My Friend Just Learned She's a TERF

[Aske]

I just had a really interesting conversation with a close friend about J. K. Rowling's TERFism. My friend is a gay woman who feels that while trans women are unquestionably born women, they're often women who the rest of the world treats as male for much of their lives. Her argument against trans women in the feminist space isn't about bathrooms, it's about feeling like the experience of cisgender women and trans women who transition later in life aren't comparable. She said it's like growing up in a war zone from which some people flee: the ones that stay are traumatized in one way, and the ones that escape are traumatized in another; but neither can speak to the other's experience, even though both groups are survivors of the same war.

My understanding is that third wave feminist philosophy would highlight the difference in experiences between trans and cis women, as well as those between women of colour and white women, or women living with disabilities and able-bodied women, etc; and specifically use them to prevent the exclusion of any women from modern feminist spaces. My friend's rebuttal to this is that all those other types of cisgender women still share the experience of being treated like women by the rest of the world, while a trans woman might go fifty years being treated like a man; and thus cannot speak for women because of this lack of experience. Her feelings about this were actually prompted by recently hearing a trans woman who transitioned late in life speaking on behalf of all women in a feminist space.

I'd argue that inclusivity is always better than exclusivity, especially when it comes to marginalized groups; but at the same time, I'm a cisgender man, and I can't speak for women. I'm glad the prevailing wisdom amongst progressives is that first and foremost, trans women are women, period; and differing experiences are explored and celebrated in third wave intersectional feminism.

How would Era folk debate my friend's stance; and indeed the stance of other TERFs with similar thoughts that are more cogent than Rowling's "sex is real tho!" argument?

Hopefully my post history speaks for itself, but I'd still like to just say trans women are fucking women, and I'm making this thread with nothing but love for trans folk. I hope this leads to some interesting discussion about the best way to discuss this facet of transphobia with a view to changing people's minds.

 

[BDS]

There is nothing that serves as more of an equalizer than money. Money allows you to buy your way out of just about any form of bigotry. JK Rowling is worth billions of dollars and therefore has the money to buy her way out of any meaningful form of oppression or sexism, and therefore has an almost entirely different lived experience than any other woman.

Does this mean JK Rowling is no longer a woman?

 

[DGenerator]

As long as she makes an intriguing RPG, unfortunately, 61.2% of ERA (as of this post) will find a way to pretend that viewpoint isn't enough of a problem.

As you get older, you come to realize there's a time to have debates and there's a time to move on from the relationship based on serious differences of "opinion."

Hope there's still time for you and your friend.

 

[Captjohnboyd]

There is nothing that serves as more of an equalizer than money. Money allows you to buy your way out of just about any form of bigotry. JK Rowling is worth billions of dollars and therefore has the money to buy her way out of any meaningful form of oppression or sexism, and therefore has an almost entirely different lived experience than any other woman.

Does this mean JK Rowling is no longer a woman?

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I'm not nearly as familiar with the finer points of the issue as I'd like to be but this does a fantastic job of summing it up succinctly. Stealing it

 

[Heynongman!]

Lemme preface this with I'm a straight cis male and this is all based on my understanding of these things and not any personal experience:

We probably shouldn't compare the struggles of cisgender women to trans women that transition later in life. Both different struggles, but I'm sure both very much fucking suck for the individual.

Everyone knows women have it very hard, but I'd say imagine you're a woman, born as a male and being constantly misgendered, and a good chunk of society fuckin' sucks and misunderstands or straight up vilifies you and people like you. Doesn't sound very fun, right? Again, not to say one is worse than the other or vice-versa. Just maybe your friend should have some perspective.

 

[Antrax]

women still share the experience of being treated like women by the rest of the world

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Everyone has their own intersectional experiences. Your friend does not share the same experiences as a Native woman, or a straight woman, or a woman born in a war-torn country.

Just because a trans woman lived a different experience than your friend does not negate her womanhood. That your friend wants to strip her of that is concerning. It's like if I told her to chill out over reproductive rights because she isn't heterosexual. That's a wild jump to make just because she has a different experience than straight women*

*to be clear, this is an asinine argument I'm knocking down

 

[BDS]

I'm not nearly as familiar with the finer points of the issue as I'd like to be but this does a fantastic job of summing it up succinctly. Stealing it

Click to shrink...

The point is that there is no one universal "female experience," and that attempts to define one have historically always excluded some women. The OP's friend claiming that womanhood is defined by "whether society sees you as female" doesn't work either because many cis women have their womanhood questioned or delegitimized for any number of reasons. Women of color are dehumanized, compared to animals, and sexually exotified in ways white women are not. Bisexual and lesbian women have historically had their womanhood questioned, mocked, and degraded by men and straight women. So whether or not society "sees you as a woman" can't be used as the definition of womanhood or else we're excluding essentially everyone that isn't cis, straight, and white.....hence the term "white feminism," used to refer to women who completely fail to examine the female experience through any lens other than their own.

