My friend wants to study computer science to make games but hasn't taken a math course since high school and can't stand the subject. Is there hope?

[InstantN00dles]

I did Business Administration and skipped all the math i possibly could and still get my associates. I changed schools and took Computer Science which meant had to take all the necessary math classes. Pre-Calculus, Calc I, Calc II and so on. Passed all on my first attempt.

What your friend wants to do is definitely doable. It won't be easy though, I did all the homework which is usually optional but completing them gives you extra credit and i spent a whole lot of hours in tutoring.

 

[LudicrousSpeed]

Echoing that a Computer Science degree is going to mean a lot of math.

I did a CS degree, and in the process of that, I took:

Calculus I and II (my school ran an accelerated program on Calculus that was the equivalent of I/II and III/differential equations, so this is steeper than it may seem)
Physics I and II (all Calculus-based instead of Algebra-based)
Discrete Math I and II
Linear Algebra
Statistics and Probability

And more courses that sound less like math but are kinda fundamentally math-based:
Data Structures and Algorithm Analysis I and II
Fundamentals of Programming Languages (which got into compiler design and formal grammars)
Automata Theory

If it was just "I don't like math" you might be able to power through. If HS algebra was giving him trouble, though, I'm going to say that pursuing a CS degree is going to be throwing him into the deep end.

 

[Deffers]

Honestly, you should ask your friend what kind of game dev stuff he wants to get up to anyway. He's gonna be fucked if pre-calc's a problem if he ever wants to, say, write a shader and he hates math. Any projectile paths are going to involve math. 3D modeling stuff maybe doesn't require math but is vastly improved by knowing math. Anything involving forward or inverse kinematics is going to involve the copious use of matrices. Lots of freeform pathing stuff involves something like algebra.

Honestly, it's not as easy to get away from math as it looks if you want to develop something remotely ambitious. And if he wants to do NONE of those things? Most of that comp. sci. degree is going to go to waste.

 

[low-G]

So far I haven't used as much as arithmetic addition in my current software engineer position...

But I did do Calc 2 and Linear Algebra in my education, not to mention the less mathy maths.

 

[Kickfister]

Tough to say. I don't necessarily like math, but I have a comp sci degree. As far as capability goes, anybody that can add, subtract, multiply, and divide is capable of starting with college algebra, so he shouldn't be discouraged from trying. The real question is, does he like thinking about problems logically if provided proper context for doing so? That's the main difference between math in programming and math for the sake of math. While I hate working through math problems just cause, I love that type of thinking if I have a project I'm working on.

If his school offers a visual basic course, that would be a good way to test the waters and may even count as a general computer stuff credit (real technical term right there). I personally knew it was what I wanted to do after that course, and many realized it wasn't for them.

Also, going generally into comp sci probably isn't the best path for getting into game development. He'll need to be really good at teaching himself some fairly complicated things or get an internship lined up or something.

 

[Mobu]

Holy shit. That's a lot of math.

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Maybe but, linear, stats, discrete and calc 1 are easy

 

[Mobu]

OP, he needs to know discrete math atleast, and linear algebra if he wants to get into graphics

 

[NineConsonants]

Maybe but, linear, stats, discrete and calc 1 are easy

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Discrete Math becomes fun when you start to see the fun in proving everything with proofs by contradiction.

 

[Charismagik]

If you can't handle the logic in math, then coding probably isn't your thing

 

[Deleted member 1445]

If you can't handle the logic in math, then coding probably isn't your thing

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This is nonsense. You have no idea what coding is in practice if you can say this.

 

[Deleted member 31873]

You'll need to do some maths, but it's not as much as you might expect. I hated maths and got through a CS degree and into a software developer position. The nice thing about programming is the computer does the maths for you.

 

[jman2050]

It's interesting because algorithm coding involves a ton of application of math, but this application bears little resemblance to the more formalized way math is taught in dedicated courses if you aren't paying attention. In my admittedly unprofessional opinion, coding is a great way to learn and apply the core mathematical principles that underlie a lot of higher level math disciplines, but not so much a good way to study said disciplines in a more generalized manner. You'd learn how to use Calculus, Linear Algebra and the like in the context of coding and designing algorithms but have difficulty transferring that knowledge to other career areas without more rigorous study.

