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Oct 25, 2017
7,510
The judgemental arseholes on the comments section better be sinless creatures.
Who am I kidding? Ofcourse they aren't.
This is what I hate about religious zealots, they can only focus their attentions on others' perceived errors in the safety of anonymity.
Especially when the target is a woman who has some fame.

Garbage like this happens to Muslim women all the time, and day by day I look at fellow Muslim men and think how are we chatting about standards in religion when we're clearly lacking.
Hypocrites.
 

Antrax

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,284
Unless you specifically want to hide infant mortality and the like in a context where there is no reason to do so (in fact that would only make the point less poignant), why?

Because when you say "the average lifespan is 35" you're saying a 36-year-old is beating the system in some way. It's a skewed distribution, which is always going to yield a median more in line with what people should expect than the mean.

To say it another way, almost nobody was dying naturally around 35 back then. If you made it past birth (a complicated procedure without medical tech), you weren't looking at much different of a lifespan than we are today.
 

Sande

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,981
Because when you say "the average lifespan is 35" you're saying a 36-year-old is beating the system in some way. It's a skewed distribution, which is always going to yield a median more in line with what people should expect than the mean.

To say it another way, almost nobody was dying naturally around 35 back then. If you made it past birth (a complicated procedure without medical tech), you weren't looking at much different of a lifespan than we are today.
Well, a 36 year old was beating the system in some way. And again, sweeping infant and birth mortality and other reasons people used to die way younger under the rug is entirely counterproductive to the point being made.

I know the misconception and the whole "actually, people used to live almost as long" thing, but it simply doesn't apply here. When you specifically want to underline just how different the world is now and how far we've come in medicine, technology etc, mean makes much more sense than median.
 

Antrax

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,284
When you specifically want to underline just how different the world is now and how far we've come in medicine, technology etc

Then why hide what you're referring to with the stat? Just say "when infant mortality was higher." The "when your average human lived to be 35" line is an obfuscation, no different than the old stats joke that the average human has one ovary and one testicle.
 

Tirisfal

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
939
London
These "muslims" in the comment section make me fucking lol. Do they really think a woman that has a hijab on is suddenly some pure holy being that is free of sin? And the opposite if they don't wear one? It's not hard to find hijab wearing girls here in the UK that act like morons. Why? Because they are human like the rest of us, hijab or not.
 
OP
OP
Kain-Nosgoth

Kain-Nosgoth

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,568
Switzerland
I don't like religion, but i don't care what people believe in as long as the ones following it don't force it on anyone! Unfortunately in a lot of places religion doesn't work like that
 

Dark_EMT

Banned
Apr 19, 2018
571
Man these people must really have shit for brains. Poor girl, hopefully she doesn't get attacked by some lunatic.
 

Deleted member 888

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,361
Sadly wouldn't have expected anything different from someone with a presence announcing something like this. Hope she stays safe.

Religions are all patriarchal and want to control women so YMMV where you are in the world and how bad it is. The internet bridges those differences a bit in that many men from anywhere in the world can comment on you.

Satire, mockery and ridicule are the only tools of speech available to defang fundamental religious beliefs and normalize a process of not allowing religions to overrule human rights/safety.

As religious as this lady may still be I'm sure she'll understand to live in freedom and to have religious beliefs while being able to take off modesty garbs, said beliefs also have to be free for criticism, ridicule and satire. That's how we bring many people along in ignoring the pages and pages and pages of complete bullshit in all the Abrahamic religions. Or the cultural bullshit that often gets tied to the religions.

9 times out of 10 when these debates exist online it's men fighting with each other. Maybe think about why that is? More often than not the women probably don't have the same security to explore freedom of thought in life/online or the consequences they may face could be severe.
 

Deleted member 888

User requested account closure
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Oct 25, 2017
14,361
Shit like this going on right now too

"My family is strict and locked me in a room for six months just for cutting my hair," she said, adding that she was certain she would be imprisoned if sent back. "I'm sure 100% they will kill me as soon as I get out of the Saudi jail," she said, adding that she was "scared" and "losing hope".

