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Pau

Self-Appointed Godmother of Bruce Wayne's Children
Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,838
Yesterday I had a family video conference in which my aunt told us about the new and exciting psychology classes she's taking: NLP Coaching (PNL in Spanish).

This is an aunt who once thought she was talking (and sending money) to Prince Harry on Instagram and married a guy who convinced her he was the reincarnation of Jesus (and took most of her savings). So naturally I was a little suspicious.

Turns out NLP is short for Neuro-Linguistic Programming, which is pretty much what you would expect from the name.
Neuro-linguistic programming (NLP) is a pseudoscientific approach to communication, personal development, and psychotherapy created by Richard Bandler and John Grinder in California, United States, in the 1970s. NLP's creators claim there is a connection between neurological processes (neuro-), language (linguistic) and behavioral patterns learned through experience (programming), and that these can be changed to achieve specific goals in life.[1][2] Bandler and Grinder also claim that NLP methodology can "model" the skills of exceptional people, allowing anyone to acquire those skills.[3][4] They claim as well that, often in a single session, NLP can treat problems such as phobias, depression, tic disorders, psychosomatic illnesses, near-sightedness,[5] allergy, common cold,[6] and learning disorders.[7][8] NLP has been adopted by some hypnotherapists and also by companies that run seminars marketed as leadership training to businesses and government agencies.[9][10]


The particular variant she got into seems to be pretty much structured like an MLM/pyramid scheme but wrapped up in the language of self-help. My aunt is now working through "certifications" from some random guy in order to become a life coach and try to get other people to take the courses and buy the guy's materials. She's just got her foot in the door, only doing the first (free) course, but other courses range from hundreds to thousands of dollars (USD).This is a problem because my parents support her financially 100% and she takes care of my grandmother. Whatever money she wastes on this is going to be my folks', and they aren't really in a position to throw it away. And no, cutting her off financially is not an option my parents are willing to consider.

Have any of you had family members or friends get roped into this shit? How much of a money sink was it? Does it end after they get their "certifications" or are they expected to keep paying like in Scientology? Did you have any luck getting them to get out at any point?

I know she is very happy going through the program. She's exactly the audience for these types of schemes: no career, (perceived) lack of job opportunities, limited skills, limited education, and low self-worth.

We haven't confronted her about it. I would like to ideally present her with productive, healthy alternatives that aren't scams, but I know that a lot of the appeal of these types of things is the instant gratification offered. And this is obviously a pattern. She's incredibly susceptible to these types of things, and I just want to find a way to get her to a place where she doesn't feel like she needs to seek this type of stuff. More for my parents' peace of mind than anything else. She's in her fifties: trying to get her to be financially independent is probably impossible at this point. But maybe it's possible to keep her busy and fulfilled in a way that doesn't throw away money and line the pockets of some scam artist. Or maybe I'm overreacting.

I don't know what exactly I'm looking for in posting this thread. Maybe just venting because I'm emotionally tired. Maybe advice. Maybe just a space to hear others' stories.
 

fadedbones

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,589
Holy shit OP, rough to read this as my own mother who's in a similar situation to your aunt is getting into more new MLM crap. This time it's some snake oil weight loss stuff. 3 others that are sale based (that I know of) before that which she still is active in. I don't have any good advice but hope this doesn't become a massive drain on your folks :(

mlm shit is so predatory and wrong
 

bananabread

Member
Oct 28, 2017
137
I don't know enough about your aunt's particular situation to comment OP, although from what you've said it sounds like a scam and you're right to be worried about her.

In terms of successfully intervening with her, this video could potentially be very useful:



It's basically a 40 minute crash course in how Psychologists talk to patients and guide them to realisations, and it's been hugely helpful to me in understanding how to help my friends/family when they're in trouble by being a much better listener.
 

Aureon

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,819
NLP is a cancer upon society.

