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Fawz

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,660
Montreal
It doesn't make for a better game in any way, but it does mean more people get easier access to the game and that there's more potential revenue to be had. For the cross-gen games that don't support Cross-play/buy/save I think it can cause some pretty notable negatives however

It's a great part of new console generation transition, but I fully expect it to phase out by 2022 for everything other than indie games and yearly copy-paste entries (ie: Sport titles)
 

Deleted member 60135

User requested account closure
Banned
Sep 21, 2019
169
Hm, sure doesn't seem like it.

Quoting a post that outright strawmans my argument after accusing me of strawmanning *your* argument makes me doubt your sincerity in regards to your original accusation.

"Other people understood what I said" in the most smug way imaginable also isn't actually that good of a counterargument.
 

Rodney McKay

Member
Oct 26, 2017
12,205
My only conundrum is whether I should get Miles Morales (or other cross gen games) now and play it on my PS4, or if I should wait (probably up to a year) and play it when I get a PS5.

I know if I get the PS4 version it'll upgrade to PS5 for free, but I doubt I'm going to want to replay the whole thing on PS5 if I already beat it on PS4.
 
Nov 1, 2017
1,365
I don't think that any dev would even think about realeasing such inferior version where you would watch four half minute loading screens that take 2 seconds on next gen hardware. In the end they would just scrap the whole idea. And your next-gen version would actually be held back by the old hardware.

Oh yeah it wouldn't make for a great gameplay experience if they ported it "as is" although i'm sure there are tricks that could be used to get it to work more seamlessly. But technically it could be done. I'm just not convinced that there is really anything so revolutionary in terms of the new consoles that couldn't just be done on the older ones but just... worse. Like honestly i'm more impressed by the instant level transitions in that infamous Titanfall 2 level than i am about what R&C is doing. If it was instant it would be really cool but all i'm seeing is 2 second loading screens every time they pull that stunt.

If a game comes along this gen that legitimately could never be achieved on the previous gen even with compromises then i would be excited to see what that would look like, I'm betting it's gonna be a while before it comes along, i'd guess during a time when again we're well past the stage of crossgen games being a thing. This is why i just don't buy the whole "crossgen games for a year or two" holding progress back thing. The last time we had such a seismic shift in power was going from the Mega Drive/SNES era to Playstation. And to a lesser extent PS1 to PS2 although some of those PS2 launch games totally could have been PS1 games, Fantavision for instance.
 

Vexed

Member
Jul 23, 2018
247
Quoting a post that outright strawmans my argument after accusing me of strawmanning *your* argument makes me doubt your sincerity in regards to your original accusation.

"Other people understood what I said" in the most smug way imaginable also isn't actually that good of a counterargument.

It doesn't strawman your argument at all, it's pointing out the part of the argument in my first post that you just glossed over.

And let me get this straight - answering the argument that "you sure said it in a very obtuse and undecipherable way" with examples of people clearly deciphering and understanding the thing said is not a good counterargument? I'd love to hear the pretzel logic behind that one.
 

Redstreak

Member
Jan 17, 2018
590
Quoting a post that outright strawmans my argument after accusing me of strawmanning *your* argument makes me doubt your sincerity in regards to your original accusation.

"Other people understood what I said" in the most smug way imaginable also isn't actually that good of a counterargument.
Who's straw manning? Do you know what the word "like" means? Do you know what simile and hyperbole are? You're just not going to get people to treat a new video game console like it's the next source of inequality we need to tackle because not everyone that wants one has one on launch day
 

Firmus_Anguis

Member
Oct 30, 2017
6,120
Nope, I don't quite agree. Spending your hard-earned money on a brand new console, expecting a next-gen experience only to play better running last-gen games is not the reason you spend that money on the console in the first place.

It's, IMO, equal to not getting what you paid for and it certainly doesn't jive with especially Sony's earlier messaging about "We believe in generations", yes, sure... Until the PS4 stops selling like hotcakes.

I don't mind them supporting the PS4, actually I'm all for it! I also expected cross-gen games for the first year...

But I'd much rather they make games for each system, so that they don't shackle their brand new console to 7 year old hardware. They have more than enough studios to pull it off and they should!

Nobody should have to wait 2-3 years to experience games only possible on next-gen. Why even bother releasing a new console if you don't intend to make games that fully take advantage of it?

I've already said it before, but a cross-gen God of War just simply isn't exciting to me. But to each their own, I guess.

Edit: Oh, and yeah... The increased price of games is yet another factor to consider here... Paying more for cross-gen games? Yeah, fuck that.
 