A 20-year-old friend of Qunun, whom the Guardian has chosen not to name and who recently moved from Saudi Arabia to Australia, told the Guardian the threats to her were real. "She's ex-Muslim and has a very strict family, they're using violence with her and she faced sexual harassment," she said. "She received a threat from her cousin – he said he wants to see her blood, he wants to kill her."

She said: "If they didn't kill her they couldn't go [around in] public after this [Qunun renouncing the Muslim faith], so they have to do it. It's like, 'If you're a man you should prove it'. If they don't kill her they can't go outside and see other men."

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...held-bangkok-fears-will-be-killed-repatriated

Supposedly this is a real account





Good luck with the UK after this

He went on: "It does seem to me that Britain is now a country that is unsafe for those who may be tarred with an allegation of blasphemy. We are very aware that there are extremist elements in this country."

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...fered-uk-asylum-amid-concerns-unrest-attacks/
 
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Rendering...

Member
Oct 30, 2017
19,089
A perfect illustration of religion's toxic effect on society. The reaction from these demented fools isn't remotely surprising.

Religion really is the world's greatest delivery system for ignorance and injustice. Life is so much better without all this garbage.
 

anamika

Member
May 18, 2018
2,622
9 times out of 10 when these debates exist online it's men fighting with each other. Maybe think about why that is? More often than not the women probably don't have the same security to explore freedom of thought in life/online or the consequences they may face could be severe.

YES! For example, I am curious how many muslim women are in this thread being outraged at the criticisms of Islam or religion in general? Or is just men being angry at the generalizations of billions of muslims?

The idea behind the Hijab is problematic - no matter how you spin it. It is a symbolism of how a woman should be modest and virtuous - ideas that are antithetical to gender equality and how women should be treated in the broader society. This idea that women are evil creatures responsible for men getting attracted to them is the kind of medieval thinking that leads to victim blaming a woman for getting raped and widely prevalent in many societies. The brutal gangrape of a girl in India led to many top religious figures blaming the girl instead of the rapist.

Just think about it, the bible blames Eve for seducing Adam and being responsible for the troubles of mankind. God punishes her with having to suffer child birth. Hinduism calls for women to barred from certain temples because they could drive the so called all powerful god into temptation. Muslim women have to wear the Hijab and cover up so as not to tempt men. I am not that familiar with Budhism and the other eastern religions, but this seems to be the core theme of religions - that all women are by nature disobedient, guileless, weak-willed, prone to temptation and evil, disloyal, untrustworthy, deceitful, seductive, and motivated in their thoughts and behaviour purely by self-interest.

Liberal muslims should be actively campaigning for getting rid of the Hijab and what it stands for. I don't see anything good about a woman wearing it. A head scarf for fashion or just to be comfortable? Fine. A religious Hijab? Yeah, no. That's a symbol that shits on everything a women has a right to be.

How about this. Let all the outraged men wear a hijab and walk around for a change. Be modest and virtuous so that women are not attracted to you sinful creatures! Since you hold God and religion in such high regard, it should be rather easy for you guys right?

I don't know about the West or the theocratic countries in the middle east. But in India, Hindu and Muslim women are fighting back against the restrictions place on them by these patriarchal religions - they have gone to court and demanded their constitution rights. And that's why the country is in turmoil right now as women fight back against age old customs put in place by men.
 

lordg

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
139
User Banned (Permanent): Supporting Genocide
Muslim is such a backwards religion. At least China is doing something about it.

Mod Edit: Reverted Post to a Previous Version
 
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lordg

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
139
No i don't support genocide. I just feel so bad for Muslim women, they're so suppressed.
 

Messofanego

Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,178
UK
Muslim is such a backwards religion for women. At least China is doing something about it.
No i don't support genocide. I just feel so bad for Muslim women, they're so suppressed.
You feel so bad for Muslim women that you are fine with China's mass detention, surveillance, dehumanization, and torture of millions of Uighur Muslims. It's so bad that even USA Republican politicians are heading campaigns to criticise and sanction China. But sure, that's good in your eyes.

https://www.vox.com/2018/8/15/17684226/uighur-china-camps-united-nations
 

Deleted member 5127

user requested account closure
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Oct 25, 2017
3,584
I can say that in my country majority of female are being pressured to wear from their peers and/or husband

Sorry to hear that, I hope they get a chance to be themselves in our lifetime.

