MS and Sony update/clarify BC status for next-gen consoles

[riotous]

No, see, Sony needs to give specific numbers and a specific date of when exactly those games will be playable and with all the enhancements. Anything less is bad and confusing messaging.

/s

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Or maybe a rough estimate would be nice?

They are being cagey about it; consumers want to know more.. why are people so damn defensive of Sony and how people react to their messaging? It's great they've tested hundreds of games.. just would be nice to know what they expect to be ready for launch besides "almost all of the top 100 played games." (which they also already tested.. and don't expect to have all ready for launch.. so "Testing != playable at launch.")

But we have ~8 months so this isn't the end of the world of course; either should saying you wish they'd say more though.

 

[Deleted member 887]

Or maybe a rough estimate would be nice?

They are being cagey about it; consumers want to know more.. why are people so damn defensive of Sony and how people react to their messaging? It's great they've tested hundreds of games.. just would be nice to know what they expect to be ready for launch besides "almost all of the top 100 played games." (which they also already tested.. and don't expect to have all ready for launch.. so "Testing != playable at launch.")

But we have ~8 months so this isn't the end of the world of course; either should saying you wish they'd say more though.

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They aren't being cagey at all. They are just saying they believe majority of games will work and right now they are actively testing to make sure of that. It's pretty clear cut

 

[Loudninja]

They aren't being cagey at all. They are just saying they believe majority of games will work and right now they are actively testing to make sure of that. It's pretty clear cut

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I mean I have no idea how many times this has to be explain.

 

[riotous]

They aren't being cagey at all. They are just saying they believe majority of games will work and right now they are actively testing to make sure of that. It's pretty clear cut

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What is clear cut about what will be ready at launch?

I mean I have no idea how many times this has to be explain.

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And I don't understand why people think they are "explaining" anything. Sony has said very little about what will be ready at launch. You guys aren't explaining anything, just claiming something is clear cut when it isn't.

 

[Ukumio]

This isn't the full count. Go to the store's list of all games and just select "Device=PS4". The list has 4,569 matches. This does still include bundles, special editions, etc. So I checked every 10th page from 10 to 100 (10, 20, 30, etc.). There are 65 listings that would need to be removed, out of 360. Presuming the sampling is unbiased, this would project 3744 games total, not including bundles, special editions, or apps. Adding games that aren't available in my region should easily take it above 4000.

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I'm going off of this list, as well as this one, and this one. I agree that Wikipedia isn't 100% accurate and that there may be some missing titles, but there is also some crossover between the main list and the VR list so I daresay that this would give us the closest number we can have without going through each and every title on the PS4 store.

Metacritic has listings for ~3200 PS4 games as well. TrueTrophies has ~6500 games but some games there have separate listings for NA, EU and Asia versions of the games.

In fact, if you go to Playstation Store website it allows you to filter by Device and even filter out bundles. By doing so I got 2628 games. This is of course was the Australian store but it's repeatable by other people in other regions so feel free to try it out.

I think, without compiling a list from every region and getting rid of duplicates that ~3,200 is the most accurate number we can get, but its still a far cry from 4000+

EDIT: So, slight disclaimer on the Playstation store numbers, I found out after posting this that some games are ONLY availiable in bundles and leaving that unchecked means they don't show up and a lot of recent games are sold exclusively as bundles nowadays so this creates a massive discrepancy. This is unfortunate and means the Playstation Store method can not be used to count the number of games.

 

[bishoptl]

This entire thread is highly entertaining

anyways, whichever system has Turok backwards compatibility support day one gets my vote

 

[Fisty]

Man riotous still going strong, it's been days

 

[Liabe Brave]

I think, without compiling a list from every region and getting rid of duplicates that ~3,200 is the most accurate number we can get, but its still a far cry from 4000+

EDIT: So, slight disclaimer on the Playstation store numbers, I found out after posting this that some games are ONLY availiable in bundles and leaving that unchecked means they don't show up and a lot of recent games are sold exclusively as bundles nowadays so this creates a massive discrepancy. This is unfortunate and means the Playstation Store method can not be used to count the number of games.

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I went ahead and bit the bullet, and just manually counted every game in the store. (Yes, I know this is ridiculous.) As I said, there are 4569 listed for PS4 in the US region. I mistakenly said it was 36 per page, it's actually 30. I subtracted all duplicates, special editions, and a handful of avatars and DLC that snuck in. The true number of unique PS4 games on the US store is 3653.