I've got friends who were pretty much reprogrammed for YEARS in it :(
 

Akira86

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,585
can you maybe direct her to some real long distance learning courses once you are able to get her away from the snake oil?

first show her and talk with her about some proofs of nlp being mostly bunk, and then maybe help her find something related to her hobbies or skills that she can get real fulfillment out of?

I think mainly for her is she wants to be going places, and those cheap promises make those goals for change seem more attainable. So if she ends up on a real path to achievement and change she will feel better and so will the familiy. so consider this as a red flag and an excuse to do some family work with your aunt who is vulnerable to these things.


i would hate for her to be under the sway of not only a dishonest person, but a dishonest person that thinks they're a genius for filling innocent peoples' heads with nonsense.
 

brochiller

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
2,191
I can't speak to the MLM scheme she is involved in, that doesn't sound great.

Depending on how far you take it though, NLP can teach some valuable lessons. I've been through some myself and I thought they were worthwhile. Although even though I've done some of this I've never heard those outlandish claims about curing colds and other diseases.
 
OP
OP
Pau

Pau

Self-Appointed Godmother of Bruce Wayne's Children
Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,838
Holy shit OP, rough to read this as my own mother who's in a similar situation to your aunt is getting into more new MLM crap. This time it's some snake oil weight loss stuff. 3 others that are sale based (that I know of) before that which she still is active in. I don't have any good advice but hope this doesn't become a massive drain on your folks :(

mlm shit is so predatory and wrong
I'm really sorry to hear that. I hope she's able to find something else that's fulfilling, or at the very least, not lose so much money that she can't take care of herself.

I don't know enough about your aunt's particular situation to comment OP, although from what you've said it sounds like a scam and you're right to be worried about her.

In terms of successfully intervening with her, this video could potentially be very useful:



It's basically a 40 minute crash course in how Psychologists talk to patients and guide them to realisations, and it's been hugely helpful to me in understanding how to help my friends/family when they're in trouble by being a much better listener.

Thank you. Not gonna lie, I'm a little biased against this type of content at the moment given the situation, but I appreciate the advice. I'm glad you've been able to help your loved ones more.

NLP is a cancer upon society.

I've got friends who were pretty much reprogrammed for YEARS in it :(
Do you feel comfortable elaborating?
 

SimonSimon

Alt Account
Member
Mar 26, 2020
658
When I learned that life coaching was a pyramid scheme, it blew my mind. I always thought it was a generic term for somebody who is functionally an unaccredited therapist, but it's so much weirder. But then somebody has to coach the life coaches, and then who coaches them?

I knew that the actual product being sold in an MLM doesn't matter, but it's wild that you can have an MLM with no product at all.
 

bananabread

Member
Oct 28, 2017
137
Thank you. Not gonna lie, I'm a little biased against this type of content at the moment given the situation, but I appreciate the advice. I'm glad you've been able to help your loved ones more.

I should have considered that, apologies. If it helps the guy running this channel is a Harvard grad psychiatrist and on the faculty there, so he's not teaching pseudo-science like your aunt's scammers are. It sounds like they've taken some of the language of mental health science and twisted it into a method to fleece vulnerable people, which is reprehensible.
 

Aureon

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,819
Do you feel comfortable elaborating?

Sure.
For context, i live in Italy, and most of these friends come from midly disadvantaged backgrounds, albeit some actually have family money behind them - all of them were in their mid 20's, either working dead-end jobs or studying things that didn't really interest them nor provided actual career paths.

As an entire group, they ended up corraled in a program that roughly translates as "Become a genius in 21 days" - At first, they sold them basic memory techniques and study methods, for a pretty penny (~3k€) but not really *that* bad
A major warning sign is that everyone needs to sign NDAs for ANYTHING regarding the memory courses or beyond.

However, the program drops small NLP hints, and when it ends, the upsell starts

First, they were promised that they would be 'recruited' as 'tutors' if they completed step 2 of the program, which was roughly another 3k€.