🤷🏽‍♀️ that's why I get really bothered when Hijabis glorify their choice in wearing the hijab, but fall completely silent about the women who are forced to wear it and/or are ostracized when they choose to take it off. We need more Muslim women standing up for each other in these situations.

It makes my blood boil, these women are out there and there are plenty of them if you look for them, they have very sad and heart breaking stories to tell but the left isn't giving them a platform, which frustrates me to no end as a liberal myself. They are either left to create their own platforms or they are given a platform by the right. Meanwhile the left gives a platform to people like Linda Sarsour despite her dabbling in homophobia and anti-Semitism.

The vast majority of Muslim women in the US/Canada don't wear hijab. Those that do are subject to far greater violence (from non-Muslims) than those that don't (from Muslims). If anything, wearing the hijab is like coming out, not the opposite.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/opin...muslim-women-islam-does-not-column/881492002/

https://www-m.cnn.com/2018/06/19/us/new-york-anti-muslim-harassment-survey-trnd/index.html


In the UK, the exact numbers may be different, but it's very common to not wear the hijab and again, those that do are subject to greater violence than those that don't. The woman in the OP is a prominent YouTuber, which makes her a target for the kind/level of harassment a private person would not face (and in fact, she's stated that in her private life her choice was supported).

Going to need some sources before I believe that because I really doubt that, especially looking at it world wide, the world doesn't just exist of America. Your links claim that women with hijabs are harassed by non-muslims, and I am very aware of that. I'm just not sure how it's relevant to women who are forced to wear it or what your point is other than pointing fingers at a different problem and trying to divert from the sexism in Islam.

The reason I compared it to coming out is because I am gay myself and I know a lot of LGBT people tell themselves lies and try to convince themselves they are straight growing up because of the consequences it would bring in their surrounding, plenty never come out and live a lie until they die. It's the same for most women who wear hijabs or burkas. I strongly believe that no person wants to live closeted, and no woman wants to live covered up, it's lies people keep telling themselves to make themselves feel better in the situation they are in. I have yet to see a good defence, even from women who say they wear it out of choice. They use similar defences to closeted (and religious)LGBT people.
 

Menx64

Member
Oct 30, 2017
5,774
It seems to me religions in most western countries are losing their pulpits, while in the middle east and Africa are gaining a lot of ground. Unfortunately many leaders are moving to the most hardlines of religion to try to keep their people in check. Hopefully as the new generations grow and get to power, the influence of religion will go down more and more around the world. I have nothing against religion, but as history shows, religious leaders are terrible in the long run.
 

Nerokis

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,567
This thread is solid evidence that religious illiteracy has consequences, and I say that as an atheist. People acting like the comments in the video are representative of the Muslim community, when Dina Tokio herself is a Muslim; people combining their surface level at best understanding of Islam with the most fundamentalist approach to Islamic texts possible, and somehow considering themselves insightful; people allowing themselves to understand the phenomenon of people being shitty through the most cliche anti-religion frameworks.

The end consequence is undertones of Islamophobia that somehow aren't acted on at all until someone straight up calls for genocide. Like, I read through this thread and wonder if a lot of you have ever even spoken to a Muslim woman before. I don't know how else someone could possibly think "finally, Muslim women are waking up"-esque comments are justified, helpful, or anything less than discriminatory in themselves.
 

Fugu

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,733
YES! For example, I am curious how many muslim women are in this thread being outraged at the criticisms of Islam or religion in general? Or is just men being angry at the generalizations of billions of muslims?

The idea behind the Hijab is problematic - no matter how you spin it. It is a symbolism of how a woman should be modest and virtuous - ideas that are antithetical to gender equality and how women should be treated in the broader society. This idea that women are evil creatures responsible for men getting attracted to them is the kind of medieval thinking that leads to victim blaming a woman for getting raped and widely prevalent in many societies. The brutal gangrape of a girl in India led to many top religious figures blaming the girl instead of the rapist.