The Japanese store lists 400 more items than the US store. Even if every single US game is also listed in Japan--which is clearly not the case--that still leaves this 400 as the minimum overflow. Presuming the same ratio of duplicates, that'd be 320 more games at least. There will be other unique games in the Asian and European storefronts as well, of course.

I think it's extremely safe to say that Sony's "over 4000" number is correct, and doesn't include special editions, bundles, etc.

 

[riotous]

Man riotous still going strong, it's been days

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I literally didn't comment for an entire day on this..

Doesn't stop the thread derailing drive by bullshit though.

 

[travisbickle]

This entire thread is highly entertaining

anyways, whichever system has Turok backwards compatibility support day one gets my vote

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What's a Turok?

 

[Harp]

I'm still curious if either Mech Assault or Mech Assault 2 will get BC. It seems pretty heavily tilted towards a big fat no at this point, but i would take either one. Doesn't even need to be both. I just want to play Mech Assault again, man.

 

[Loudninja]

I went ahead and bit the bullet, and just manually counted every game in the store. (Yes, I know this is ridiculous.) As I said, there are 4569 listed for PS4 in the US region. I mistakenly said it was 36 per page, it's actually 30. I subtracted all duplicates, special editions, and a handful of avatars and DLC that snuck in. The true number of unique PS4 games on the US store is 3653.

The Japanese store lists 400 more items than the US store. Even if every single US game is also listed in Japan--which is clearly not the case--that still leaves this 400 as the minimum overflow. Presuming the same ratio of duplicates, that'd be 320 more games at least. There will be other unique games in the Asian and European storefronts as well, of course.

I think it's extremely safe to say that Sony's "over 4000" number is correct, and doesn't include special editions, bundles, etc.

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Talk about dedication dude lol,great work!

 

[B.O.O.M.]

I went ahead and bit the bullet, and just manually counted every game in the store. (Yes, I know this is ridiculous.) As I said, there are 4569 listed for PS4 in the US region. I mistakenly said it was 36 per page, it's actually 30. I subtracted all duplicates, special editions, and a handful of avatars and DLC that snuck in. The true number of unique PS4 games on the US store is 3653.

The Japanese store lists 400 more items than the US store. Even if every single US game is also listed in Japan--which is clearly not the case--that still leaves this 400 as the minimum overflow. Presuming the same ratio of duplicates, that'd be 320 more games at least. There will be other unique games in the Asian and European storefronts as well, of course.

I think it's extremely safe to say that Sony's "over 4000" number is correct, and doesn't include special editions, bundles, etc.

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haha damn. Good work!

 

[Servbot24]

honestly who cares if either one is 100%. both of them are going to cover the heavy hitters. sure you might miss out on some shovelware, big whoop.

 

[Deleted member 1003]

I went ahead and bit the bullet, and just manually counted every game in the store. (Yes, I know this is ridiculous.) As I said, there are 4569 listed for PS4 in the US region. I mistakenly said it was 36 per page, it's actually 30. I subtracted all duplicates, special editions, and a handful of avatars and DLC that snuck in. The true number of unique PS4 games on the US store is 3653.

The Japanese store lists 400 more items than the US store. Even if every single US game is also listed in Japan--which is clearly not the case--that still leaves this 400 as the minimum overflow. Presuming the same ratio of duplicates, that'd be 320 more games at least. There will be other unique games in the Asian and European storefronts as well, of course.

I think it's extremely safe to say that Sony's "over 4000" number is correct, and doesn't include special editions, bundles, etc.

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Doing great work! Bravo.

 

[DocH1X1]

They aren't being cagey at all. They are just saying they believe majority of games will work and right now they are actively testing to make sure of that. It's pretty clear cut

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But then why say we expect most of the top 100 at launch. That clearly sounds like less than 100 at launch. And what time table we talking here? 360 levels of testing and time cause that took xbox years and they had a dedicated team.

 

[diablogg]

But then why say we expect most of the top 100 at launch. That clearly sounds like less than 100 at launch. And what time table we talking here? 360 levels of testing and time cause that took xbox years and they had a dedicated team.

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I get why people were confused about the messaging first, many websites were confused as well, especially when looking at Cerny + the blog, but they've since came out and clarified overwhelming majority will be playable, to my mind more than a majority is at LEAST half of the library. I'd say set your level of expectation of backwards compatible games at 1,700.