 

[kiaaa]

As long as she makes an intriguing RPG, unfortunately, 61.2% of ERA (as of this post) will find a way to pretend that viewpoint isn't enough of a problem.

As you get older, you come to realize there's a time to have debates and there's a time to move on from the relationship based on serious differences of "opinion."

Hope there's still time for you and your friend.

Click to shrink...

Gaming side generally cares less about social issues and that's still only about 5% of the members on Era voting.

 

[Prolepro]

The point is that there is no one universal "female experience," and that attempts to define one have historically always excluded some women. The OP's friend claiming that womanhood is defined by "whether society sees you as female" doesn't work either because many cis women have their womanhood questioned or delegitimized for any number of reasons. Women of color are dehumanized, compared to animals, and sexually exotified in ways white women are not. Bisexual and lesbian women have historically had their womanhood questioned, mocked, and degraded by men and straight women. So whether or not society "sees you as a woman" can't be used as the definition of womanhood or else we're excluding essentially everyone that isn't cis, straight, and white.....hence the term "white feminism," used to refer to women who completely fail to examine the female experience through any lens other than their own.

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thank you for putting it this way, very illuminating

 

[darz1]

The point is that there is no one universal "female experience," and that attempts to define one have historically always excluded some women. The OP's friend claiming that womanhood is defined by "whether society sees you as female" doesn't work either because many cis women have their womanhood questioned or delegitimized for any number of reasons. Women of color are dehumanized, compared to animals, and sexually exotified in ways white women are not. Bisexual and lesbian women have historically had their womanhood questioned, mocked, and degraded by men and straight women. So whether or not society "sees you as a woman" can't be used as the definition of womanhood or else we're excluding essentially everyone that isn't cis, straight, and white.....hence the term "white feminism," used to refer to women who completely fail to examine the female experience through any lens other than their own.

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Yeah. This here is really on point.

 

[Earthstrike]

Well firstly, why would the argument be about comparability? Both cis and trans women experience particular hardships as a consequence of the current societal structure, and the origins of those hardships have plenty of overlaps. I mean the experiences of cis and trans women don't overlap into a neat "same" or "not same" distinction. There's going to be degrees of overlap depending on what you're looking at. And isn't being a TERF about rejecting that trans women are women?

 

[CharlesAznable]

There is nothing that serves as more of an equalizer than money. Money allows you to buy your way out of just about any form of bigotry. JK Rowling is worth billions of dollars and therefore has the money to buy her way out of any meaningful form of oppression or sexism, and therefore has an almost entirely different lived experience than any other woman.

Does this mean JK Rowling is no longer a woman?

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I get your point but I strongly disagree with the bolded.

 

[Aske]

Thank you for the responses - this is essentially what I hoped people would say, and much of it is what I said to my friend, though less well phrased.

And isn't being a TERF about rejecting that trans women are women?

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I'm not sure, but I feel like my friend's perspective is plenty TERFy. She's certainly rejecting the idea that their womanhood is equal, which amounts to the same thing.

As you get older, you come to realize there's a time to have debates and there's a time to move on from the relationship based on serious differences of "opinion."

Hope there's still time for you and your friend.

Click to shrink...

You're not wrong. However, she's generally on the right side of these types of issues, and she's not dogmatic. I think she had an experience where she felt an older trans woman was speaking about something my friend was aware she hadn't experienced directly, and had a visceral, prejudicial, and obviously transphobic reaction. As soon as I mentioned that word, she felt guilty. I'd bet money that she reads some useful stuff, gains some perspective, and comes around.

The point is that there is no one universal "female experience," and that attempts to define one have historically always excluded some women. The OP's friend claiming that womanhood is defined by "whether society sees you as female" doesn't work either because many cis women have their womanhood questioned or delegitimized for any number of reasons. Women of color are dehumanized, compared to animals, and sexually exotified in ways white women are not. Bisexual and lesbian women have historically had their womanhood questioned, mocked, and degraded by men and straight women. So whether or not society "sees you as a woman" can't be used as the definition of womanhood or else we're excluding essentially everyone that isn't cis, straight, and white.....hence the term "white feminism," used to refer to women who completely fail to examine the female experience through any lens other than their own.

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Beautifully put. I'm going to share this with her.