Just think about it, the bible blames Eve for seducing Adam and being responsible for the troubles of mankind. God punishes her with having to suffer child birth. Hinduism calls for women to barred from certain temples because they could drive the so called all powerful god into temptation. Muslim women have to wear the Hijab and cover up so as not to tempt men. I am not that familiar with Budhism and the other eastern religions, but this seems to be the core theme of religions - that all women are by nature disobedient, guileless, weak-willed, prone to temptation and evil, disloyal, untrustworthy, deceitful, seductive, and motivated in their thoughts and behaviour purely by self-interest.

Liberal muslims should be actively campaigning for getting rid of the Hijab and what it stands for. I don't see anything good about a woman wearing it. A head scarf for fashion or just to be comfortable? Fine. A religious Hijab? Yeah, no. That's a symbol that shits on everything a women has a right to be.

How about this. Let all the outraged men wear a hijab and walk around for a change. Be modest and virtuous so that women are not attracted to you sinful creatures! Since you hold God and religion in such high regard, it should be rather easy for you guys right?

I don't know about the West or the theocratic countries in the middle east. But in India, Hindu and Muslim women are fighting back against the restrictions place on them by these patriarchal religions - they have gone to court and demanded their constitution rights. And that's why the country is in turmoil right now as women fight back against age old customs put in place by men.
Your point about the problematic nature of a bunch of men arguing about hijab is a poignant one. We would all be wise to note how the deficiency of perspective warps the debate here and elsewhere.

Do you think that women who choose to wear the hijab should be supported in doing so? Framed another way, do you think that laws restricting women from covering themselves in public are a good idea, even though they seem to have the paradoxical effect of restricting a woman's right to choose? I am aware that the use of the word "choose" here is somewhat loaded, but for at least some women the choice is presumably real and not constrained by the threat of abuse.
 
Oct 27, 2017
11,511
Bandung Indonesia
The reason I compared it to coming out is because I am gay myself and I know a lot of LGBT people tell themselves lies and try to convince themselves they are straight growing up because of the consequences it would bring in their surrounding, plenty never come out and live a lie until they die. It's the same for most women who wear hijabs or burkas. I strongly believe that no person wants to live closeted, and no woman wants to live covered up, it's lies people keep telling themselves to make themselves feel better in the situation they are in. I have yet to see a good defence, even from women who say they wear it out of choice. They use similar defences to closeted (and religious)LGBT people.

"Most" women who wear hijabs or burkas? You speak in such an authoritative manner as if your voice alone represent the will of hundreds of millions if not billions of Muslim women all around the world. You gets to decide their thoughts, their opinions about the matter? You can believe whatever you want, but there's plenty of women choose to wear hijabs out of their own free will, and many even think of it as a source of pride and self-identity. Who are you to decide that those that do are simply lying to themselves? You don't even want to hear their opinion, you are simply thinking that they can't think for themselves. That is such an arrogant attitude to take.

Source: I live in the most populous Muslim country in the world.

Also, thanks for Nerokis for the post below for giving the perfect example with Ilhan Omar. Sure there are women who are forced to wear hijabs/burkas and i am against that, but to say so authoritatively that those who wear it can't do so out of their free will is just your arrogance saying that you know what's best for those women and that they are simply unthinking creatures that can't form their own thoughts and opinions.
 
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Nerokis

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,567
Your point about the problematic nature of a bunch of men arguing about hijab is a poignant one. We would all be wise to note how the deficiency of perspective warps the debate here and elsewhere.

Do you think that women who choose to wear the hijab should be supported in doing so? Framed another way, do you think that laws restricting women from covering themselves in public are a good idea, even though they seem to have the paradoxical effect of restricting a woman's right to choose? I am aware that the use of the word "choose" here is somewhat loaded, but for at least some women the choice is presumably real and not constrained by the threat of abuse.

In actuality, it'd be nice to get more female Muslim voices in this thread.

Voices like this one:

For a minute, it felt good, even thrilling, to walk down Main Street exposed. I zipped past the family-friendly brunch district, footloose and fancy free.

I'm a Muslim woman who's worn a head covering for more than two decades, and I had decided to take my headscarf off for one sunny morning.

. . .

Despite chafing under its weight for a couple of years now, the headscarf has always been my choice. My mom doesn't cover, and my older sister unscarfed years ago. The reasons I started covering in high school were a mix of Koranic scripture and excuses to skip swim practice. But today, in a country where Islamophobia is so rampant, the choice to continue has felt masochistic at times.