 

[TitanicFall]

But then why say we expect most of the top 100 at launch. That clearly sounds like less than 100 at launch. And what time table we talking here? 360 levels of testing and time cause that took xbox years and they had a dedicated team.

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It's a benchmark. "We tested the top 100 most played games and the majority work fine without a patch." That's a decent sample size. If your game isn't in the top 100 that doesn't mean it won't be playable day one. They don't need to whitelist games like MS does with 360 BC. You're free to try any PS4 game you own. Just some may have issues that devs have to release a patch for. Some devs may have moved on and won't patch anything so in that case you're probably out of luck.

 

[riotous]

It's a benchmark. "We tested the top 100 most played games and the majority work fine without a patch."

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They didn't day this or indicate what percentage need patching. All they said is they'll have almost all of the top 100 playable at launch.

The hope being that some of the other "hundreds" they've tested and beyond will also be ready by launch of course but we don't really know as Sony hasn't said.

 

[Liabe Brave]

Doing great work! Bravo.

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I just did the same thing with the Xbox One store page. It was much faster, because Microsoft does not list multiple versions, and has fewer bundles (though they do include some). The true number of unique Xbox One games listed for the US is 1607.

This is so much below the PS4 number that I doubt it's wholly accurate. But I couldn't figure out any way to check for a more exhaustive list. Please let me know if anyone finds one. But even if the above number is a significant undercount, it doesn't seem plausible that it's only 50 or 60% of the actual number. Surely Microsoft wouldn't leave that many available games off their website? Thus I think it's plausible--if unproven--to conclude that there could be 1500 more PS4 games than Xbox One games.

If so, even an 80% compatibility level for BC on PS5 would cover more games than 99% compatibility for XSX.

 

[Frost1800]

I just did the same thing with the Xbox One store page. It was much faster, because Microsoft does not list multiple versions, and has fewer bundles (though they do include some). The true number of unique Xbox One games listed for the US is 1607.

This is so much below the PS4 number that I doubt it's wholly accurate. But I couldn't figure out any way to check for a more exhaustive list. Please let me know if anyone finds one. But even if the above number is a significant undercount, it doesn't seem plausible that it's only 50 or 60% of the actual number. Surely Microsoft wouldn't leave that many available games off their website? Thus I think it's plausible--if unproven--to conclude that there could be 1500 more PS4 games than Xbox One games.

If so, even an 80% compatibility level for BC on PS5 would cover more games than 99% compatibility for XSX.

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Well, I suppose there are a zillion niche Japanese games, that most people have never heard of, and are not on Xbox one.

* Many games I play are in this category, so I think it is not too surprising.

 

[Liabe Brave]

Well, I suppose there are a zillion niche Japanese games, that most people have never heard of, and are not on Xbox one.

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Niche Japanese games are likely responsible for pushing the PS4 game count over 4000, yes. But my impression from skimming is that's not what's responsible for the larger catalog versus Xbox One. It's mostly Western indies, followed by VR games.

 

[Frost1800]

Niche Japanese games are likely responsible for pushing the PS4 game count over 4000, yes. But my impression from skimming is that's not what's responsible for the larger catalog versus Xbox One. It's mostly Western indies, followed by VR games.

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Well, I think all three are responsible. For the PS US store, the western indies and VR are more responsible sounds reasonable, so I think you are right.
Maybe for the Japanese store, the niche Japanese games are more responsible? I am not sure how many Xbox One games are released in Japan.

Anyway, thanks for you insight, it seems I underestimated the number of western indies on PS4 vs. Xbox One. Your hard work at counting games is quite helpful.

 

[bane833]

What's a Turok?

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Some bad game from 1997.

 

[TheChronic2060]

I love how back compat has become a battleground for next gen warz. Its pretty obvious that Microsoft has put not only a lot of work into BC for years now, but also designed the Xbox One to provide BC for 360 games. All the while youve had people in countless threads claiming that BC is worthless, articles claiming that no one are using it, and exexutives from Sony being equally ignorant on the matter.

And now we are supposed to believe that Sony suddenly has «put a lot of work into PS5 BC», but there are still only vague notions of how its going to work out.

Going by their latest effort in the Playstation Classic, I dont have much confidence in how much time and money they are going to invest in the project. Because it must have cost Microsoft a ton of money to get to where they are now.

