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arsene_P5

Prophet of Regret
Member
Apr 17, 2020
15,438
10 pages later, do we actually know whats the real difference between PS5 and XSX/S regarding RDNA 2 or are people just speculating?
Just speculation.
The concept of nomenclature and implementation details are beyond a console warrior's comprehension, as evidenced by this thread.

Todays AMD presentation mentioned Direct Storage, DirectML and XDR in the context of RDNA2, all of which is just Direct-X specific nomenclature, with no bearing on Sony's potential implementations.

Also, DirectML is entirely GPU agnostic. The operators that are hardware accelerated depend solely on what's implemented by the vendors. Supporting DirectML lends zero information in regards to actual hardware support. Heck, it can even work without a GPU entirely, since it has CPU fallbacks for everything.
This isn't true imo as both made changes to the GPU. For example Xbox has enhanced the ML capabilities of the consoles.
t's just marketing. "The only console that uses full RDNA2" could just as well have been "The only console that uses standard RDNA2".

The first sounds much better than the second. Sony isn't able to say either of those things because they have made customizations. We just don't know yet how those customizations compare to the standard features.
So Microsoft bought the GPU at walmart? Both companies customized the GPU to their liking.
From what we know Sony's answer to VRS, as an example, is the geometry engine by implication from these tweets
Oh yeah, I had completely forgotten about that tweet. Interesting times ahead indeed.
Nope. The twitter user you guys quoted actually said that you can use both VRS and geometry engine. It's not the same thing. Thus the first tweet is a bit weird and not Sony's answer to anything. We don't know wether Sony has a equivalent to VRS.
 

Deleted member 57361

User requested account closure
Banned
Jun 2, 2019
1,360
Quite the opposite, AMD incorporated DirectX12 technology into RDNA2 (Mesh Shading, DX12 Ray Tracing, Sampler Feedback, Variable Rate Shading), not the other way around:
They incorporated it on their cards because DirectX it's standard for PC gaming development. The thing is, both consoles are using the base architecture for RDNA2, that's why PS5 can deliver those clocks. Saying that PS5 isn't full RDNA2 because it doesn't have some DirectX feature would be just like say AMD cards are not full RDNA2 because of some feature that Sony built by themselves that is present in PS5.

Anyway, the biggest info for me was that Sony is using their own RT API. I suppose Polyphony was involved in this, since they were researching RT for a long time.
 
Aug 31, 2018
18
Does PS5 GPU have hardware accelerated Machine Learning?

That is what matters, because DLSS will be a huge deal this gen. And it probably requires hardware accelerated Machine Learning, which I have not seen Sony talking about.
 

Garrett 2U

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,511
These are some really incredible technologies. Xbox and PC utilizing the same technologies will help ensure broad developer support.
 
Apr 4, 2018
4,513
Vancouver, BC
I wonder if Sony and Microsoft would have defaulted to AMD for its console if they knew DLSS was as much of a game changer as it is? Will be interesting to see what AMD is able to cook up.

I'm sure they were well aware of DLSS, but up until now, AMD was the only high-end graphics manufacturer that also produced industry leading CPUs.

AMD's value was always that they could produce a single hybrid chip with both an AMD CPU and GPU on it, and for a good price. That may change though in the next several years with Nvidia's purchase of Arm.
 

Leonine

Member
Sep 19, 2020
661
10 pages later, do we actually know whats the real difference between PS5 and XSX/S regarding RDNA 2 or are people just speculating?

What's in the Xbox is pretty much known, not the case with the PS5. All of it is speculation at this point.
We'd need Sony to do their own 'hot chips' style thing where they showcase all their tech, I doubt we'll get one though.
 

tzare

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,145
Catalunya
User Banned (1 Week) - Ignoring Staff Post with History of Accumulated Infractions
MS indirectly fueling console wars i see. Always seem to do the friendly talk but they act like this quite often.
Will be interesting to see if this is really a thing. Time will tell, there was an interesting video that kinda explained how this works, from RedGaming Tech if i remember correctly.
 