Hijab was my version of teenage rebellion. The brazen act pushed an acne-prone, knobby-kneed, shy, brown-skinned girl into the spotlight. Covering gave me permission and sometimes little choice but to speak out, to represent myself and my faith.

. . .

Lightning did strike that day: I realized I missed being the girl in the headscarf. Uncovering wouldn't be as simple as just having one less accessory to worry about before leaving the house. To expose myself would mean giving up the me that I am today. I would have to unravel the past 25 years, and I'm not ready for that yet — to stand for something less than my faith.

But there was comfort in taking that walk, in acknowledging the jagged, imperfect edges of my religious practice and in allowing myself room to breathe. So every morning since, I wrap the piece of fabric around my face, an unspoken promise to continue challenging myself, held together by straight pins and a sometimes fragile faith.

Or, on the important subject of intersectionality which is totally missing in the post you quoted, this one:

In Donald Trump's America, few groups are as demonized as Muslims — and women worldwide are always oppressed based on their gender. But given the current president's past comments about Islam, Muslim women will suffer the double-edged sword of Islamophobia and misogyny, and if they are Black or darker-skinned, they will experience discrimination as well. Intersectional feminists need to show up for Muslim women in the face of these dueling axes of oppression, because we cannot push for the rights of some without working towards the rights of all.

. . .

People assume a lot of things about women in Islam — that they are oppressed, that the men in their lives are misogynists, that they come from specific countries and adhere to specific cultural practices, and many others. While it's true that there are Muslim women who do experience some or all of the above, that's true of women worldwide — and moreover, those notions are based in harmful myths and stereotypes about religion and cultures that are part and parcel of Islamophobia. Islam is as multi-faceted, nuanced, and complicated as every other religion, and the preconceived notions built on Western stereotypes of Muslims are almost always wrong.

And keeping on that subject of intersectionality, when you read things like this, how do comments like "liberal Muslims should be campaigning to get rid of the hjiab" hold up at all...?

Twenty-three years after leaving a refugee camp in Kenya, Ilhan Omar on Thursday became the first member of the US Congress to wear a hijab.

Rules were changed to allow Omar, a Muslim sworn in on the Qur'an, to wear a religious head covering on the floor of the House. There had been a 181-year ban on headwear of any type in the chamber.

"No one puts a scarf on my head but me," she tweeted last November. "It's my choice – one protected by the first amendment. And this is not the last ban I'm going to work to lift."
 
Oct 27, 2017
39,148
These people should go fuck themselves to oblivion.

Hijab is a Choice for women and it is haram for women to wear it if they aren't interested in it. (And no, they can't be pressured into agreeing because they have to believe in it).

Plenty of women in my family decided to wear and some did against the wishes of their family (reasons being some disliked it and some felt they were too young) but the women wore it proudly. Some took it off after they started wearing it because they didn't feel like they wanted to wear it anymore.

Hope she gets through this because from what I have seen of her, she is a better Muslim than these assholes combined.
 

anamika

Member
May 18, 2018
2,622
In actuality, it'd be nice to get more female Muslim voices in this thread.

But there are not, right? Is there any muslim woman among the posters here who has offered an opinion? Or any woman? It's just a bunch of muslim men arguing about how millions of muslim women should have the right to wear the Hijab. What is wrong with a woman who has suffered similar gender discrimination under her religion talking about something similar in Islam?

Millions of Hindu women believe that women should not enter a sacred temple. I want to enter that temple and pray the same as them. The choice of these women to support this gender discrimination is taking away my right to pray the same as a man would be able to. I can therefore empathize with a muslim woman forced to wear a Hijab while another woman sees it as a source of muslim pride.

As for the posts you quoted: There is no doubt that these women see the Hijab as a source of muslim pride and rebellion. I am asking if the Hijab - which, as per Islam, is about a woman being modest in front of men, should be this symbol around which muslims should have pride in their identity - seeing as how it signifies oppression for thousands of other women?

Ilhan Omar can take pride in her Hijab, but by not wearing that same Hijab, Dina gets death threats.

