Well learn how to use the word properly, and maybe I would take you a bit more serious. I don't understand why you feel like having a fruitless discussion about it, knowing I can't change your mind nor can you change mine.
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Ms. Marvel Casting Controversy
- Thread starter FaultLineBlues
- Start date
Well learn how to use the word properly, and maybe I would take you a bit more serious. I don't understand why you feel like having a fruitless discussion about it, knowing I can't change your mind nor can you change mine.
No one is "accepting" that. No one is making that argument. No one is being asked what their religious beliefs are when auditioning for these roles, and no applicant should be forced to disclose their religious beliefs to prospective employers.
I agree. This is part of the wider problem of underrepresentation of Muslims in Hollywood and media in general. If Muslims aren't even given the chance to play Muslims, then what's left?
is casting a muslim actress in a muslim role really a "religious test" or simply getting underrepresented talent in underrepresented roles?
y'all act like this is a slippery slope and soon no actors will be able to get Hollywood jobs unless they're muslim or some shit.
y'all act like this is a slippery slope and soon no actors will be able to get Hollywood jobs unless they're muslim or some shit.
Or did they cast a half white actress because of racial purity nonsense?since there has to be an built in reason for them to ever cast someone as non-white in the first place, like we have here and they still went with someone half white
Regardless of whether this thread was about women, BIPOC or queer representation (all of which I am a part of), my post would have been the same. I also grew up as a hijabi Muslimah in a post 9/11 world. Muslim members deserve the same respect, which they are almost never afforded on this forum. Even during the Christchurch shooting threads you had people dogwhistling. So frankly no it isn't a "religious test", it's asking for the same basic decency we should afford to all minorities, that Muslims are so rarely afforded.
You'd think simply asking for better representation meant that we were asking for a new law to be passed with some of these replies.
some of the posts in this thread are disgraceful
people really talking about slippery slopes in regards to better representation for a marginalized group, what in the fucking fuck
people really talking about slippery slopes in regards to better representation for a marginalized group, what in the fucking fuck
As an Arab Muslim I hope they fix this. Some people might not think it's a big deal, but you all haven't heard Naveen Andrews in the role of Sayid in Lost making some guttural noises then realize that that was him pretending to speak arabic. Hell even when they do cast an Arab as in Arab the accent is almost never right, like this is supposed to be Iraq, but one guy is talking in an Egyptian Accent and the other guy has a Lebanese accent (or even worse an Israeli Accent).
Imagine you're sitting down to watch some movie and there's a scene in modern day Texas where they meet the sherif named Johnny Texas and he rides up on a pony with a costume store cowboy outfit with the hat worn back to front and he goes "Ello, ello, ello, what's all this then?" in a thick British accent, and it's all played straight and not as the joke it is.
I know some might think I'm exaggerating but I really am not.
Imagine you're sitting down to watch some movie and there's a scene in modern day Texas where they meet the sherif named Johnny Texas and he rides up on a pony with a costume store cowboy outfit with the hat worn back to front and he goes "Ello, ello, ello, what's all this then?" in a thick British accent, and it's all played straight and not as the joke it is.
I know some might think I'm exaggerating but I really am not.
No one is saying otherwise. Unless of course said religion is also marginalised and under represented and would be better represented by someone from that background.
This isn't about all religions. Christians are not marginalised in the west. It's asking for accurate representation for an incredibly oppressed minority group. A Christian or Hindu woman would NOT have had the same experience as me. Growing up as a visible Muslim in a post 9/11world is a unique experience that others will not completely understand. Making this about religions in general is missing the point.
I don't know about yall but when there's an issue regarding religious minorities in america the group I want to hear from most are white culturally christian atheists
I think we have quite a bit in common with respect to a lot of these issues. I appreciate you speaking up and speaking out. That said, I think we differ with respect to this particular approach;
As some have similarly expressed, qualifying discussion as a matter of faith makes me, as a Muslim, deeply uncomfortable. It's one thing to raise up our voices to be heard, but personally I would prefer to do so without demanding everyone else be silent (so long as they aren't gaslighting of course). To that point:
With respect to specifically calling out folks who were dismissive of our concerns, I agree with you wholeheartedly in that they should not be dismissed. My gut tells me it doesn't feel it's right to extend that to say anyone (be they especially south asian, Arab, Pakistani, etc) that has a feeling about the minority castings in general should not have a say about this character if they aren't also Muslim. (Indeed the issues this thread about are complex as they involve both ethnicity AND faith, two things which are in fact unique conversations, as Islam is not a monolith. )
And, one last issue about qualifying the discussion in this manner is, unless people are specifically forthright about what faith they are in this discussion, we don't know who and who is not Muslim—and it's not fair to make people do so if they want to express their concerns, because they may be uncomfortable doing so.