Technically, that happened: However, they were talked into receiving, in lieu of compensation for tutoring people in step 1, 'credits' for other courses.

That's where the shit starts: the ONE program, defined as "The one experience that will change your life" - a three-day, live-in workshop of "self-improvement" purely based on NLP programming, love bombing and forced bonding experiences - Think "fall and we'll catch you" or "run on hot coals" kinda stuff.

That experience also begins a major "Us vs Them" theme - They're told everyone who doesn't experience ONE is not "Enlightened", and should be immediately recruited to the cause or ostracized if convincing fails.
This means they're encouraged to bond amongst the organization, and STRONGLY encouraged to evangelize as much as possible

There's ~8 steps to the "Course" that will "Allow you to accomplish your dreams", and it's strongly implied you'll be offered a job as 'Instructor' if you complete all of them.

Instructors are generally partners of the society and make a point of putting on a show of their lavish livestyles, often showing off rented houses or cars as if they've been bought with "Teaching" profits, and telling 'students' they'll be that rich if they just complete the 'Course'

Four times a year, they rent out a hotel conference room in a lavish place, and hold a recruiting session.

Every member on the 'Course' track needs to bring a friend, or they're threatened with non-advancement or ostracization

I've been 'the friend' invited to save somebody's ass, and what followed was a 4 hour lecture on HOW TO LIVE LIFE ACCORDING TO NLP, mostly consisting in positive-thought bullshit, starring:
- A (no longer) friend of mine faking being a rape survivor to have an interesting comeback story to tell
- A very attractive girl explaining how she decided to date her long-time best friend after being dragged into the 'Course' by said friend (And strongly implying you, too, can fuck your attractive friends if you get involved in it and drag them along!)
- Bullshit stories about incredible academic achievements (People literally claiming they're professors at universities under 30yo, claims falsifiable with a rapid google check)
- A 'Master of the Techniques' recounting how he defeated cancer through positive thoughts
- A student of said master recounting how he defeated fucking ALS 'after doctors gave him a year to live'

And, of course, your own friends blackmailed into making a sell pitch as hard as possible to you - generally for the ONE experience, a 3-day thing priced at ~2500€ (But discounted to 1500 if you sign TODAY!)
Sell pitch starring:
- Subtly stating you won't ever see them again if you don't sign up
- Suggesting you can ask friends or family for money if you don't have it
- Or just work as a delivery rider! Where's there's a will, there's a way!
- Emotional blackmailing you by stating they'll be kicked out if they don't get recruits

A lapsed member told me they get a course stage 'free' if they recruit 7 people. Every course stage is 3k++.

In general, the NLP programming absorbed every thought and moment of these who ended up in their stage.
Their only friends were their fellow coursetakers.
Their only way of thinking was through NLP buzzwords and patterns

Pretty much all of them got out, at some point, either kicked from lack of further funds or contacts to prey on, or by realization of what the fuck was happening.

A longtime (10y++) friend of the group we consider lost for good - he's currently "helping start up a teaching center", eg. doing cold calls and stopping strangers on the street to drum up recruits for the organization in another city.
He lives in a boarding house with other converted, is provided minimal food and a pittance of a 'allowance'.



If all of this sounds like a cult, that's because it is.
My brother is doing his master's thesis in psychology on the experience, because besides being harrowing, it was really interesting
 

Deleted member 25606

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
8,973
Sorry to hear that. Only thing I can think of is like Akira86 response, us there maybe a way to steer her towards something else? If she is going to get and spend the money regardless maybe you could get her interested in some kind of course with a usable skill where at best her prospects could change and at worse even if nothing comes from it at least a real thing that could boost her confidence without dragging her down and also potentially getting her to drag down others?

If she's dead set on falling into it and your parents are going to give the money I don't know how to stop it completely but maybe you/your family could get her interested in something that's not a complete scam and waste of time and money.

Sorry I don't have better advice.
 