Landy828

Member
Oct 26, 2017
13,408
Clemson, SC
This is the part of the stream today where they talked about what they worked with Microsoft on.

msamdtpjys.png



However, this is something else I'm curious about. Does the Series X have this? Or is this a Desktop GPU only thing???

msamd2cxjv7.png
 

Bundy

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
20,931
But that means:

DirectX® Raytracing
Variable Rate Shading
Mesh Shaders
Sampler Feedback

All of them pretty important.
They will have their own versions of it. It's fine. All this here is just fuel for console wars, nothing more.
Just like 7 years ago when "InsertAnyFeature" could "close the gap". Remember that?
We have gameplay footage of next-gen games. You see a big difference there? Exactly.
 

MordinSolus

Member
May 1, 2020
50
Without seeing how Sony's custom solutions to these things work in the real world in actual games i'm not sure how people are really taking much from this either way. So far I think the PS games shown have proven early on they knew how to build the features they needed for their system.
 

Pryme

Member
Aug 23, 2018
8,164
Direct quote from that presentation, "With RDNA 2 we also focused on bringing new hardware features into the architecture. We partnered closely with Microsoft on Direct X 12 Ultimate features including: DirectX Raytracing, Variable Rate Shading, Mesh Shaders, and Sampler Feedback"


Those four bullet points, which Microsoft is touting as being part of the "full" RDNA 2 feature set, are all Microsoft created tech that Sony doesn't use in their API.

Mesh shaders are fully supported in OpenGL and Vulkan. It's not nearly as simplistic as 'Sony doesn't use DX12 so MS claims they don't have the feature'.

It's more like DirectX Ultimate features that are typical for DirectX and thus implemented in Next-gen Xbox.

The Xbox wire blog post looks to be talking about hardware, though.


What's this got to do with this thread?
 

nib95

Contains No Misinformation on Philly Cheesesteaks
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
18,498
Couple things to note. DX12 was announced after the Xbox One was released. Perhaps you are referring to just DX11?

I don't recall any gpu hardware features mentioned during the beginning of last gen driven by direct x. I could be mistaken though. Could you list them out?

My bad, mixed it with DX11.X or whatever the Xbox One version of 11.2 was called at the time. I believe some of the features advertised were things like geometry realizations, swap chain composition, draw bundles etc.
 

platocplx

2020 Member Elect
Member
Oct 30, 2017
36,072
They incorporated it on their cards because DirectX it's standard for PC gaming development. The thing is, both consoles are using the base architecture for RDNA2, that's why PS5 can deliver those clocks. Saying that PS5 isn't full RDNA2 because it doesn't have some DirectX feature would be just like say AMD cards are not full RDNA2 because of some feature that Sony built by themselves that is present in PS5.

Anyway, the biggest info for me was that Sony is using their own RT API. I suppose Polyphony was involved in this, since they were researching RT for a long time.
Yeah they def are per this doc. See the raytracing section.
 

arsene_P5

Prophet of Regret
Member
Apr 17, 2020
15,438
MS indirectly fueling console wars i see. Always seem to do the friendly talk but they act like this quite often.
Will be interesting to see if this is really a thing. Time will tell, there was an interesting video that kinda explained how this works, from RedGaming Tech if i remember correctly.
RedGaming Tech is speculation very often and iirc one of the former PS engineer called him out in twitter months ago.
 

RoboPlato

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,808
This is the part of the stream today where they talked about what they worked with Microsoft on.

msamdtpjys.png



However, this is something else I'm curious about. Does the Series X have this? Or is this a Desktop GPU only thing???

msamd2cxjv7.png
It does not. We have die shots of the Series X GPU and the Infinity Cache is not a part of it.
 

Deleted member 18324

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
678
User Banned (3 Days) - Ignoring Staff Post/Platform Warring
Weird how certain people will lap up everything Sony puts out, including peak bullshit like "supercharged pc", but get in their feelings crying about console wars (that they participate in daily) when a different manufacturer does the exact same thing (portray their product in the best possible light). You hate to see it.
 

arsene_P5

Prophet of Regret
Member
Apr 17, 2020
15,438
They will have their own versions of it. It's fine. All this here is just fuel for console wars, nothing more.
Just like 7 years ago when "InsertAnyFeature" could "close the gap". Remember that?
We have gameplay footage of next-gen games. You see a big difference there? Exactly.
In the same veins PS4 used the Jaguar CPU for audio, while Xbox One had dedicated hardware for these tasks? Companies make different choices and it's very unlikely everything will be the same when it comes to those features.