 

[the_bromo_tachi]

Depending on the field, you might not even need math, besides basic algebra, but you're going to need math for a comp sci degree. Good luck in the algorithms course where everything is just proofs. Everything else was easy until statistics and that algorithms course.

 

[Deleted member 9237]

Holy shit. That's a lot of math.

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It's not tho, that's like the bare minimum of college level math, except calc 2 maybe

 

[medinaria]

honestly, the biggest issue is going to be the game-centric focus. like, unless he's finding a game development degree that's all just done through unity or whatever (please don't do this), he's probably going to have to take a computer graphics or computer animation course. and if you've ever wanted to rotate something in 3D space on a computer... you get to do fun shit like quaternions. computer graphics is possibly the most math-intensive part of computer science, really. (could also be machine learning/statistics stuff as well.) and, at least at my university, that's a required course if you're doing the game design branch.

that being said, some people end up really liking upper-level math even if they disliked algebra or whatever, so it could work out. but any good degree from a good university is going to require a lot of it.

 

[dragonbane]

For game dev you will likely need the math, unless you pursue a scripter position or something. For something like web dev you barely need maths day to day

 

[Beer Monkey]

I was a successful professional programmer including multimedia, graphics, UI, etc for 17 years with a lowly Information Systems degree that didn't require anywhere near the math that the Comp Sci program that the same uni had. Calculus was never my thing, though I did struggle through a year of it while I was in comp sci (the comp sci degree at my department was so close to a double major that over half the grads just got a double major in CS and math).

And yes I coded in assembler no problem and can do boolean math in my head and think in base two and base 16 but Calc and anything above still kicks my butt.

You don't need to be a math whiz to be an ace coder. Period.

I'm now in data architecture and database administration, needed to do something different, got tired of development, may go back at some point but probably not because 'learn to code' has glutted the field, coders are super easy to find and good ones aren't. Good gosh are top data people in constant demand though.

Side story: I was once offered a job at a game studio owned by a major publisher and they basically wanted me to work 50% more hours for half the pay. Be wary of the game industry.

 

[collige]

Yes. He'll likely follow the same path as me of fucking hating math, studying hard to make it through, getting his degree, wanting to do games because it's his dream, then taking a web dev job because it pays better, less crunch, being a lot happier and starting to work on indie games as a hobby.

I started this post as a joke but that was the path of me and like 10 different people in my program :P

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No lies detected. I did the exact program OPs friend is looking at and I'm a web dev now

 

[finalflame]

This is nonsense. You have no idea what coding is in practice if you can say this.

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I don't think he's saying it maps 1:1, but there are definitely logical patterns used in software engineering/problem solving that might prove challenging if you can't competently wrap your head around HS-level algebra. Not that it involves algebra, it generally doesn't, but you are still solving types of problems in the realm of mathematical problem solving/logical reasoning.

There's a variety of ways in which this breaks down, especially with webdev, but still. I wouldn't send someone with difficulty in HS math towards a compsci degree.

 

[Cronogear]

While quite a few math classes are required for Comp Sci, it's really not all that bad. I'm a CS major who plans to graduate in spring and also someone who hates calculus with a passion of a thousand suns. I got by.

The actual act of programming is much more about logic, not math.

However, if he struggles with even lower end math, like algebra, it's gonna be a hard time getting a degree.

 

[SeanBoocock]

I think it will depend on what the requirements for his CS program are. In practice the most important parts of math for a game(play) programmer are linear algebra, geometry, and logic. Statistics and to a lesser extent "foundations"/analysis are also valuable. Basic calculus is important - understanding the relationship between position, velocity and acceleration for instance - but much of it isn't used outside of certain specialties like graphics.