OP
OP
Pau

Pau

Self-Appointed Godmother of Bruce Wayne's Children
Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,838
can you maybe direct her to some real long distance learning courses once you are able to get her away from the snake oil?

first show her and talk with her about some proofs of nlp being mostly bunk, and then maybe help her find something related to her hobbies or skills that she can get real fulfillment out of?

I think mainly for her is she wants to be going places, and those cheap promises make those goals for change seem more attainable. So if she ends up on a real path to achievement and change she will feel better and so will the familiy. so consider this as a red flag and an excuse to do some family work with your aunt who is vulnerable to these things.


i would hate for her to be under the sway of not only a dishonest person, but a dishonest person that thinks they're a genius for filling innocent peoples' heads with nonsense.
Thank you for the thoughtful post. Your third paragraph is spot on and is exactly what I want to do. It's just trying to figure out how.

Proof about NLP not being scientific won't work because she doesn't really care. She believes in things like crystals, astrology, claims to have seen angels multiple times, etc. She also gets very defensive when we point out things like scams.

I think helping her find things related to her hobbies and skills would be the better tactic. She's always been into arts and crafts and does do some stuff on the side, but doesn't really make any money out of it. I've been thinking about helping her set up an Etsy page, but I don't know too much about the field. Because of the "Prince Harry" situation, we also have discouraged her from using social media except with family, but I imagine social media is a big must for people in the craft scene. But I don't know what would help her feel fulfilled.

As for other distance learning courses, I think that's a good idea. I need to talk to her about what she would be interested in learning and what her goals are. These are things I never really tried to talking to her about since most of her interests have been around things that... I'm just not into, to say the least. I also only talk to her about twice a year since I've always lived in another country and didn't grow up having a close relationship with her. I feel somewhat guilty in that I've always just tried to talk to her as little as possible. I don't know how to have these conversations organically, but it's something I'm going to have to learn if I want to help her.
 

Maximo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,159
Not sure its the same but my own Mum wants to do life coaching watches alot of...questionable videos about it. First started when she paid for a small part in a book about people who have been through trauma and overcome it, everything seemed fairly legit the book came out but since than and being more plugged in Facebook and Networking its lead her to more conspiracy theories especially about covid and now life coaching advice from just random people on Youtube and the internet.
 
OP
OP
Pau

Pau

Self-Appointed Godmother of Bruce Wayne's Children
Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,838
I can't speak to the MLM scheme she is involved in, that doesn't sound great.

Depending on how far you take it though, NLP can teach some valuable lessons. I've been through some myself and I thought they were worthwhile. Although even though I've done some of this I've never heard those outlandish claims about curing colds and other diseases.
I don't doubt that it's been helpful for some people, in the same way that self-help practices have followers, but we really don't have the money for her to spend on this stuff. I'll admit that I'm very biased against approaches that aren't research-based or heavily regulated.

Just have a fake certificate printed for her and save her the trouble
If only it was so easy. :(

bro why would prince Harry need money lmao
According to "Prince Harry", it was for charity.
 

fontguy

Avenger
Oct 8, 2018
16,151
So your aunt habitually falls for total scams and your parents refuse to even consider not giving her money?

This situation is beyond your control.
 

Annubis

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,656
This stuff sounds like "pensé magique" (magic thought) my aunt was into for a while.

Basically, if you thought about something daily and hard enough it would happen.
You also had to buy some shit to 'declare' your willingness in that thought.
 

Akira86

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,585


you're welcome, and don't take it all on yourself if you don't have to. enlist your family to help get through to her and nudge her in a better direction. Particularly if they know her well and may have some insights into her specialty. I'm not very familiar with Etsy either, but I know they have different communities on there, which could be cool if she could find some other creative folks with a spiritual bend leaning towards good intentions. With her learning new things and being encouraged to tap into her own inner-self and her particular gifts, resources, and passions I think she wouldn't be looking and finding harmful things like NLP and MLM scams. Especially if it made her happy. Some support, and feedback, with a little success can go a long way.

