC said:
Have you played Cuphead? Do you understand how the dice palace works? It really ain't that simple lol. Especially for a small team that, to this day, is still working on a DLC they announced over two years ago.

The work is drawing all the backgrounds and animating the characters, not in adding some game logic to make it easier. Please.

Natsume Soseki · Jul 29, 2020

I agree, all levels should be available in easy mode. It allows more players to experience all the content and doesn't impact players who would prefer to play on higher difficulties.

Very dismaying to see people calling this fairly innocuous opinion toxic, entitled, and selfish.

Cenauru · Jul 29, 2020

A game made to be hard including an easy mode then saying "fuck you for wanting an easier mode" when you select it is purposely gatekeeping, rather than just being a hard game. Instead it's just there for Gamer Ego points, based on the kind of people I see on the internet going out of their way to gloat on others complaining about the game not being beatable on easy.

I'm also amazed at how incredibly bothered some people are at the prospect of a game being beatable on its included easy mode, it's hilarious.

MaverickHunterAsh · Jul 29, 2020

Yeah, that kind of gatekeeping -- and honestly, just gatekeeping in general -- really sucks. Cuphead is a wonderful game but that gatekeeping aspect really brings it down IMO. Essential content like true endings should never be locked behind difficulty walls. Accessibility above all, all the time and every time. Sorry your kid's had that experience, OP.

andymcc · Jul 29, 2020

gravitationsfeld said:
No, but adding that in code is absolutely trivial.

"adding that code in" yeah... hrmmm

MaverickHunterAsh said:
Yeah, that kind of gatekeeping -- and honestly, just gatekeeping in general -- really sucks. Cuphead is a wonderful game but that gatekeeping aspect really brings it down IMO. Essential content like true endings should never be locked behind difficulty walls. Accessibility above all, all the time and every time. Sorry your kid's had that experience, OP.

should "True endings" be held behind by ANYTHING then? could you make the same argument for length? i can put persona 5 royal on the easiest difficulty setting, but how much time am I going to have to invest in the game to see everything? how many replays to max every social link?

ViewtifulJC · Jul 29, 2020

gravitationsfeld said:
No, but adding that in code is absolutely trivial.

The work is drawing all the backgrounds and animating the characters, not in adding some game logic to make it easier. Please.

Damn bro maybe with your supreme game development and programming knowledge you could get a job with Studio MDHR huh? Show them kids a thing or two

Greywaren · Jul 29, 2020

It's really shitty that they did this, honestly. Why would you want to stop someone who bought your game from enjoying all of it just because they are less skilled?

gravitationsfeld · Jul 29, 2020

andymcc said:
"adding that code in" yeah... hrmmm

Dude, it's literally a scalar on the damage value. It's trivial. I've seen enough game code to have an educated opinion on this. It's not hard and not time consuming. At. All.

Aureon · Jul 29, 2020

A small part of the game being kept as an incentive to try higher difficulty in a game that's absolutely about mastery is fine.

The issue about difficulty is that the too hard is very visible - This game is frustrating because it's too hard - but the flip is subtler: This game is boring because it's too easy

How old is your kid, OP? You sure he doesn't want to try the game as intended?
Kids can be absolute monsters at games you'd consider too hard for them.

At some live events we ran for our upcoming pvp title, we had kids as young as 7 slaying, it was impressive

gravitationsfeld said:
Dude, it's literally a scalar on the damage value. It's trivial. I've seen enough game code to have an educated opinion on this. It's not hard and not time consuming. At. All.

Yeah, no, you don't.

You can't go rampage gung-ho on the tuning of a game and expect the design doesn't fall apart

Dinoegg_96 · Jul 29, 2020

Djavanes said:
The new generation are afraid of hard games. When i was a kid, the games only had one difficulty, and sometimes was insane hard. Deal with it.

Damn, we got a true Gamer over here lol

EDIT: Holy fuck, the amount of certified G*mers in this thread is amazng.

Deleted member 22630 · Jul 29, 2020

gravitationsfeld said:
Dude, it's literally a scalar on the damage value. It's trivial. I've seen enough game code to have an educated opinion on this. It's not hard and not time consuming. At. All.

Yeah as long as their code base is not a piece of shit it's trivial.

andymcc · Jul 29, 2020

gravitationsfeld said:
Dude, it's literally a scalar on the damage value. It's trivial. I've seen enough game code to have an educated opinion on this. It's not hard and not time consuming. At. All.

Let's say you're right (you're not, but let's just say you are), enemy damage output and player damage output are not the only things that make games difficult. Do you fill all chasms where you would fall? Do you make instant respawn points? Do you create checkpoints with every screen?

Timeaisis · Jul 29, 2020

Wait, why is there an easy mode if you can't actually beat the game with it? lol

Rosebud · Jul 29, 2020

andymcc said:
should "True endings" be held behind by ANYTHING then? could you make the same argument for length? i can put persona 5 royal on the easiest difficulty setting, but how much time am I going to have to invest in the game to see everything? how many replays to max every social link?

"True endings" in games with multiple endings are bs anyway, because what's the point in making many ways to play, but only 1 is right?