If your friend is passionate about pursuing a career in software development (even outside of games), I wouldn't let his past experience with math discourage him. Even within the games industry, there are plenty of software engineering opportunities that don't involve a ton of math (ie backend services or UI programming).

Best of luck to your friend, hope things work out for him.

 

[Deleted member 1445]

I don't think he's saying it maps 1:1, but there are definitely logical patterns used in software engineering/problem solving that might prove challenging if you can't competently wrap your head around HS-level algebra. Not that it involves algebra, it generally doesn't, but you are still solving types of problems in the realm of mathematical problem solving/logical reasoning.

There's a variety of ways in which this breaks down, especially with webdev, but still. I wouldn't send someone with difficulty in HS math towards a compsci degree.

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Yeah that's just not true from my assessment, especially when you're talking college level math. I get the feel that a lot of programmers here can't see beyond their own experience, or they feel the need to retroactively justify their curriculum. Unless you are going in to the direction of making base elements that haven't been made before, such as new or faster algorithms, writing data structures and frameworks in a new language which doesn't have those in its framework, writing new languages, compilers, etc., you're not really going to come in to contact with levels of specified logic or skills that would require you to master math and logic classes. In the rest of the field, it's enough to figure things out as you go along, you don't need a mastery of math or logic -- other aspects become more important when you're developing those software systems.

 

[i hate cheaters]

it depends on the exact curriculum, but:

not knowing algebra would be a huge struggle whereas someone can probably get by without knowing calculus

 

[Firaga]

He can always make board games.

 

[Sage]

If you can't handle the logic in math, then coding probably isn't your thing

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And the award for stupidest thing I've read this year goes to..

 

[Elfotografoalocado]

If he doesn't like mathematics, he shouldn't take Computer Science.

 

[Charismagik]

I don't think he's saying it maps 1:1, but there are definitely logical patterns used in software engineering/problem solving that might prove challenging if you can't competently wrap your head around HS-level algebra. Not that it involves algebra, it generally doesn't, but you are still solving types of problems in the realm of mathematical problem solving/logical reasoning.

There's a variety of ways in which this breaks down, especially with webdev, but still. I wouldn't send someone with difficulty in HS math towards a compsci degree.

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That is exactly what I meant. Thanks for wording it better heh

 

[Deleted member 12790]

Math isnt all that important for most things. Logic is. Speaking from someone who completed Comp Sci and Software Engineering.

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this, although depending on what type of applications you work on, trigonometry, geometry and and understanding of vector calculus are handy.

Honestly. Though one can argue learning math helps you develop logical thinking. Funny enough I know several people on my team who learned how to program then started enjoying math because they were able to actually understand how to approach problem solving in math as they do it daily in with programming.

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This is how it went for me. Programming lead me to math. Even today, for certain mathematical notations, like Sigma, I think of them in programming terms. The most mind blowing class I took in college, for me, was Boolean Algebra.

 

[Deleted member 1445]

this, although depending on what type of applications you work on, trigonometry, geometry and and understanding of vector calculus are handy.

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Pretty much yeah. We need to separate the craft of making software, from the things that you make with it. Making software is a huge field in and of itself, parts of it, the lower level parts, do require logic, math not necessarily. For example, writing a new programming language, writing the base framework for a programming language, writing compilers, and so on. For the rest, for making software itself, you don't inherently need any logic or math, from then on it depends on the problem that you're trying to solve, what is it that you're trying to make. Most business logic is really trivial, that's already a huge portion of all code that's being made. There are many things that you need math for as well, but again, it's all part of the product that you're making. If you're developing a game engine, you're gonna need to know spatial math, because that's part of the product. Complex financial stuff? Gonna need to know financial math. Encoding/decoding for video? You get the picture.

There are lots of products that require knowledge of math, but none of it is really inherent to the craft of software itself, only logic really. Even for logic, it only gets complex as you get to the lower level parts, basic data structures, and so on. 99% of the time these have already been written, and you can go by an entire career without writing any of this yourself.

 

[Ashlette]

He can manage, but he will have to seek aid from math tutors.