 

[Mona]

you can cut women up in all kinds of different ways, shes solely lumping them into cis and trans buckets when i bet a cis white women can have a more similar experience to a white trans women than to that of a black cis woman in a plethora of cases

 

[Aske]

I just found this article: Unpacking Transphobia in Feminism, which seems like the best thing to share with TERFs (or those with TERFish tendencies). Posting it in case anyone else finds it useful or interesting - it's a superb read.

 

[Deleted member 4494]

Who you are and where you've been are two different notions, though the latter can very much inform the former. People here -- and at some point, I hope, everywhere -- can agree readily that trans-women are women. Once you're a woman, you can speak with women as a woman, share your experiences from that point of view, and embed yourself in the movements of that group.

Does that mean that your pain, suffering, and truth are going to line up entirely with that of every woman you meet? No. We're all unique, and we all have our own histories, stories, traumas, and realities that we've lived; each and every one of those moments may give way to a perspective that is uniquely identifiable and a product of those previous experiences. Just as I cannot speak for every man being a man, a woman may not speak for every woman. What matters, though, is the shared truth -- the shared reality that rings true to groups when spoken. When a woman can speak of her experiences and sets off an immediate understanding throughout that group of a shared reality and moment, that's valid. She cannot speak *for* those people down to their moment-to-moment histories, but she can, certainly, evoke an axiomatic reality for them in which they can join in that movement in solidarity with that person. There's an immense power to that, and I think that almost all good faith actors raise their voices for that reason when they speak as a group, or with a group. Speaking *for* a group requires that what a person says in their experience ring true for most others. At that point, their personal traumas, what defines them or brought them to that moment is far less important than what they are trying to do with that moment which is to move forward.

 

[Platy]

As a trans woman i can tell you 2 things:

1) lots of people told me women related slurs while i was a child because i was not exactly "manly enough"

2) The experience of being a woman is not based only on how society sees you, but how you see yourself in society.
When you hear people talking in a conversation about how boys and girls should act, you internalize the girl part.
When you see a billboard telling how women should look, you take that as a rule for you.
This is a type of mysoginy that you can't escape no matter how privileged you are.

but yeah, a white woman (be them lesbian or straight) in a rich country has zero experience equal to a black woman in a poor country.

Also, why the hell is that important?
That makes her think trans women are not women ?
Does she think female bathrooms are just for people who were treated as someone with a vagina?

Do people from a war thorn country deserves less rights based on if they flee or stayed ?

 

[Truant]

What if we get the ability to change our race in the near future. Would the basic logical arguments for trans-women being real women apply to this? I believe trans-women are women btw, just an interesting question to think about.

 

[Platy]

What if we get the ability to change our race in the near future. Would the basic logical arguments for trans-women being real women apply to this? I believe trans-women are women btw, just an interesting question to think about.

Click to shrink...

no because race doesn't exist the same way gender
I am white right now but suddenly if I go to the usa i will not be anymore.

 

[Osu 16 Bit]

I didn't transition until I was 38. I struggled, and continue to struggle, with that difference in experience. It makes me feel invalid and insecure and is one of the things that held me back for so long. Ultimately, every time I think about it I come to the same conclusion: what am I supposed to do about it? What does it actually matter? TERFs rarely have any solution themselves for their "concerns" or points. Like, what am I supposed to do, stay in the closet then? Be miserable forever? Transition like I have, but I can't go into the bathroom because I don't meet the threshold of years of live experience? They say we can't erase that difference, or we must acknowledge it, but that's a total red herring. Like, ok, I am acknowledging it...now what?

It's also a great point that things like body image misogyny was always there and a big part of my life. Another reason I held back so long was the anxiety and insecurity about my appearance, or my potential appearance if I went through with transition. There's many reasons for that, but one is absolutely society's view of how women should look. So it's this stupid loop of anxiety about my appearance held be back, which caused me to wait until I was 38, which means I missed out on decades of lived experience. It's the same situation as the circular logic of "kids can't decide for themselves, we must deny them treatment" but then if you get the treatment later you waited too long so you're not valid.

 

[Yerffej]

The point is that there is no one universal "female experience," and that attempts to define one have historically always excluded some women. The OP's friend claiming that womanhood is defined by "whether society sees you as female" doesn't work either because many cis women have their womanhood questioned or delegitimized for any number of reasons. Women of color are dehumanized, compared to animals, and sexually exotified in ways white women are not. Bisexual and lesbian women have historically had their womanhood questioned, mocked, and degraded by men and straight women. So whether or not society "sees you as a woman" can't be used as the definition of womanhood or else we're excluding essentially everyone that isn't cis, straight, and white.....hence the term "white feminism," used to refer to women who completely fail to examine the female experience through any lens other than their own.

Click to shrink...

This is very well said.