Cerny even said as much, when he talked in the deep dive how they work with AMD. How realistic is it that two independent teams ask AMD the exact same thing and those hundred developers at Sony/Microsoft independently develop the same solutions. Me winning a few millions is probably more likely than that.
 

Firmus_Anguis

Member
Oct 30, 2017
6,117
With these RDNA2 features being DX12-based, does that simply mean Sony has their own custom solution? (Since Schreier and others have indicated Sony's GDK's were further along).

Aside from the PS5 obviously not integrating DX12 features into their GPU, does this offer any tangible advantage that a custom solution simply couldn't?

It just seems that we're all wondering the same thing here, so any clarification would be much appreciated!
 

VG Aficionado

Member
Nov 6, 2017
1,385
All these articles are pointless. This close to launch they should be showing the games.

We already know that XSX is slightly more powerful than PS5 and that PS5's GPU traded some RDNA2 features for other custom-based solutions. However, Sony has been letting games do the talking and they're releasing two games next month that will set the bar as opposed to Microsoft, who seems to be emphasizing marketing labels instead.

With these RDNA2 features being DX12-based, does that simply mean Sony has their own custom solution? (Since Schreier and others have indicated Sony's GDK's were further along).

Aside from the PS5 obviously not integrating DX12 features into their GPU, does this offer any tangible advantage that a custom solution simply couldn't?

It just seems that we're all wondering the same thing here, so any clarification would be much appreciated!
As stated above, Cerny did confirm that himself. Not that it means much to laymen.
 

RoboPlato

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,808
Im curious about this as well. I thought i saw a rumor that PS5 might use this but who knows
edit: thx above to RoboPlato
It could be a while before we know if the PS5 uses this since Sony has never been as open about architecture as MS. We'll have to wait for some x-rays or presentations to know for sure. Sony's definitely doing GPU cache differently to MS because of the cache scrubbers and other features but we don't know if includes the same large cache as the PC GPUs
 
Oct 26, 2017
3,116
Amalthea
I wonder if Sony and Microsoft would have defaulted to AMD for its console if they knew DLSS was as much of a game changer as it is? Will be interesting to see what AMD is able to cook up.

They likely would have regardless. While the original XBox was powerful Xbox wasn't able to lower their prices because of Intel and Nvidia (not to mention the latter was akin to an aggressive bulldog trying to protect its property). MS went with AMD afterwards and changing it now would break all their emulation work IMO.

Dunno about Sony though, but I remember at one point the PS3 wasn't supposed to have a GPU and there were two HDMI poirts. lol
 

Deleted member 57361

User requested account closure
Banned
Jun 2, 2019
1,360
Forgot this doc was a thing, thx for share. Lots of good stuff to read from various stuff. More proof that Sony is doing their own things with graphical tech for their own reasons. Unfortunately, I doubt we will see deep info about them since Sony doesn't talk a lot about his tech. Maybe some more info at GDC if it happens next year. Anyway, nobody will care anymore after they see games running in the hardware.
 
Dec 8, 2018
1,911
Have any devs weighed in on this yet? Curious if there's any practical difference or not and want information from a non-PR source.

Matt on here working on both consoles have said in other threads that both have VRS, PS5 GPU is weaker than the one in XsX as the numbers suggest and that SSD difference is also as big as the number suggest basically.
 

Equanimity

Member
Oct 27, 2017
14,992
London
What are the potential differences we'll see in future titles between Series X and PS5? I asked two enthusiastic posters earlier but didn't get an answer.
 

Bundy

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
20,931
In the same veins PS4 used the Jaguar CPU for audio, while Xbox One had dedicated hardware for these tasks? Companies make different choices and it's very unlikely everything will be the same when it comes to those features.