 

[RestEerie]

maybe your friend is just can't stand the stinky decimal system. He'll probably turn around after he is exposed to the wonders of binary, Octal & hexadecimal.

1+1=10, baby!!! That's where it's at!!!

 

[EJS]

It depends how deep your friend wants to go into it. You can make games without much of a math background.

By the way, I did what your friend is thinking of doing. The good thing about CS is that it's a HUGE field. I went into it wanting to make games but I pivoted from it completely. There's so many awesome things you can work on. For the majority of most coding, I feel like a good background in Algebra and Algebra II is your best bet. You know how many times I've used Calculus? 0.

Basically, your friend has no reason not to try because he might find something he loves more in the process, something with less complex math. It's kind of up to your friend to learn outside of school too. If he finds something he wants to pivot too during his CS pursuit (web development, Android development, etc) then he can kind of adjust his scope and just get through these tough math courses without having to kill himself to absorb the material.

To be honest, the math courses aren't that hard. They're annoying but I will say Discrete Math is a good course because it forces your mind to think differently.

 

[Sqrt]

There are lots of products that require knowledge of math, but none of it is really inherent to the craft of software itself, only logic really. Even for logic, it only gets complex as you get to the lower level parts, basic data structures, and so on. 99% of the time these have already been written, and you can go by an entire career without writing any of this yourself.

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I guess I have not idea what does very high level coding looks like, but the basic task of writing a 'for loop' involves a college level concept of mathematical induction. Basic logic is stuff like "all cats are mammals, Garfield is a cat. Is Garfield a mammal?" which is basic propositional Calculus and is what is tough in high school and bellow.

My guess is that the main issue is that people don't really know much about maths thus fail to make the connections. Calculus is just one of the many fields of mathematics.

 

[napkins]

I wish I had a better understanding of trigonometry. I'm making a game right now and my lack of fully understanding is slowing me down. It really helps to have a general understanding, but it is possible to learn from examples and also take what you can and apply to your own work even if you don't fully understand it.
I know the situations that will require more advanced math even if I don't know exactly how to work it out myself.

 

[Deleted member 1445]

I guess I have not idea what does very high level coding looks like, but the basic task of writing a for loop involves a college level concept of mathematical induction. Basic logic is stuff like all cats are mammals, Garfield is a cat. Is Garfield a mammal? which is basic propositional Calculus and is what is tough in high school and bellow.

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You can explain those simple concepts without needing to have dedicated classes for it. College level doesn't really mean anything when it's so very basic and simple. I mean, pretty much all the basic concepts of programming are quite easy to understand, there's just a lot of them. You don't need to be able to write complex formalized logic in order to be competent at making software systems.

 

[Sqrt]

You can explain those simple concepts without needing to have dedicated classes for it. College level doesn't really mean anything when it's so very basic and simple. I mean, pretty much all the basic concepts of programming are quite easy to understand, there's just a lot of them. You don't need to be able to write complex formalized logic in order to be competent at making software systems.

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But a programing language is a complex formalized logic system!

As someone who has been involved in teaching at college level for Mathematics and Computer Science and Engineering, I find that instructing someone the basics of programming is no less challenging than instructing them in introductory abstract algebra courses like introduction to group theory. In fact, I would say that being able to code an Arkanoid clone is harder , and involves more Mathematical maturity, than most of the first half courses of a BSc in Mathematics curricula.

 

[Filipus]

I feel his struggle is more about having a degree to backup his dream to work in the game industry.

Honestly, there are a TON of other useful, yet easier, majors he could choose from that will not make him feel he's stuck in the deepest parts of hell.

Maybe he should first of all take like... 6 months off? And just straight try to make games. Let him think about getting a degree after that, maybe he will discover that doing games full-time is maybe not what he really wants.

Having a job that enables you to work on your hobbies can be great and that can be accomplished with many other degrees.