And tbh, Era has had a real problem with religion and religious discussion, among other things - And seeing how disastrous the engagement with the trans community has been (though I will credit the staff for the honest effort to improve), I can barely fathom how well it would go.
edited for formatting.
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Sure thing bud, let me know when that happens yeah? Cause right now Muslims can't even bank on playing Muslim characters. What chance do you think we have at going beyond that?
This.
Also, you can change your religion - you can't change your ethnic background.
Edit: after reading more posts, there is something to be said for more well-rounded representation of Muslims in media - especially since a large portion of Muslims depicted in movies, shows and games are terrorists/bad guys. However, I still don't think one's religion should disqualify somebody from a role (although the experience of somebody of that religion should definitely be seen as a plus during casting.
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That's not the slippery slope people fear. If employers can force applicants to disclose their religious beliefs before being eligible for a role, then they can do so for whatever reasons they want, to both screen for and out particular minorities. There is simply no way to allow for positive discrimination without opening the floodgates to the far more typical negative.
Good point this. Especially given how awful Hollywood is, you can imagine some pretty underhanded shit taking hold.
what's the phrase? " The road to hell is paved with the best of intentions...?"
You know there are plenty of people who are open about their faith, right? No is asking for new laws or for producers/directors to force anything. Slippery slope arguments in threads like these are always such bad faith.
I gotta differ with you there. It is a legit concern in this country because the US had a horrible track record with ethnic and religious minorities, and seeing how dangerously close we are careening toward fascism it's an even greater concern not to end up on a list somewhere. Really, something doesn't necessarily have to be a law to be abused.
I'll be open about my faith to you, for example, but I'm not putting up a happy Eid sign in my yard in this country 😅.
FWIW, these castings are based off of the below post, which gets it's info from a fan. Dunno how reliable Murphy's Multiverse is as a site.
www.murphysmultiverse.com
Additional 'MS. MARVEL' Casting Revealed! - Murphy's Multiverse
This week gave us a big drop of casting news for the Disney Plus Hawkeye series, which began…
www.murphysmultiverse.com
interesting that the discussion is primarily around religion but not so much about the actor not being Pakistani. I'm curious what level of granularity is reasonable - both from ensuring representation of minorities but also avoiding exclusion because of it.
i.e how specific should you set your casting 'net' for a role based on ethnicity, religion, sexuality etc? In this case an Indian is cast as a Pakistani character. Should it have gone to someone from Pakistan, or is flexibilty reasonable to allow casting of ethnically similar but not exact?
i.e how specific should you set your casting 'net' for a role based on ethnicity, religion, sexuality etc? In this case an Indian is cast as a Pakistani character. Should it have gone to someone from Pakistan, or is flexibilty reasonable to allow casting of ethnically similar but not exact?
To get to a slippery slope from "hey this religious Muslim girl character would have been better representation if played by a Muslim girl" to outing religious minorities is just not in good faith, I'm sorry. If employers do that, they should of course be torn to pieces, but that's ignoring a valid concern with fear mongering that is so far removed from what is being asked for.
User Banned (2 Weeks): Dismissing concerns of Muslim representation across a series of posts
Sure. The point is that no one should have to be open about their faith in order to be eligible for a role.
So how do you go about limiting a role to actors with the same religious beliefs as the characters without casting directors being able to ask those auditioning about their religious beliefs?
Are you accusing me of arguing in bad faith?
I am absolutely firm in my belief that underrepresented minorities need much, much more representation on screen, but that that representation must be limited to "characters that look and sound like me" and never "actors that believe what I do".
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I think it's moreso the 'being compelled to reveal your religion for a job' issue that's the core problem with this kind of qualifier (and is a valid civil rights concern) — Again, in an ideal world this would not be a concern, but never underestimate the shittiness of people with any kind of influence or power.
So I think it's absolutely fair to keep it in the 'nice to have' category rather than 'must be X to qualify', whereas making the actor's ethnicity a requirement is absolutely reasonable in order to represent the underrepresented.