 

[Platy]

TERFs rarely have any solution themselves for their "concerns" or points. Like, what am I supposed to do, stay in the closet then? Be miserable forever? Transition like I have, but I can't go into the bathroom because I don't meet the threshold of years of live experience? They say we can't erase that difference, or we must acknowledge it, but that's a total red herring. Like, ok, I am acknowledging it...now what?

Click to shrink...

TERFs looooooooooove the classic "you aren't a real woman because you had 20 years of male experince also you can only transition till you are post puberty because children can't know better"

 

[Mekanos]

I cut out an acquaintance of mine on social media who kept espousing TERF points and talking to TERFs. I tried several times to gently point out "hey this is a TERF argument" and it never stuck. The last straw was when she blocked my trans friend trying to talk sense into her. She got pissed and called me "a loser with no friends" so I obviously didn't lose much.

These viewpoints have consequences and get people killed. At some point you draw your line in the sand.

you can cut women up in all kinds of different ways

Click to shrink...

I mean, you can, but I wouldn't recommend it!

 

[CapNBritain]

The point is that there is no one universal "female experience," and that attempts to define one have historically always excluded some women. The OP's friend claiming that womanhood is defined by "whether society sees you as female" doesn't work either because many cis women have their womanhood questioned or delegitimized for any number of reasons. Women of color are dehumanized, compared to animals, and sexually exotified in ways white women are not. Bisexual and lesbian women have historically had their womanhood questioned, mocked, and degraded by men and straight women. So whether or not society "sees you as a woman" can't be used as the definition of womanhood or else we're excluding essentially everyone that isn't cis, straight, and white.....hence the term "white feminism," used to refer to women who completely fail to examine the female experience through any lens other than their own.

Click to shrink...

Thank you for this. It is unlocking a lot of things in my brain right now and will continue to do so for quite a while.

 

[Deleted member 203]

TERFs always use strawmen to to try to exclude trans women. Like Rowling saying that trans women are denying the existence of biological sex or whatever. Not a thing. Or saying that trans women are women somehow erases the lived experience of cis women, which... it doesn't. You can acknowledge both things: A) trans women are women and B) cis women and trans women have different lived experiences as women. All women have different lived experience, as BDS beautifully pointed out.

And if TERFs want to compare notes about how scarring their experiences are with trans women, which is pointless... trans women growing up socialized as men and having to break out of that and transition is a uniquely difficult experience made more difficult by pieces of shit like Rowling. What people like her can't see is that we all have our own pain and we're all women and we'd be stronger if we all worked together. Feminism that excludes trans women because they didn't have the exact same struggles as cis women (which, again, there is no universal cis woman experience either) is NOT feminism.

 

[Sordid Plebeian]

Is it so hard to just accept them as women and treat them as such? Why does everyone want to be exclusive instead of accepting?

 

[ElNerdo]

Everyone has their own intersectional experiences. Your friend does not share the same experiences as a Native woman, or a straight woman, or a woman born in a war-torn country.

Just because a trans woman lived a different experience than your friend does not negate her womanhood. That your friend wants to strip her of that is concerning. It's like if I told her to chill out over reproductive rights because she isn't heterosexual. That's a wild jump to make just because she has a different experience than straight women*

*to be clear, this is an asinine argument I'm knocking down

Click to shrink...

I was actually going to ask what a good way to explain how trans women are still women and should still be part of the feminism conversation.

This is a really good way of explaining it. Thank you.

 

[StraySheep]

As long as she makes an intriguing RPG, unfortunately, 61.2% of ERA (as of this post) will find a way to pretend that viewpoint isn't enough of a problem.

As you get older, you come to realize there's a time to have debates and there's a time to move on from the relationship based on serious differences of "opinion."

Hope there's still time for you and your friend.

Click to shrink...

The books mean a lot to me. And I would love one final game interpretation of that world. Doesn't mean I have any respect left for her and I won't see any more movies she shits out.

 

[Midgarian]

There is nothing that serves as more of an equalizer than money. Money allows you to buy your way out of just about any form of bigotry. JK Rowling is worth billions of dollars and therefore has the money to buy her way out of any meaningful form of oppression or sexism, and therefore has an almost entirely different lived experience than any other woman.

Does this mean JK Rowling is no longer a woman?

Click to shrink...

That's an excellent point.

It's the same logic as well off minorities who criticise protestors thinking they have some special insight into the average life of a minority. The classic "Fuck you got mine" basically.

As long as she makes an intriguing RPG, unfortunately, 61.2% of ERA (as of this post) will find a way to pretend that viewpoint isn't enough of a problem.

Click to shrink...

There's plenty of people that voted (arguably the majority) they would play the game while also thinking JK's views are problematic.