 

[MDSVeritas]

You don't need to be in love with math to be a great game programmer (I assume your friends intends to be a programmer given the Comp Sci route at least), but you will definitely need to know math. Game programming differs greatly between specializations and studios, but from my experience you're gonna start running into consistent situations where you're lost if you don't have your fundamentals set. Discrete Math, general logic, and linear algebra are things I come across in a day-to-day and one way or another I think if you intend to work in the programming field in the industry you should know it.

With that said, just because you need to know it does not mean every job is using it all the time. Plenty of programming positions are not heavily rooted in math work all the time. There's a lot to love even if you don't click with math. As someone who never super cared for the subject before college I've come to a pleasant truce with math where it's not a source of direct happiness or anything in my work but I focus on the elements of programming and game dev I really like and math enables some of those facets.

 

[Deleted member 1441]

I think I had the same thought process when I was younger. I wanted to work in video game development, but never cared for Math or thought I was especially good at it.

But I would tell your friend not to get discouraged because there are various other career fields involved in video games. From planning, to execution, marketing, etc. As a Ad guy working for a VG company myself, there is so many different kind of careers in gaming out there worth looking into. Just go check a career page for a VG company and you'll be surprised at all the different kinds of things you can do.

 

[Pegasus Actual]

Someone that struggles with high school or community college level algebra shouldn't be going for Comp Sci or programming in general IMO.

 

[Vertpin]

While quite a few math classes are required for Comp Sci, it's really not all that bad. I'm a CS major who plans to graduate in spring and also someone who hates calculus with a passion of a thousand suns. I got by.

The actual act of programming is much more about logic, not math.

However, if he struggles with even lower end math, like algebra, it's gonna be a hard time getting a degree.

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I don't have anything to really contribute to this thread, especially after reading through all the pages...but I just wanted to say congrats. :) I bet you are so excited!

 

[sca]

What are some popular alternatives?

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There is a BS in Software Development if he' isn't too confident in higher level math, at least at the school I'm going to (WGU). I haven't seen the same option at other universities around me, so YMMV.

Another option would be to get an IT degree or job + certs for their career, then code/make games as a hobby.

 

[Deleted member 4037]

Youre going to have to take some math, im not sure how much goes into games specifically, but for me I had to take some calc, linear algebra, and proofs for a degree. Proofs specifically is something used to determine algorithm efficiency which is important.

 

[Vertpin]

Is there any update OP? Just curious, hope your friend is doing well. :)

 

[raygcon]

14 years coding experience. Barely use any advance math in my job. Most of the time just simple calculation. Well unless u write game engine or AI I guess its not neccesssery. To make game most of the time u just use existing tool. Not making one.

 

[Sir_Bumble_Bee]

Is there any update OP? Just curious, hope your friend is doing well. :)

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So I showed him this thread and gave him an honest roadmap of the trials and obstacles he will have to overcome. After some deep consideration on his part, he decided to pursue a different field of study. He's switching to Media & Communications Studies.

His end goal is really to just work on games and to potentially help run a studio.

 

[Static]

You don't need a csc degree to make games and you need math to get a csc degree. If he really wants the degree he can absolutely go and do it. It's just going to be a pain in the ass. Math isn't beyond anybody.

FWIW I have actually found Khan Academy tremendously unhelpful through my degree. Paul's Notes is the real shit.

EDIT: Oh man just realized how old this thread is.

 

[mhayes86]

So I showed him this thread and gave him an honest roadmap of the trials and obstacles he will have to overcome. After some deep consideration on his part, he decided to pursue a different field of study. He's switching to Media & Communications Studies.

His end goal is really to just work on games and to potentially help run a studio.

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Still going to UMBC, though? I'm an alumni, and the school is more geared towards STEM. They have been opening up to the arts and liberal arts over the years, but I don't know how good the programs are. Hopefully your friend is a Maryland resident for that in-state tuition.

 

[Schreckstoff]

I think school records matter very little for tertiary education fwiw

 

[Commedieu]

Tell him to use that CS degree and get a far higher paying job outside of game dev (web/backend). Better job security and chances are wont need a high level of math.

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.

Better hours too. Make games on the side until you can make that your full-time gig.

Deva are used and abused.