That's not to say etsy is totally a safe space, but once she really finds her groove, it might be a good outlet for her crafts.

Good luck, and try not to feel guilty. You all love her and actions speak loudly. :)
 

GYODX

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,234
I kept reading NLP as natural language processing and MLM as "ML" aka Machine Learning and was thoroughly confused.
 

Dice

Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,222
Canada
I think the only thing stopping my mum from this route is my dad. I'm honestly worried about her if he goes first. This thread has been an interrestring read
 
OP
OP
Pau

Pau

Self-Appointed Godmother of Bruce Wayne's Children
Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,838
Sorry that I'm responding to posts so slowly. I really appreciate everyone's input.

When I learned that life coaching was a pyramid scheme, it blew my mind. I always thought it was a generic term for somebody who is functionally an unaccredited therapist, but it's so much weirder. But then somebody has to coach the life coaches, and then who coaches them?

I knew that the actual product being sold in an MLM doesn't matter, but it's wild that you can have an MLM with no product at all.
I thought the same until today! Never linked the two before now.

I should have considered that, apologies. If it helps the guy running this channel is a Harvard grad psychiatrist and on the faculty there, so he's not teaching pseudo-science like your aunt's scammers are. It sounds like they've taken some of the language of mental health science and twisted it into a method to fleece vulnerable people, which is reprehensible.
No worries at all! Funnily enough, the guy she's taking classes with claims to be from Harvard, but I wasn't able to find any proof of affiliation. :P

I don't think it's funny at all. People taking advantage of others is beyond fucked up.
I had to laugh at the ridiculousness of it when I first heard about it too. I know angry crying is a thing. Is angry laughing a thing?
 

Zero-ELEC

The Wise Ones
Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,562
MĂ©xico
dad's really into "biomagnetism" healing nowadays. which sucks, because he's a very educated man who now believes that all viruses are accompanied by bacteria or something

thankfully he hasn't been able to get into some mlm/pyramid scheme type thing (which i'm pretty sure it was leading into), because he moved back home before it got that deep
 

Aureon

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,819
All the tale above to say:
This may be beyond your control.

Make an effort, but don't beat yourself up if it doesn't work out - I did for a while, and it was really unhealthy.
People make their own decisions, even bad ones.
 

brochiller

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
2,191
I don't doubt that it's been helpful for some people, in the same way that self-help practices have followers, but we really don't have the money for her to spend on this stuff. I'll admit that I'm very biased against approaches that aren't research-based or heavily regulated.

I can definitely see you concern with you aunt and she seems that be dangerously susceptible to schemes.

I also used to be skeptical of other approaches. I mean, I have a degree in chemistry with a focus on biology and I work in the pharmaceutical industry. I should believe medicines and changing the chemistry of the body is the answer to everything However, I have seen it do real harm to people who turn to prescription drugs for answers to problems they may have been able to find another solution to.

I can see someone wanting get into it who it has helped and has found real promise based in it's merits.

Having said all that I'll repeat again this is helpful for mental and lifestyle issues. I have never come across the claims made in what you found in the OP in practice, so if that's a corner of this she is getting into I would be more skeptical.
 

gozu

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,314
America
They absolutely are.

The most famous one is Tony Robbins. Incidentally, he also used NLP.
I had a couple couch surf at my place froma few years back and the girl had dragged them to a Tony Robbins seminar to give him thousands more dollars.

The idea was indeed a mix of bullshit promises about becoming rich and successful without putting in all the effort required to go to college or do actually useful things.

She had wasted tens of thousands of dollars on this shit, including loans from family and she wasn't feeling the least bad about it.

She was going to write a book on how to be successful and sell it to other idiots....