And still this is only PS4 back compat, while PS1 and PS2 games might be playable over remote play if the questionnaire they sent out earlier in the year is anything to go by.

Im just curious why Microsoft has changed their wording on the matter now, though. And what games that dont make it over wont be; are they triple A games from big publishers that for some reason put their foot down, or are they indie games that for some reason technical or licensing wont make it. I wouldnt be surprised if it were the former, since back compat has a lot more attention now with next gen looming. Some games maybe back compat on one of the consoles, just like certain games have been exclusive. That would be awful.

 

[DocH1X1]

I get why people were confused about the messaging first, many websites were confused as well, especially when looking at Cerny + the blog, but they've since came out and clarified overwhelming majority will be playable, to my mind more than a majority is at LEAST half of the library. I'd say set your level of expectation of backwards compatible games at 1,700.

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It's a benchmark. "We tested the top 100 most played games and the majority work fine without a patch." That's a decent sample size. If your game isn't in the top 100 that doesn't mean it won't be playable day one. They don't need to whitelist games like MS does with 360 BC. You're free to try any PS4 game you own. Just some may have issues that devs have to release a patch for. Some devs may have moved on and won't patch anything so in that case you're probably out of luck.

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Again I'm not disagreeing with anything you both just said but what's a realistic time timetable with no dedicated back compat team? 100 or so playable at launch, how long before we get to 1,000 or 1,500...... 2 years 4 or 6 or 8 years????

 

[cakely]

They didn't day this or indicate what percentage need patching. All they said is they'll have almost all of the top 100 playable at launch.

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Are you really still doing this?

 

[Eeyore]

Again I'm not disagreeing with anything you both just said but what's a realistic time timetable with no dedicated back compat team? 100 or so playable at launch, how long before we get to 1,000 or 1,500...... 2 years 4 or 6 or 8 years????

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I think it's clear that you don't know what Sony is doing here if you think a. there are only going to be 100 playable at launch, that is absolutely not true from what they've said b. that they don't have a dedicated team testing to make sure that the legacy and boost modes as well as the PS5 "PS4 Mode" are working.

They didn't day this or indicate what percentage need patching. All they said is they'll have almost all of the top 100 playable at launch.

The hope being that some of the other "hundreds" they've tested and beyond will also be ready by launch of course but we don't really know as Sony hasn't said.

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Sony hasn't announced any PS5 games, I guess Godfall is the only game coming to PS5. This is the type of logic you've been using for days. Seriously doesn't it get tiring? I am by no means averse to being suspicious of corporations, but at this point, if what you are claiming comes to fruition, they will be battered in the media and places like this.

 

[DocH1X1]

I think it's clear that you don't know what Sony is doing here if you think a. there are only going to be 100 playable at launch, that is absolutely not true from what they've said b. that they don't have a dedicated team testing to make sure that the legacy and boost modes as well as the PS5 "PS4 Mode" are working.



Sony hasn't announced any PS5 games, I guess Godfall is the only game coming to PS5. This is the type of logic you've been using for days. Seriously doesn't it get tiring? I am by no means averse to being suspicious of corporations, but at this point, if what you are claiming comes to fruition, they will be battered in the media and places like this.

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Can you show me a quote where it clearly says they will have more than a hundred READY for launch????

 

[Thatguy]

Historically whenever a console has BC I end up using it for like 2 games so looks I'm all set.

 

[Eeyore]

Can you show me a quote where it clearly says they will have more than a hundred READY for launch????

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Can you tell me how many times you've gone to the bathroom in your life??????

The logic you and riotous are using is based completely on insincerity and you are only acting this way towards Sony and not Microsoft, who by the way, had to walk back their BC themselves. Be suspicious of both corporations and stop your dumb ass war.

 

[Era of not Yakuza]

a rough estimate would be nice?

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Hundreds were tested with thousands more to come until the launch.

 

[DocH1X1]

Can you tell me how many times you've gone to the bathroom in your life??????

The logic you and riotous are using is based completely on insincerity and you are only acting this way towards Sony and not Microsoft, who by the way, had to walk back their BC themselves. Be suspicious of both corporations and stop your dumb ass war.

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Walk back? Xbox has said all but basically kinect titles (due to no kinect port since the original xbox s) will be available at launch DAY 1. Trying to act like that and sony not committing to a number other than 100 AT LAUNCH is insane console warrior bs.