It's even worse in games like Batman where you need to get every single collectable, I just won't play it at this point.

Deleted member 56306 · Jul 29, 2020

andymcc said:
Let's say you're right (you're not, but let's just say you are), enemy damage output and player damage output are not the only things that make games difficult. Do you fill all chasms where you would fall? Do you make instant respawn points? Do you create checkpoints with every screen?

To be fair, tweaking damage is one of the things that the "easy mode" mod does.

Assist mode

This mod is inspired by Celeste's assist mode and intends to ease the game difficulty by granting additional HP (6HP instead of 3HP), weapon damage boost (1.5x) and coins (60) to the player. Supports

www.nexusmods.com

It's probably not "trivial" or anything like that - but it is an option that someone did take to make the game easier.

Mr Spasiba · Jul 29, 2020

gravitationsfeld said:
No, but adding that in code is absolutely trivial.

No shade but in my career I've found that this exact phrase is the perfect indication of when someone has absolutely no clue what they're talking about.

gravitationsfeld · Jul 29, 2020

andymcc said:
Let's say you're right (you're not, but let's just say you are), enemy damage output and player damage output are not the only things that make games difficult. Do you fill all chasms where you would fall? Do you make instant respawn points? Do you create checkpoints with every screen?

We are talking about a minimum amount of effort to make an easier mode versus just being a dick about it and not doing anything at all. Ideally, yes, we should also give players with less coordination to pass platforming more easily. TLOU2 has slowdown for this, which is also not hard to do.

Deleted member 22630 · Jul 29, 2020

andymcc said:
Let's say you're right (you're not, but let's just say you are), enemy damage output and player damage output are not the only things that make games difficult. Do you fill all chasms where you would fall? Do you make instant respawn points? Do you create checkpoints with every screen?

Damage is simple, what you're proposing is something else in terms of workload.

Musubi · Jul 29, 2020

Timeaisis said:
Wait, why is there an easy mode if you can't actually beat the game with it? lol

Because its a practice mode.

andymcc · Jul 29, 2020

Tommcatt said:
To be fair, tweaking damage is one of the things that the "easy mode" mod does.

Assist mode

This mod is inspired by Celeste's assist mode and intends to ease the game difficulty by granting additional HP (6HP instead of 3HP), weapon damage boost (1.5x) and coins (60) to the player. Supports

www.nexusmods.com

It's probably not "trivial" or anything like that - but it is an option that someone did take to make the game easier.

Yeah, but I'd imagine the developers wouldn't be too happy with the balance. I mean, it's cool mods can do stuff like this but at some point-- there is creative intent as well.

gravitationsfeld said:
We are talking about a minimum amount of effort to make an easier mode versus just being a dick about it and not doing anything at all.

lol at the bolded. that's exactly why they do it.

Krauser Kat · Jul 29, 2020

gamers: games are art
also gamers: Arists are elitist for making a game that doesn't appeal or cater to me.

to the op: sorry your kid got played, that's bummer.

Rosebud · Jul 29, 2020

Krauser Kat said:
gamers: games are art
also gamers: Arists are elitist for making a game that doesn't appeal or cater to me.

to the op: sorry your kid got played, that's bummer.

When you buy a book, there's no skill or interpretation tests between chapters. Same with movies.

This has nothing to do with being "art", devs can do whatever they want, but posters acting like only true gamers are worthy of a ending... c'mon.

Deleted member 22630 · Jul 29, 2020

Mr Spasiba said:
No shade but in my career I've found that this exact phrase is the perfect indication of when someone has absolutely no clue what they're talking about.

At the very least if you want to make quality software it's going to require a Regression Test. The change itself is simple now everything else surrounding it depends on so many things.

andymcc · Jul 29, 2020

Rosebud said:
When you buy a book, there's no skill or interpretation tests between chapters. Same with movies.

I think reading Thomas Pynchon is probably a lot harder than reading Stephanie Meyer.

I think watching Seven Samurai is going to be harder for most modern audiences than End Game.

Deleted member 56306 · Jul 29, 2020

andymcc said:
Yeah, but I'd imagine the developers wouldn't be too happy with the balance. I mean, it's cool mods can do stuff like this but at some point-- there is creative intent as well.

I mean sure, but balance in a single player game isn't exactly at the top of every gamer's priority list. Again, I'm not saying any dev should be forced to include an easy mode. However, it would be nice if a player could at least "complete" the game.

I think reading Thomas Pynchon is probably a lot harder than reading Stephanie Meyer.

I think watching Seven Samurai is going to be harder for most modern audiences than End Game.

But a person can skip to the end of those books. Or read chapters in any order. This comparison is ultimately going to be pointless.

Rosebud · Jul 29, 2020

andymcc said:
I think reading Thomas Pynchon is probably a lot harder than reading Stephanie Meyer.

I think watching Seven Samurai is going to be harder for most modern audiences than End Game.

Yes, but the full book/movie is still available to the person who bought it. Games aren't.

Rockstar games let you skip sections when you die X times, so the whole game is available to you, even if they don't have difficulty settings.

My kid is mortified that the final section of Cuphead can't be reached

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