I'm sure she'sa famous best seller now thanks to tony Robbins. WhT a cunt that guy is.
 

fleet

Member
Jan 2, 2019
644
pseudo-psychological mlms make me sooo maaaaaaad. ugh.

some of the most vulnerable people who are desperately seeking help end up getting scammed by fraudulent, unethical, unscientific fuckheads because they pose as real professionals.
 

myojinsoga

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,036
Just be on her side, people only see these things for what they are under their own steam, and there's enough actually helpful and useful things in there that it may be costly, but won't be completely wasteful. Not worth trashing your relationship, over giving the impression her fulfilment isn't important to you. The money is your biggest concern so deal with that. Make sure your parents are aware, and try to get them to talk with your Aunt asap to set some boundaries and rules around this situation. Wish you the best.
 

Threadkular

Member
Dec 29, 2017
2,414
All the tale above to say:
This may be beyond your control.

Make an effort, but don't beat yourself up if it doesn't work out - I did for a while, and it was really unhealthy.
People make their own decisions, even bad ones.

Good advice. I'd say go in thinking/knowing you have no control from the start.
 
OP
OP
Pau

Pau

Self-Appointed Godmother of Bruce Wayne's Children
Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,838
Thank you so much for the really detailed account. I'm really sorry you had to watch your friends go through that. A lot of things you mention are things I'm worried about happening. I don't know if the set up is exactly the same, but I'm glad to have a better sense of what to watch out for.

So your aunt habitually falls for total scams and your parents refuse to even consider not giving her money?

This situation is beyond your control.
My mom is very much a adherent to the Hispanic cliche that you do anything and everything for family, no matter what. My dad goes along with it to make my mom happy. But you're probably right that this is beyond my control...

you're welcome, and don't take it all on yourself if you don't have to. enlist your family to help get through to her and nudge her in a better direction. Particularly if they know her well and may have some insights into her specialty. I'm not very familiar with Etsy either, but I know they have different communities on there, which could be cool if she could find some other creative folks with a spiritual bend leaning towards good intentions. With her learning new things and being encouraged to tap into her own inner-self and her particular gifts, resources, and passions I think she wouldn't be looking and finding harmful things like NLP and MLM scams. Especially if it made her happy. Some support, and feedback, with a little success can go a long way.

That's not to say etsy is totally a safe space, but once she really finds her groove, it might be a good outlet for her crafts.

Good luck, and try not to feel guilty. You all love her and actions speak loudly. :)
Thank you again for the kind post. You're right that this needs to be a family effort. Having her be part of a non-predatory, creative community sounds ideal.

I kept reading NLP as natural language processing and MLM as "ML" aka Machine Learning and was thoroughly confused.
I get you. I'm currently in a data science master's program so all my search results for NLP are incredibly irrelevant. :P

I think the only thing stopping my mum from this route is my dad. I'm honestly worried about her if he goes first. This thread has been an interrestring read
I hope it doesn't come to that. :(

All the tale above to say:
This may be beyond your control.

Make an effort, but don't beat yourself up if it doesn't work out - I did for a while, and it was really unhealthy.
People make their own decisions, even bad ones.
Thank you. It's something I need to hear. My family is such a mess that my sister and I feel like the only people stable enough to really help out so I feel a lot of responsibility. But at the end of the day, these are decisions made not just from my aunt, but my parents as well, and I need to remind myself that I can't do everything.

Just be on her side, people only see these things for what they are under their own steam, and there's enough actually helpful and useful things in there that it may be costly, but won't be completely wasteful. Not worth trashing your relationship, over giving the impression her fulfilment isn't important to you. The money is your biggest concern so deal with that. Make sure your parents are aware, and try to get them to talk with your Aunt asap to set some boundaries and rules around this situation. Wish you the best.
Thank you. My parents are now aware of the situation and we are trying to figure out how to best proceed.

Good advice. I'd say go in thinking/knowing you have no control from the start.
I need to print this out and put it above my bed or something. :P But in all sincerity, thank you.