Not to mention all the 360 amd OG xbox titles already ready to go day 1 as well. Comparing that and all xbox one games minus kinect only to a semi "garunteed" 100 ps4 games at launch is some crazy mental gymnastics my man.

 

[Deleted member 1003]

Can you show me a quote where it clearly says they will have more than a hundred READY for launch????

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Dude. The blog is pretty clear. The first paragraph:

UPDATE: A quick update on backward compatibility – With all of the amazing games in PS4's catalog, we've devoted significant efforts to enable our fans to play their favorites on PS5. We believe that the overwhelming majority of the 4,000+ PS4 titles will be playable on PS5.

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The second paragraph and likes where you constantly get hung up on, is in reference in testing the PS4 titles with the boosted frequency of the PS5, versus regular BC, or PS4 and Pro mode:

We're expecting backward compatible titles will run at a boosted frequency on PS5 so that they can benefit from higher or more stable frame rates and potentially higher resolutions. We're currently evaluating games on a title-by-title basis to spot any issues that need adjustment from the original software developers.

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This is the 100 titles they have tested with the PS5'a boosted frequency.

If the titles can't run at the PS5 boosted frequency then they just run in legacy mode.

It's pretty simple you're just being miopic on purpose.

 

[DocH1X1]

Dude. The blog is pretty clear. The first paragraph:



The second paragraph and likes where you constantly get hung up on, is in reference in testing the PS4 titles with the boosted frequency of the PS5, versus regular BC, or PS4 and Pro mode:



This is the 100 titles they have tested with the PS5'a boosted frequency.

If the titles can't run at the PS5 boosted frequency then they just run in legacy mode.

It's pretty simple you're just being miopic on purpose.

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So I reread that first paragraph. Those are available at launch or just generically sometime in the ps5 console lifespan?

 

[retrosega]

I'm expecting the vast majority of PS4 games to be compatible with PS5 just like I'm expecting the vast majority of xbone games to be compatible with XSX.

I think both companies will achieve a level of BC that just about everyone will be happy with.
Gonna be a great gen imo.

 

[Eeyore]

Walk back? Xbox has said all but basically kinect titles (due to no kinect port since the original xbox s) will be available at launch DAY 1. Trying to act like that and sony not committing to a number other than 100 AT LAUNCH is insane console warrior bs.

Not to mention all the 360 amd OG xbox titles already ready to go day 1 as well. Comparing that and all xbox one games minus kinect only to a semi "garunteed" 100 ps4 games at launch is some crazy mental gymnastics my man.

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No they haven't actually. They walked that back and used the word 'thousands'. Perhaps you'd know that if you weren't so overly invested in your war.

 

[DocH1X1]

No they haven't actually. They walked that back and used the word 'thousands'. Perhaps you'd know that if you weren't so overly invested in your war.

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Man A - there is roughly 3k plus games in the entire lifespan of said console all but a handful of kinect games wont work

Man B - Well yeah but they walked it way back and said only said thousands (plural) will be good to go

Man A - oh ffs

 

[Midas]

I've never seen so many people argue so confidently and passionately over competing PR statements while having absolutely no knowledge of the reality of the situation.

Edit: To be clear, as my uncle works at Nintendo and not at Sony or Microsoft, I also have no idea. But I know that I don't know.

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Haha, you and me both.

 

[GS_Dan]

The only BC title that really matters to me on PS4 is Rock Band 4.

 

[Eeyore]

Man A - there is roughly 3k plus games in the entire lifespan of said console all but a handful of kinect games wont work

Man B - Well yeah but they only said thousands (plural) will be good to go

Man A - oh ffs

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Do you have any self awareness? I'm serious. Have you read your posts and thought "hey maybe I should apply the same standard to Microsoft"? Because you should. Be suspicious of both and stop whatever the fuck you're doing here.

 

[Deleted member 1003]

So I reread that first paragraph. Those are available at launch or just generically sometime in the ps5 console lifespan?

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Good lord. If the system can run games in PS4 and PS4 Pro mode, then it can run the PS4 game on the PS5.

If you're looking for someone from Sony to call you at home then you're hopeless.