Not playing a game people will enjoy doesn't affect JK Rowling in anyway. The only people losing out in that protest is the player denying themselves enjoyment. JK remains a billionaire either way, any proceeds from the game are pocket change to her.

 

[Deleted member 5086]

I think one issue with your friend's line of thought is that she's looking at those pre transition years as a luxury and privilege, when it's anything but for trans women.

I'm a black cis woman. I've faced a ton of misogyny since birth, sometimes in ways that a trans woman wouldn't before transitioning (as others have already pointed out, you can still experience misogyny before transitioning). But I'm not going to pretend that my pain and marginalisation was greater than that of trans women, and black trans women in particular. We all suffer under patriarchy, sometimes in different ways, sometimes in the same ways. Your friend lacks perspective.

 

[Humidex]

The point is that there is no one universal "female experience," and that attempts to define one have historically always excluded some women. The OP's friend claiming that womanhood is defined by "whether society sees you as female" doesn't work either because many cis women have their womanhood questioned or delegitimized for any number of reasons. Women of color are dehumanized, compared to animals, and sexually exotified in ways white women are not. Bisexual and lesbian women have historically had their womanhood questioned, mocked, and degraded by men and straight women. So whether or not society "sees you as a woman" can't be used as the definition of womanhood or else we're excluding essentially everyone that isn't cis, straight, and white.....hence the term "white feminism," used to refer to women who completely fail to examine the female experience through any lens other than their own.

Click to shrink...

Ding ding ding, great post.

 

[Nooblet]

The point is that there is no one universal "female experience," and that attempts to define one have historically always excluded some women. The OP's friend claiming that womanhood is defined by "whether society sees you as female" doesn't work either because many cis women have their womanhood questioned or delegitimized for any number of reasons. Women of color are dehumanized, compared to animals, and sexually exotified in ways white women are not. Bisexual and lesbian women have historically had their womanhood questioned, mocked, and degraded by men and straight women. So whether or not society "sees you as a woman" can't be used as the definition of womanhood or else we're excluding essentially everyone that isn't cis, straight, and white.....hence the term "white feminism," used to refer to women who completely fail to examine the female experience through any lens other than their own.

Click to shrink...

Actually I'd say there would be one universal female experience that can only be shared by cis women. It's the notion that women grow up being told that they are suppose to be caregivers, and maternal. That they will grow up to carry a man's child through pregnancy, birth that child and nurture that child. That notion most definitely has some impact on the way cis women grow up and the way they are treated by others. I'm not saying trans women can't be maternal cause they can be, but rather how others have viewed/treated cis women throughout their life because of their biological ability to be pregnent.

There is nothing that serves as more of an equalizer than money. Money allows you to buy your way out of just about any form of bigotry. JK Rowling is worth billions of dollars and therefore has the money to buy her way out of any meaningful form of oppression or sexism, and therefore has an almost entirely different lived experience than any other woman.

Does this mean JK Rowling is no longer a woman?

Click to shrink...

While you are correct in that money can equalise for the most part, in her case atleast she wasn't always rich. Granted she is above all of it now with a great deal of power and influence, and has been since her late 30s. But before that she was poor and on benefits. And it was during that time that she experienced sexism. So she is speaking from the experience during those times. Doesn't mean it's not a shitty unresearched take.

 

[Deleted member 5086]

Actually I'd say there is one universal female experience that is only shared by cis women who have been one since birth. It's the notion that women grow up being told that they are suppose to be caregivers, and maternal. That they will grow up to carry a man's child through pregnancy, birth that child and nurture that child. That notion most definitely has some impact on the way cis women grow up and the way they are treated by others. I'm not saying trans women can't be maternal cause they can be, but rather how others have viewed cis women throughout their life because of the ability to be pregnent.

Click to shrink...

Others have already stated in the thread that it isn't just about how society views you, but also how you view yourself. A trans woman is going to internalise messages meant for women, whether they have transitioned or not. It's not like transitioning turns on the 'woman' switch in their brains. They already knew they were women before that. So no they can't personally give birth to a child, but I don't think that means that misogynistic stereotypes of what a woman has to be doesn't affect them. This stereotype can bring about a different kind of pain for some. The pain of not being able to fit into society's mould of a woman in this way. I don't think anyone is arguing that trans women have the exact same experiences. They don't. But they are still harmed by patriarchy in all its forms. Sometimes in ways that I as a cis woman am not. The hatred that trans women experience is often rooted in the idea that masculinity and maleness is superior, after all.