Don't all the men here lecturing me about intersectionality see why the Hijab is problematic? I definitely stand against racism against muslims and discriminating against them or attacking them for wearing the Hijab. But I clearly disagree with the notion that the ideas of the Hijab and behind the Hijab should be nurtured. By doing this we are encouraging the thought process that women should be modest and virtuous in front of men so as to not attract them and this is highly problematic and dangerous in our societies. You can see it in this very video where men hurl gendered and sexual slurs at her and call her a slut and prostitute - because she's not modest anymore.

Again, I am against the idea of the Hijab - that women be dressed modestly in front of men. As I said above, if liberal muslims want to adopt the Hijab as a sign of muslim pride, why don't the men wear it for a change and walk around? Why can't they be modest for a change and not sinfully tempt women? Maybe that would change the idea behind the Hijab and not make it as dangerous as it is now.

To put it simply, the idea that women are responsible for tempting men and attracting them is a dangerous idea that is prevalent even in western society - she asked for it. And ideas like the Hijab is only supporting this.

Do you think that women who choose to wear the hijab should be supported in doing so? Framed another way, do you think that laws restricting women from covering themselves in public are a good idea, even though they seem to have the paradoxical effect of restricting a woman's right to choose? I am aware that the use of the word "choose" here is somewhat loaded, but for at least some women the choice is presumably real and not constrained by the threat of abuse.

It is, as I said, a complicated topic and yes, restrictions would be infringing on religious rights and a woman's right to choose. At the end of the day, I think muslims themselves should take the step of rejecting what the Hijab stands for . Seeing all the impassioned arguments above throwing around words like intersectionality, I don't think that's going to happen.

I personally don't think such ideas should be encouraged in the West. From personal experience, I know how hard it is to fight against deeply entrenched religious beliefs for equal rights for minorities in countries where such patriarchal customs have been practiced for centuries. I would rather Western countries don't allow such medieval, anti-woman ideas to flourish.

I find it rather funny, that I am not allowed a voice in this discussion because I am not a Muslim woman. And then the same post opines on intersectionality. I have lived and worked in the United States as a women of color in the STEM field in academia. I know what it is like to be discriminated against based on my race and gender. But apparently these things don't count because I am not muslim.
 
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Deleted member 888

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Oct 25, 2017
14,361
Again, I am against the idea of the Hijab - that women be dressed modestly in front of men. As I said above, if liberal muslims want to adopt the Hijab as a sign of muslim pride, why don't the men wear it for a change and walk around? Why can't they be modest for a change and not sinfully tempt women? Maybe that would change the idea behind the Hijab and not make it as dangerous as it is now.

To put it simply, the idea that women are responsible for tempting men and attracting them is a dangerous idea that is prevalent even in western society - she asked for it. And ideas like the Hijab is only supporting this.

Because men want power and control over women. Even if it's a subconscious fall in line and blindly support everything a preacher, Imam or holy book says kind of power. You see how dangerous it is for women to question authority in religions, but it can still be for men at times. Their fellow men will attack them, ostracize them or worse if they leave the herd of male domination. Stay in line and don't you dare suggest those women should be treated fully as equals. Don't you dare suggest sexism is sexism.

Power feels good, makes you feel superior and at the same time, many of these men will be watching porn, sleeping outside of marriage and then in more extreme cases beating or raping women. Ironic isn't it. Enforce morality laws/oppression on women, live a life not enforcing said oppression on yourself because you have a dick and are a man. Men don't wear burqas and have to stay at home/not have autonomy.

All Abrahamic religions are steeped in sexism and male superiority. The only progression civilization has to move forward is a constant critique, mockery and ridicule of blatant sexism and sexist practices. Zero tolerance. No going backwards.

Yes, you have to use your scalpel to try and do it efficiently and with a thought towards not victim blaming, but cowering away from it because well-meaning idiots are ready to paint everyone critical of religious sexism as a bigot? Yeah, that's not how you help future generations who want spirituality in their lives to reform/modernize.

We live in 2019, not thousands of years ago.