Cerny even said as much, when he talked in the deep dive how they work with AMD. How realistic is it that two independent teams ask AMD the exact same thing and those hundred developers at Sony/Microsoft independently develop the same solutions. Me winning a few millions is probably more likely than that.
They have different choices. This is correct. See the difference in SSD, RAM setup, Audio-Hardware on the PS5.
In the end, it's a wash. Overall, we know that the tools Sony has (see multiple J. Schreier and Digital Foundry tweets) are amazing for developers and they're happy as hell. Xbox is doing fine, too. And this today ("full RDNA2 feautures" thanks to DX12 Ultimate ) is good marketing for them. That's basically it.
 

platocplx

2020 Member Elect
Member
Oct 30, 2017
36,072
Forgot this doc was a thing, thx for share. Lots of good stuff to read from various stuff. More proof that Sony is doing their own things with graphical tech for their own reasons. Unfortunately, I doubt we will see deep info about them since Sony doesn't talk a lot about his tech. Maybe some more info at GDC if it happens next year. Anyway, nobody will care anymore after they see games running in the hardware.
I forgot about that doc until recently as well I bookmarked it this time around. We def wont know we def may see some things when games get compared early in the gen. But its very clear they are doing certain things differently and they diverged on their own interpretations on raytracing, VRS, etc and/or found their own ways to tackle issues. Like great example is why they included cache scrubbers as their own customization etc.
 

arsene_P5

Prophet of Regret
Member
Apr 17, 2020
15,438
They have different choices. This is correct. See the difference in SSD, RAM setup, Audio-Hardware on the PS5.
In the end, it's a wash. Overall, we know that the tools Sony has (see multiple J. Schreier and Digital Foundry tweets) are amazing for developers and they're happy as hell. Xbox is doing fine, too. And this today ("full RDNA2 feautures" thanks to DX12 Ultimate ) is good marketing for them. That's basically it.
I think it's more than marketing, because there is no evidence suggestion PS5 has SFS (this is not SF) for example, while Xbox on the other hand has no evidence of having cache scrubbers. There are different solution for different problems and the consoles will have different advantages depending on the custom features.
 

VanWinkle

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,095
What are the potential differences we'll see in future titles between Series X and PS5? I asked two enthusiastic posters earlier but didn't get an answer.

Series X will have technologies to optimize the pipeline and deliver better framerates for perceptively similar visuals than PS5. But that's only if a.) Delelopers utilize those technologies, and b.) Sony doesn't have similar technologies they have developed themselves for the PS5.
 

rntongo

Banned
Jan 6, 2020
2,712
Its impressive that they were able to reveal the console before Sony despite waiting till RDNA 2.0 was finished. Maybe it was due to the simpler design of the console overall
 

rntongo

Banned
Jan 6, 2020
2,712
What are the potential differences we'll see in future titles between Series X and PS5? I asked two enthusiastic posters earlier but didn't get an answer.
The XSX GPU besides having higher tflops has a lot of other hw that can efficiently utilize the resources available to render higher quality graphics. So from what we know so far the GPU on the XSX is far superior to the PS5.
At the end of the day it comes down to what developers do with it. The PS5 devs wont have to develop for a lower specced SKU so thats a plus for them
 

Prine

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
15,724
Wonder how this sits with PC Devs, surely it's makes sense to Dev on GDK by default given how you'll get mostly a Xbox/Cloud version for free.
 

Potato Mage

Alt-Account
Banned
Apr 28, 2020
516
It's funny that the used Godfall to show off the DX12 tech. Will be interesting to see how the PS5 solutions compare to PC on release.
 

Nostremitus

Member
Nov 15, 2017
7,777
Alabama
I wonder what the difference is between the PS5 and Xbox GPU, then.

Back in July a Sony engineer said that they didn't use RDNA2, but created a hybrid chip somewhere between RDNA1 and RDNA2. Basically RDNA1 with some RDNA2 improvements added. I guess we'll never really know other than that it's not fully featured.

Will be interesting to see comparisons soon and if the missing features/capabilities actually matter for a pure gaming machine...
 

Minthara

Freelance Market Director
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
7,929
Montreal
Wonder how this sits with PC Devs, surely it's makes sense to Dev on GDK by default given how you'll get mostly a Xbox/Cloud version for free.

That's not how game development works. GDK or not, the QA needs are still different, especially for things like console cert.

It's not "free". In fact, it can cost hundreds of thousands of dollars extra for staff, cert checks, etc. depending on your title
 

Deleted member 57361

User requested account closure
Banned
Jun 2, 2019
1,360
Unless you are someone who notices graphical differences. We shouldn't downplay or up-play anything until we get real comparisons. Things will probably not be one to one.
Well, if you have both consoles and play on both side by side, sure you will be able to find some differences, even if they're small. But like I said, you'll need to look after these differences.