 

[Deleted member 25606]

Sure, there are experiences of a cis women someone like me cannot or will never have. But it's not exactly easy growing up in and hating the wrong body that your being constantly tries to reject despising even looking at yourself or causing yourself physical harm (was a cutter for a long time along time ago) because it doesn't match right. And in my case as middle aged person things were a lot different for me when I was kid, you didn't even mention being trans before 18 nevermind expect support. These arguments just make me tired and want to shoot myself. I get it, some people including powerful figures and celebrities are never going to accept my existence and most allies are always going to be just lip service, I try to spend my time on things that don't make me hate myself.

 

[Deleted member 2474]

your friend doesn't sound like a TERF in the rowling sense in that she still acknowledges trans women are women, isn't making ridiculous claims about bathroom safety, etc. and she's not wrong per se that the lived experience of a trans woman is different in many ways than a cis woman, especially prior to transitioning. but as has been said by several others in the thread, it's still the lived experience of a woman and comes with its own unique set of difficulties, and is simply a different experience in the same sense that black women and white women will have different experiences, women living in certain countries will have different experiences, etc. there is no "one lived experience" for women or pretty much any other group of people for that matter. no one can speak authoritatively for an entire group of people like that.

 

[Antrax]

Actually I'd say there would be one universal female experience that can only be shared by cis women. It's the notion that women grow up being told that they are suppose to be caregivers, and maternal. That they will grow up to carry a man's child through pregnancy, birth that child and nurture that child. That notion most definitely has some impact on the way cis women grow up and the way they are treated by others. I'm not saying trans women can't be maternal cause they can be, but rather how others have viewed/treated cis women throughout their life because of their biological ability to be pregnent.

Click to shrink...

I don't actually agree. I grew up with a girl who wasn't heteronormative from pre-school on. Everybody assumed she was gay (which was just stereotyping), and nobody ever talked motherhood (literal or caregiver) for her. Her family always talked like she'd grow up to be the biker aunt who brought cool stuff back from road trips.

To be clear, I don't know whether this person is straight or not. She's never dated or even seemed interested. She'd be described as "butch" by anybody that knows her and society never hit her with motherhood stuff. She's been hit with anti-lesbian stuff, and she might not even be gay.

In general, there is never a universal experience for any demographic. There will always be people outside of any attempted definition.

 

[Nooblet]

I don't actually agree. I grew up with a girl who wasn't heteronormative from pre-school on. Everybody assumed she was gay (which was just stereotyping), and nobody ever talked motherhood (literal or caregiver) for her. Her family always talked like she'd grow up to be the biker aunt who brought cool stuff back from road trips.

To be clear, I don't know whether this person is straight or not. She's never dated or even seemed interested. She'd be described as "butch" by anybody that knows her and society never hit her with motherhood stuff. She's been hit with anti-lesbian stuff, and she might not even be gay.

In general, there is never a universal experience for any demographic. There will always be people outside of any attempted definition.

Click to shrink...

Well her family may have talked about it at some point, maybe in her childhood years. We wouldn't know that.
It's also possible that at some point she may have had an internal conflict arising from her own identity and what is "normal"....additionally she may have experienced misogyny in some form at some point too regardless of what her outlook and attitude is like which others wouldn't know about. Point I'm making is that you can't really say for sure about these things as they are such a personal experience.

To clarify I'm not saying that all cis women feel maternal but rather that they would experience some things due to the societal pressure from that expectation, even if they personally were very clear about it.

 

[Gleethor]

TERFs looooooooooove the classic "you aren't a real woman because you had 20 years of male experince also you can only transition till you are post puberty because children can't know better"

Click to shrink...

That's the giveaway that they don't actually want trans women to exist.

 

[Deleted member 20850]

Well her family may have talked about it at some point, maybe in her childhood years. We wouldn't know that.
It's also possible that at some point she may have had an internal conflict arising from her own identity and what is "normal"....additionally she may have experienced misogyny in some form at some point too regardless of what her outlook and attitude is like which others wouldn't know about. Point I'm making is that you can't really say for sure about these things as they are such a personal experience.

Click to shrink...

Some trans girls start their social transition very early these days. Years before puberty. They are also lucky enough to get medical help early.

It would not be broadcasted to the world at large that she is even trans. So all that pressure to be a caregiver would also be applied to her. And that pressure is not depended on actual fertility because being fertile is seen as the default.

It's impossible to come up with a categorization that includes all cis women and excludes all trans women. Many have certainly tried.

 

[Aaron]

I don't actually agree. I grew up with a girl who wasn't heteronormative from pre-school on. Everybody assumed she was gay (which was just stereotyping), and nobody ever talked motherhood (literal or caregiver) for her. Her family always talked like she'd grow up to be the biker aunt who brought cool stuff back from road trips.