This is where I am. An actor/actress can and should be able to play any role, political, religious or not at all. Ethnic I can see due to the visual aspects, but religion is a too far for me. While representation would be great, I am not sure we want to start having these kinds of purity tests lest we start seeing non-Christian actors start being precluded from roles based on their religion.
This is a very valid point.
In a large majority of fiction, the subject of religion does indeed tend to be avoided almost entirely, beyond stuff like characters just saying the word "God" here and there or whatever. And of course to the extent religion is invoked in fiction, it tends to be some denomination of Christianity or Catholicism, maybe.
That being the case, in a work where religion is actually directly invoked, and we're dealing with characters whose faith is a strong part of what makes these characters ego they are in their works.... If one of the few times religion actually is invoked, and not just religion in general, but Islam specifically, if that isn't the time to cast Muslim actors.... Well, when is exactly?
I fully understand you.
Like, why not look for actors that can speak with authentic accent or have a similar background? I can kind of understand if someone was making a movie in Japan or other smaller countries. In the US though? The country is full of different people and has pretty much every nationality you want. If they wanted to cast someone for a role and wanted to respect the culture/background they are portraying then it should be easy to find the actors.
A lot of people say "well they can't find actors for the job so it is fine" but that is bullshit. A lot of actors just don't get any kind of work. Aladdin is a good example.
Framing it in this way is also erroneous. It's not about "believing what I do" it's about having similar experiences pertaining from a relevant background. Actors do have some control over their portrayal of their characters and on occasion the script, as well intentioned as it might be, may need a little help in its translation to the big screen - something that someone with those experiences could provide.
User banned (2 weeks): inappropriate tone policing over concerns of minority representation
Yea, this is a really shitty attitude with respect to this topic. And as Modus pointed out, it's this kind of attitude that leads to the very kind of backfire that sets things back.
You realize Kamala isn't born in Pakistan either right? And just because she (both her and the actress) is born stateside doesn't invalidate Pakistani heritage.
200%.
Hollywood is really bad at this, because they just don't give a single fuck. Like most of the time they represent a European language, the people used are very noticeably not native speakers.
So for a language with the incredible cultural and geographical breadth of Arabic, they don't even try. They never cared in the first place, they pat themselves on the back for caring so much they did not cast a white person acting a funny accent and move the fuck on.
I absolutely loathe the "we're lacking the talent"/"we choose the best actor for the job" argument. No you fucking don't, you just don't give a shit because your whole industry is built around a white American point of view.
Fuck off with the pearl clutching about "religious tests" for actors. Until Muslims are properly represented in media, y'all can miss me with that shit.
If you're not part of the community, you don't get to decide who or what's appropriate to represent us.
They're just so transparent
If you're not part of the community, you don't get to decide who or what's appropriate to represent us.
They're just so transparent
Nope, she's correct. You don't have a clue.
Muslims can demand proper representation, they already don't get enough and here is a popular character getting a show and they already dropping the ball in regards to that
The actual problem is a lot of your types don't wanna listen to the actual people affected and want to scream over them.
If you not even part of the Muslim community, what makes you think you can argue against them in terms of representation.
Once the issue is about Islam and Muslim people, a lot of y'all "progressives" fall right into that same garbage bin we place the other goofys in fast
Is Hollywood suddenly at risk of a muslim takeover? Because last I checked, Hollywood casting is so heavily fucking skewed against casting muslim actors for anything that doesn't involve a convenience store or a suicide bomber's vest.
Asking that the muslim community be thrown a fucking bone when casting a superhero show that directly deals around the main character's muslim identity shouldn't be a huge fucking ask.
I don't think that and this are very comparable. There aren't a ton of jobs that depend on your personal life experience for eligibility. The only reason this one does is because the job is straight up portraying someone who lives this life, so you'd want to get someone who actually lives this life.
I thought this was animated. Had no idea it was live action.
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Since the casting is unlikely to be undone, if these character portrayals turn out to be positive, thoughtful, and generally well recieved, would you consider it a net gain for representation?
Just say you don't care about Muslim representation (which some have here and that's fine, just a matter of opinion) than this disingenuous fear-mongering about slippery slopes. People going on about "religious tests", y'all know if there's a casting call for Muslim actors to play a Muslim character, there's no test to prove you're a Muslim. Not all Muslims look alike, sound alike, believe alike. You're just going to have to taken them on their word that they say they're Muslim and would like representation in characters they play as. Representation through Muslim actors means more jobs for other muslims, opens the doors, etc. Just because there will be type casting, doesn't mean you stop. That's the fault of casting directors and actor agents not seeking out variety of roles for actors. You know how this industry works, c'mon. As a Muslim, we're just saying it would be nice to be accurately represented.