Probably not the most popular man around here, but Hitchens seen all of this time and time over, from Christianity/Catholicism to Islam



Islam features more in the spotlight in our current time because it's becoming a growing religion in many Western nations. Most of us in our lifetimes have already seen the fierce battles against Christianity and Catholicism, notably to pass things like legal abortion and legal gay marriage. Not to mention all the smaller battles around sex education, contraception and morality policing of girls (Catholicism especially wants a vice grip over girls/women and to force notions of immortality around sex outside marriage. Or celibacy for priests. Because that works well.).

That's not to say battles against Christianity and Catholicism when it comes to sexism/literalism/bullshit have ended, but we have been trending towards reform and less nonsense for a while

2M5KFmK.png


http://www.brin.ac.uk/figures/attitudes-towards-gay-rights/

Thanks in part to all the people who have fought over the years and not been afraid of the well-meaning idiots calling all criticism bigotry or the religious people who shout "I'm offended! You're blaspheming!".

Progress doesn't care about your feelings. Either you get with the times or you will be left behind. Either you speak up for equal rights, or you'll get trampled on over time. As I said above most activists and those who speak out will try to use a scalpel to attack effeciently and with thought in mind to victims, but many will not be impressed with you playing the offended/bigotry card as a means to defend the status quo/defend sexism or hide behind the bigotry of low expectations.

I expect the same from Islamic men as I do from Christian or Catholic men. The three dominant religions of our times. You can all argue over what God you think is the real one, that's up to you and your faith, but none of you should be getting any special treatment around sexism/beliefs and actions that are of times well before our current education/understanding of humans.
 
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Deleted member 8860

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Oct 26, 2017
6,525
Going to need some sources before I believe that because I really doubt that

The numbers were right in the sources I linked in the post (for the US -- there do not appear to be any useful stats for the UK, just that far less than 1% of British Muslim women wear veils; anecdotally, relatively few wear headscarves, either).

60+% of American Muslim women do not wear head coverings. 27% of those that do in NYC were physically assaulted (for being visibly Muslim) in a one year period on subway platforms alone.

Where are the numbers, sources, or stats for the narrative you want?

Quite frankly, the idea that people who choose something you don't like must be lying to themselves is both disturbing and disgusting.

Ilhan Omar can take pride in her Hijab, but by not wearing that same Hijab, Dina gets death threats.

Ilhan Omar has gotten more death threats -- and been subject to more physical assault -- for wearing a hijab than Dina (or Rashida Tlaib) has for not (even prior to the 2018 election).

We don't need to denigrate one to support the other.
 
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Nerokis

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,567
Ilhan Omar can take pride in her Hijab, but by not wearing that same Hijab, Dina gets death threats.

Don't all the men here lecturing me about intersectionality see why the Hijab is problematic?

And Ilhan Omar had to fight to be able to wear her hijab in Congress, because the prospect of Muslim women ever serving in that chamber never crossed the minds of the rule makers.

That's why I emphasized intersectionality in my post: it seems to me that calling for a feminist campaign against the hijab requires a massive blindspot. What about all the women for whom wearing the hijab feels much more dangerous than not wearing it? The women who are marginalized and discriminated against on the basis of their Muslim faith? What good does it do them to dismiss their opinion on the hijab as spin and internalized misogyny and whatever else? You're just contributing to their marginalization and to the demonization of their religion.

It's not like religion has the market cornered on patriarchy. I don't know a single woman who hasn't grudgingly accepted or tolerated or even reclaimed some patriarchal forces in her day to day life. The difference when it comes to religions like Islam is all that conflict, all the complexity, all the range is flattened out, and something having problematic dimensions suddenly means directing all women to entirely abandon it.

I find it rather funny, that I am not allowed a voice in this discussion because I am not a Muslim woman. And then the same post opines on intersectionality. I have lived and worked in the United States as a women of color in the STEM field in academia. I know what it is like to be discriminated against based on my race and gender. But apparently these things don't count because I am not muslim.

Being an atheist male posting in this thread, I'm a walking low bar as to the sort of voices allowed here. Of course your voice as a woman is particularly useful compared to mine.

I'm simply pointing out the obvious: that this discussion would have gone in a much better direction if more Muslim women were a part of it. Wouldn't you agree that's the key perspective in any discussion about the hijab...?