To be clear, I don't know whether this person is straight or not. She's never dated or even seemed interested. She'd be described as "butch" by anybody that knows her and society never hit her with motherhood stuff. She's been hit with anti-lesbian stuff, and she might not even be gay.

In general, there is never a universal experience for any demographic. There will always be people outside of any attempted definition.

Click to shrink...

This is the point I agree with most broadly. I can kind of see where the original point is coming from, but ultimately, like you said it's dismissive of peoples' (very) varying life experiences.

I'm a cis, straight white guy so I don't feel I have much authority to comment here, but I'll respect whatever anyone identifies themselves as. I don't understand why that's so hard for people.

 

[Nooblet]

Some trans girls start their social transition very early these days. Years before puberty. They are also lucky enough to get medical help early.

It would not be broadcasted to the world at large that she is even trans. So all that pressure to be a caregiver would also be applied to her. And that pressure is not depended on actual fertility because being fertile is seen as the default.

It's impossible to come up with a categorization that includes all cis women and excludes all trans women. Many have certainly tried.

Click to shrink...

It does not need to be broadcasted to the world; as the parents, family and friends would know. A trans woman has to transition at some point, doesn't matter if it's just mental or is mental and physical both, but that in itself will be an event in time. And there will be people who would know her from before that event. The reason I bring this up is because before that event the family members/friends may have been talking to her with that expectation in mind subconsciously.

I'll give an example of my own family, my sister would have talked with my mother about certain things even before she reached puberty that my mother and I never have. My mother would have no doubt at some point talked to my sister about how my sister may be a mother herself one day, even when she was just a child.

This is what I meant to say that this is one area that cis women may universally share. Ofcourse, at the end of the day I'm a cis man who's just talking about this, and I can be wrong but these are the thoughts I have at the moment about this.

 

[BDS]

It does not need to be broadcasted to the world; as the parents, family and friends would know. A trans woman has to transition at some point, doesn't matter if it's just mental or is mental and physical both, but that in itself will be an event in time. And there will be people who would know her from before that event. The reason I bring this up is because before that event the family members/friends may have been talking to her with that expectation in mind subconsciously.

I'll give an example of my own family, my sister would have talked with my mother about certain things even before she reached puberty that my mother and I never have. My mother would have no doubt at some point talked to my sister about how my sister may be a mother herself one day, even when she was just a child.

This is what I meant to say that this is one area that cis women may universally share. Ofcourse, at the end of the day I'm a cis man who's just talking about this, and I can be wrong but these are the thoughts I have at the moment about this.

Click to shrink...

It's still not universal. What about girls raised without a mother, or a good mother? What about boys who grow up internalizing female gender norms? Studies have found many kids who identify as a different gender have internalized those norms and social standards from a young age. There is never going to be any single experience that every woman on Earth can exclusively claim to have, so getting into the weeds of splitting hairs over finding some way of defining universal womanhood is pointless, a distraction TERFs thrive on. Their goal is to create enough confusion and arbitrary gatekeeping that liberal society is willing to overcome their inherent dislike of discrimination and reluctantly start excluding trans people from civilization.

 

[Ketkat]

Actually I'd say there would be one universal female experience that can only be shared by cis women. It's the notion that women grow up being told that they are suppose to be caregivers, and maternal. That they will grow up to carry a man's child through pregnancy, birth that child and nurture that child. That notion most definitely has some impact on the way cis women grow up and the way they are treated by others. I'm not saying trans women can't be maternal cause they can be, but rather how others have viewed/treated cis women throughout their life because of their biological ability to be pregnent.


While you are correct in that money can equalise for the most part, in her case atleast she wasn't always rich. Granted she is above all of it now with a great deal of power and influence, and has been since her late 30s. But before that she was poor and on benefits. And it was during that time that she experienced sexism. So she is speaking from the experience during those times. Doesn't mean it's not a shitty unresearched take.

Click to shrink...

Well, that's blatantly not true. The expectation of needing to be a mother, nurturing, and maternal were absolutely imprinted on me as a child as well. While I started transitioning when I was 21, I knew I was trans by the time I was 5 or 6 at the latest. I wasn't ignorant of the expectations placed on the girls and women around me, if anything I was focused on them as I felt that I had to meet everyone's expectations of a woman to be considered one by society.

There is no experience that encompasses all cis women and excludes all trans women as that just displays such a significant misunderstanding of what trans women go through in our lives

 

[Aske]

I think one issue with your friend's line of thought is that she's looking at those pre transition years as a luxury and privilege, when it's anything but for trans women.