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cooldawn

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,449
Sorry but I have to disagree.

1. I want my new technology to shine...it can't while developers consider a previous generation
2. ÂŁ70 per game...I expect better, not just sharper or more frames

I understand that many more people own a previous generation consoles so even economically it makes sense to release cross-generational games but by no stretch of the imagination is it an ideal situation.

They either cut the cord or they don't. Neither have and the prospect of games for the next couple of years will suffer.
 

PucePikmin

Member
Apr 26, 2018
3,761
You've also cited exactly 1 game to prove your cross-gen claim, and again, are just ignoring that crunch for last-gen optimization is just a *form* of crunch, not actually what *causes* crunch. What about TLOU2? That was always meant to be a PS4 game. How does hardware factor in there? How does hardware factor into employees being required to look at gore for that game and MK11? You keep acting like crunch is because of some hardware constraint when it's not. You just straight-up don't get it.

Never said current-gen optimization is the only source of crunch, of course it isn't. That said, it IS a big source of crunch right now, so if you're against crunch you should be against crossgen games (that's what this tread is supposed to be about, remember?) The best and easiest path for developers is developing for a small number of platforms with ample power to bring their vision to life so they can focus on creating instead of optimizing. Developing for a half-dozen-plus SKUs, some of which are 7 years old, is bad for devs. Simple as.

But whatevs, I'm sure you'll find a new strawman to kick, so have fun.
 

Niosai

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,925
People complaining about cross-gen bothers me because it just screams privilege. I've never had the money to get a brand new console day-one outside of the Switch, and even that was the stars aligning for me. Especially right now, in a pandemic where so many people are already struggling financially. Hell, even if I could afford one, the availability is so limited right now that it'd probably be impossible.

Obviously there's the marketing and sales side with the install base of last-gen consoles, too, but I won't even get into that.
 

MrFox

VFX Rendering Pipeline Developer
Verified
Jun 8, 2020
1,435
It needs a mix of both. And Sony always had at least 2 years of continuing support for the previous gen (expecting 3 years this time around). They said that it would be a smoother transition (no cell processor in the way, and it's full BC), that they still believe in generations, and that they wouldn't change how they perceive generations. They are doing exactly what they promised and described.

Mandatory cross-gen would be a bad thing, it would inhibit some creative choices, and prevent next gen engines from using new paradigms in level design.

Mandatory next-gen-only would be a bad thing, it would be an aggressive way to forcefully upgrade, when many games don't need next-gen features yet.

As long as the developers are allowed to make the games they want, we should see a mix of both, with a more heavy bias towards cross-gen in the launch window, and progressively less cross-gen as games pre-production get started specifically for next-gen and cannot be ported down.
 

SamuelBeckwit

Member
Oct 27, 2017
272
As someone fortunate enough to get a PS5 and have some money left laying around for whatever, I welcome cross gen games. As long as they're not sacrificing mechanical gameplay, I don't give a damn about a lower fidelity version of a game existing for people who can't find or afford a new console. I'm sitting here watching someone play Spider-Man and it's wildly impressive.
 

Green

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,411
We hit a point some time last gen where I was pretty dang satisfied with graphics in and effects in most games. For me, the most important chase now is image quality/clarity and performance. Cross-gen achieves that handily as you don't need the new box to play the games, but if you do have them, you get a way better performing and looking rendition of the game more in line with what the artists intended. To me, at least right now, it's like MP3 vs FLAC, but for videogames.
 

Krypt

Member
Nov 10, 2017
1,123
Center of the World
hahaha really? where were all of you when Microsoft was getting the all the heat! when they were clear about cross gen games. but its cool now because Sony is doing it. The question is do you buy next gen console to play current gen games?
 
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Maple

Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,732
Can you give me some examples of something that legitimately could not be done on the previous generation of consoles?

World and level design can fundamentally and radically change with new hardware. This is something specifically that Mark Cerny mentioned during the Road to PS5 lecture he gave earlier in the year. He said that even since the PS2 days, level and world design hasn't changed that much, and that developers still architect these worlds around the limitations of slow I/O.

Destiny 2 is a perfect modern example of this. Here's the map for the Earth / European Dead Zone -

Excavation_Site_Map.png


Two things to notice -

- There are about 6 discrete play spaces, and they are fairly small.
- They are connected to one another by these long, winding, narrow "hallways".

Those empty narrow corridors exist to allow loading for the new play space that the player is entering. The play spaces on top of that are fairly small as well. You have a ton of dead space on this map, particularly in the middle. Nothing about this world design is because this is how Bungie wanted it to be, but rather how they had to design it based on the limitations of the hardware.