Same thing goes for Pakistani representation. Plenty of Indian actors play Pakistani actors for so long, miss out the details in characters, and Pakistani actors don't get opportunities because to usually white audiences it doesn't make a difference so Pakistani actors have to fight extra hard.
Like right now, Riz Ahmed (British Pakistani) is getting amazing roles in brilliant films this year such as Mogul Mowgli (where he plays a British Pakistani Muslim rapper) and Sound Of Metal (American metal drummer). He's been in mainstream roles like Venom. He's not getting typecasted. He's been great since Britz and Four Lions. It means more people like him will get more roles because they see how great how he's doing and so casting directors and agents see opportunities.
Same thing goes for Pakistani representation. Plenty of Indian actors play Pakistani actors for so long, miss out the details in characters, and Pakistani actors don't get opportunities because to usually white audiences it doesn't make a difference so Pakistani actors have to fight extra hard.
Like right now, Riz Ahmed (British Pakistani) is getting amazing roles in brilliant films this year such as Mogul Mowgli (where he plays a British Pakistani Muslim rapper) and Sound Of Metal (American metal drummer). He's been in mainstream roles like Venom. He's not getting typecasted. He's been great since Britz and Four Lions. It means more people like him will get more roles because they see how great how he's doing and so casting directors and agents see opportunities.
Do yourself a favor and put these south park-raised dipshits arguing about religious tests on ignore, bad faith actors finger wagging poc for wanting more is very common even in fake lefty spaces like this forums.
Pronoun game on point, but screw those uppity brown folk.
Pronoun game on point, but screw those uppity brown folk.
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I don't think that's really the point. It's kinda hard to have good Muslim representation without Muslims, regardless of how good a job they do at portraying one.
It's really not that hard to find an actors with the same skin tone and religious history as the characters they are portraying.
Its disappointing to see how quickly this discussion has become vitriolic, but I'm hardly surprised.
If I am applying for work, or reading for a part, and someone tells me I need to disclose my religion to get considered, unless I'm applying to be some sort of religious position, that's a big red flag. Full stop.
Representation is important, and so is privacy and being free from other types of discrimination and persecution. And that isn't some hypothetical slippery slope, this is a real issue and a real concern, and it has happened in this country and most assuredly will happen again.
And let's not forget modern Islam is hardly unified in how it even views itself.
I'll reiterate: for the actor being Muslim is a 'nice to have,' but the minute you start making it compulsory you're opening the door to some truly awful shit.
I'll go one step further, if the actor in question is willing to have a consultant on set and in the writers room to ensure proper representation of the faith onscreen, that's enough.
With that, I'm peacing out of this swirling mess.
I despise posters who this shit in threads like this. If you're going to leave the topic, then just go.
Don't post your point of view then finish with "anyways, I'm out" so you can have the last word.
User threadbanned: Hostility
My question is, why you you do much more concerned by this hypothetical that you entirely made up, than the reality that groups such as Muslims have to fight harder for and are too often turned down for roles because there just magically happend to be someone "better qualified" for the job, even when the job is essentially just being themselves?
Getting some BIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIG "Nana Ruth" (for those not familiar Nana Ruth is something that began as a parody post that turned into a meme, where, in the subject of Black Lives Matter protests and shutting down highways and stuff, people were more concerned about hypothetical "Nana Ruths" in ambulances that wouldn't be able to get to the hospital in time than the actual real grievances of the BLM protesters, and y'know, actual black people being shot dead by cops for no reason, just bring more concerned about their made up hypothetical Nana Ruth than anything black people had experienced and continue to experience and caring more about the hypothetical than the reality, just like this) energy at being more concerned about this hypothetical situation then the actual current lived reality of too many minority actors and actresses.
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Agreed, I'm german so not exactly a minority but it still annoys me when I see a "german" character speaking some garbled version of the language that's barely understandable and I remember back in the 80s when I grew up most german characters were either nazis or lederhosen wearing, yodeling villagers. It kinda sucked and that was with me living in germany and getting a lot of good representation from german shows so it must be a thousand times worse for muslims in america.
It's not impossible to get it right they just have to want to get it right.