I'm a black cis woman. I've faced a ton of misogyny since birth, sometimes in ways that a trans woman wouldn't before transitioning (as others have already pointed out, you can still experience misogyny before transitioning). But I'm not going to pretend that my pain and marginalisation was greater than that of trans women, and black trans women in particular. We all suffer under patriarchy, sometimes in different ways, sometimes in the same ways. Your friend lacks perspective.

Click to shrink...

She wasn't arguing that trans women have it easier than cis women, just that those who transition later in life don't experience the same kind of trauma as cis women (specifically "the unique trauma of growing up being treated like women"). But obviously the point is that it's a flawed premise, because no one experiences the exact same kind of trauma; and to assume there's a cis experience that is universal to cis women and not to trans women is to generalize for the sake of exclusion, not because there are meaningful differences that don't also exist between different cis women.

Thankfully she's now gaining that perspective. The point about wealth disparity really hit home.

 

[FeistyBoots]

Well her family may have talked about it at some point, maybe in her childhood years. We wouldn't know that.
It's also possible that at some point she may have had an internal conflict arising from her own identity and what is "normal"....additionally she may have experienced misogyny in some form at some point too regardless of what her outlook and attitude is like which others wouldn't know about. Point I'm making is that you can't really say for sure about these things as they are such a personal experience.

To clarify I'm not saying that all cis women feel maternal but rather that they would experience some things due to the societal pressure from that expectation, even if they personally were very clear about it.

Click to shrink...

I'm a mother who is trans.

Just because I didn't give birth, it doesn't follow that I never felt the desire and instinct to be maternal.

 

[mieumieu]

It really depends on the individual imo. As someone transitioning since 34 yo in a comfortable position at work and savings and such, I do think I have been sheltered by my male presentation before transitioning. It is a double-edged sword, I wouldn't say it is exactly privilege as in cis males though since it would be increasingly harder to transition later in a society much more adhering to the gender binary than the US.

My experience is not shared by other trans women around me, even those transitioning later on in life. And of course not cis women either.

And that's the thing: I speak only for myself and my brand of "female experience", and I never even pretend to know any others. It is unique, but also undeniably female.

 

[Grimsey]

I hope this is on topic. I need help understanding how to respond to a certain view on sex/gender. I'm paraphrasing but someone I know voiced the opinion that sex is scientific, biological, and unchangeable. At the same time they said that gender is a fluid and changeable social construct, that no one should be judged for their gender, and that it should be totally accepted (so for instance, the whole "bathroom" thing is totally a non-issue). Is this an acceptable view? I was at a loss on how to respond.

 

[Deleted member 20850]

I hope this is on topic. I need help understanding how to respond to a certain view on sex/gender. I'm paraphrasing but someone I know voiced the opinion that sex is scientific, biological, and unchangeable. At the same time they said that gender is a fluid and changeable social construct, that no one should be judged for their gender, and that it should be totally accepted (so for instance, the whole "bathroom" thing is totally a non-issue). Is this an acceptable view? I was at a loss on how to respond.

Click to shrink...

There is a difference between gender expression/norms and gender identity. The first are social constructs, gender identity is not.

Stranded alone on an island, my money would instantly become nothing more than paper and metal. At the same time my pre transition self would still feel alien in her masculine body.

Gender identities are also scientific.

For the sex part you'd have to specify how sex is defined to you. Both primary and secondary sex characteristics can be changed. The secondary ones can even be prevented from initially developing in the wrong direction. Those two and presentation are what we usually use to gender people at a glance.

Are we talking about having a female or male hormone profile? Again, completely changeable and hormones do the same to a body no matter what was assigned at birth. To the point trans men get significant bottom growth just like cis men in puberty.

Chromosomes? Those are in fact unchangeable. But xy afab and xx amab people exist. Did you or your friend have their chromosomes checked? If not, how vital can that really be?

Fertility wise nothing can be changed to the other sex, things can be changed to a neutral state though. Trans men can stop to menstruate and trans women can stop producing sperm even without surgery, just hormones. Can is important here, never treat HRT as birth control.

Medical needs change, trans women need breast cancer screenings as much as any cis woman.

Of course no medical treatments are required to make a trans person valid.

Biologically and scientifically speaking, a trans woman who did all possible medical transition steps is pretty close to a cis woman who had a hysterectomy. Considering her male on a sex level and basically saying her body is still that of a man is just wrong.

 

[Starshine]

Is it so hard to just accept them as women and treat them as such? Why does everyone want to be exclusive instead of accepting?

Click to shrink...

Fear.

 

[Idde]

As a cis white guy who knows very little about trans issues this entire topic has been very insightful, with a lot of very well thought out posts. Don't have anything to add aside from that. Well, except fuck TERFS (sorry, less insightful and thought out).