 

[Deleted member 63305]

I love how back compat has become a battleground for next gen warz. Its pretty obvious that Microsoft has put not only a lot of work into BC for years now, but also designed the Xbox One to provide BC for 360 games. All the while youve had people in countless threads claiming that BC is worthless, articles claiming that no one are using it, and exexutives from Sony being equally ignorant on the matter.

And now we are supposed to believe that Sony suddenly has «put a lot of work into PS5 BC», but there are still only vague notions of how its going to work out.

Going by their latest effort in the Playstation Classic, I dont have much confidence in how much time and money they are going to invest in the project. Because it must have cost Microsoft a ton of money to get to where they are now.

And still this is only PS4 back compat, while PS1 and PS2 games might be playable over remote play if the questionnaire they sent out earlier in the year is anything to go by.

Im just curious why Microsoft has changed their wording on the matter now, though. And what games that dont make it over wont be; are they triple A games from big publishers that for some reason put their foot down, or are they indie games that for some reason technical or licensing wont make it. I wouldnt be surprised if it were the former, since back compat has a lot more attention now with next gen looming. Some games maybe back compat on one of the consoles, just like certain games have been exclusive. That would be awful.

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WELL said. I think the main issues if games are not B/C from Xbox are license issues. I think Phil has stated in a few past interviews that legal issues and license issues are the biggest hurdle for the program.

 

[Deleted member 1003]

Do you have any self awareness? I'm serious. Have you read your posts and thought "hey maybe I should apply the same standard to Microsoft"? Because you should. Be suspicious of both and stop whatever the fuck you're doing here.

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Honestly I'm even sure why they care?

Just trying to stir people up, DocH1X1 be like:

"Well! Until Mark Cerny goes on Twitch, holding two forms of identification, with his Sony business card stapled to his head, while showing the PS5 play all the thousands of games, and also saying to the camera that every game ever made will be playable, while R Kelly is peeing on him, then I'll believe it."

 

[DocH1X1]

Good lord. If the system can run games in PS4 and PS4 Pro mode, then it can run the PS4 game on the PS5.

If you're looking for someone from Sony to call you at home then you're hopeless.

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Right but I thought the whole point is there not ready and have to be tested? Why say that if they wouldn't be good to go?

 

[black070]

We have actual numbers though for Xbox at launch. Do you want to dig out this post if Sony don't offer the same at launch? Because they're not in the same boat at all.

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Lol, this really is a competition for some of you.

 

[Deleted member 1003]

Right but I thought the whole point is there not ready and have to be tested? Why say that if they wouldn't be good to go?

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You're doing it again. You're conflating the PS4 games running on BC with the games being tested with the PS5 boosted frequencies. They are not the same. They are testing titles to work with the PS5 boosted frequency, we have no idea how many have been tested and how long the testing process takes. Otherwise, if they don't work with the PS5 boosted frequency then the game just runs in legacy mode OR same as they do now on the current consoles.

What are you doing? Why this crusade? Why this? Out of all things? Are you expecting some big GOTCHA moment in November so you can wave your proverbial thing around?

 

[Eeyore]

Right but I thought the whole point is there not ready and have to be tested? Why say that if they wouldn't be good to go?

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The PS5 is going to have three profiles for PS4 games and there are thousands of games on PS4 that they need to go through. Do you think Microsoft isn't doing testing? Fuck this, I'm going to go play Animal Crossing, go analyze the fact that Sony didn't say PS5 will play PS5 games until you're blue in the face.

Honestly I'm even sure why they care?

Just trying to stir people up, DocH1X1 be like:

"Well! Until Mark Cerny goes on Twitch, holding two forms of identification, with his Sony business card stapled to his head, while showing the PS5 play all the thousands of games, and also saying to the camera that every game ever made will be playable, while R Kelly is peeing on him, then I'll believe it."

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Well it worked for me, goddamn it's irritating.

 

[RoastBeeph]

I think it's safe to say both PS5 and XSX will support almost all PS4 / XOne games. What i am most interested in is how those games will be upgraded, both automatically (filtering, HDR, etc.) and on a game by game basis that the BC teams spend time tinkering with.

 

[black070]

I think it's safe to say both PS5 and XSX will support almost all PS4 / XOne games. What i am most interested in is how those games will be upgraded, both automatically (filtering, HDR, etc.) and on a game you game basis that the BC teams spend time tinkering with.

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This is the more interesting part with BC on both consoles for sure. The upgrades on Gears 5 on Series X sound amazing.