When I played through this planet when Destiny 2 released I didn't understand this convoluted design. I always wondered why Bungie didn't create a larger, more vast world without all of these weird hallways connecting these small play areas. Now I know why.

The PS5 and Series X completely remove this barrier. They allow for streaming of assets at a rate that's over 30x higher than the PS4 and Xbox One. With that kind of throughput, you don't have to rely on this design methodology anymore. You can create a massive open spaces with unique areas that literally would not be possible on older hardware.

Artificial Intelligence is another example. Enemy AI hasn't changed much in the past 10 years, and this is due to to the weak Jaguar CPU cores on the older consoles. So if you're an AI engineer writing code and developing new AI paradigms for an upcoming game, you have to write software that can be executed on those outdated cores. Conversely, if you're designing an AI system for just the new Zen 2 CPUs in the new consoles, you can create enemy AI that is far more complex, dynamic, and unpredictable.

The list goes on. These cross-gen games we're seeing now cut down on the loading times and bump up the resolution and framerate on the new consoles, but designing new games from the ground up for the newer hardware enables a vast array of new possibilities.
 
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PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
115,742
I don't care about resolution or ray tracing even a little bit, so if hardware isn't markedly improving the game design and world design of games, I don't really see a point in said new hardware at all.
 

TheRealMoB

Alt Account
Banned
Oct 1, 2020
362
We bought a new console to play new games that are developed in a way that can only be possible on said new console. Why is that so crazy? There are literally hundreds of games on the PS4 that are available for those who chose not to be early adopters. Also its not like the PS5 games are going anywhere. Just because you may not be able to play it at launch because you cant get the console yet doesn't mean they won't be there once you finally do. Why not just make it a PS3 game at that point because there are still loads of people who havent even been able to upgrade that yet either.
 

MrWindUpBird

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
3,686
I didn't buy a PS5 to play PS4 games (BC is a nice perk, though). I could have just kept my PS4 and saved $700. Cross-gen games can exist, that's fine, but don't pile on me if announcing a game as cross-gen deflates whatever hype I have for it and I just stop caring about it. Especially with this $70 ($90 here in Canada) pricing.
We've known for a while that Sony was doing cross-gen games. You could have just waited. No one forced you pay $700 for a console that will still be available next year.
 

Makoto Yuki

â–˛ Legend â–˛
Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,436
i don't get the hate for cross-gen. I'd prefer to play a game on the new hardware anyways for enhancements like 60FPS.
 

Antrax

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,286
I still don't get why everyone is afraid of cross gen games. We always got them.

Remember when Miles was announced and everyone was like "sdlnivsikgbdkr omg THIS IS NEXT GEN!!" followed by disappointment when it was announced as a cross-gen? Like that suddently changed what they had previously seen from that game, lmao.

Right, this. Every person doing that is a fanboy of the worst kind and they're mad they don't have that arrow to fire at the other fanboys.

I expect games to look and run better on better hardware, but that's it. It's not like exclusives ever really show off a console early anyway. How many people are out here hyping The Order or Ryze?

Devs aren't hitting those key software milestones early. Go look at some late PS3/360 games and then compare to their launch titles. Halo 4 still blows my mind
 

Chippewa Barr

Member
Aug 8, 2020
3,972
Tone shifted strongly after Sony announced crossgen games, but frankly I don't care much.

4K/60 fps versions of games is a great way to use my new PS5 tbh
The shift in this has been a sight to behold I tell you that
4 months ago you wouldn't have had such positive agreement on that...
Microsoft got dogged for months when they said they would do cross gen for a few years when Jim Ryan was out there talking about believing in generations. Now that it's clear that Sony is doing the same thing the conversation shifted to say that people who want next gen games just hate people with less money.

On the one hand I would like games built for the new consoles because they can better take advantage. On the other, the business just makes more sense to sell copies to the millions of last gen owners.
Let's be honest here, Sony made cross gen almost a dirty word in the run up to launch. Parts of this forum ate up that PR speak and used it as a point scoring tool rather than look at it from a balanced point of view like the OP. There's still a ton of money to be made on last gen especially with stock so low on X/S/PS5 so whether we like it or not cross gen games will still appear
Agreed on all fronts lol...these things are amazing to witness from the fence.

Some posters on here had bigger face turns about it than Stone Cold at Wrestlemania 13.
 

Iwao

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,800
No. Cross-gen is inevitable but as soon as we move away from it, the better. Games that are limited back by cross-gen development are limited forever unless they are remade at some point in the future, but at some point you'll still be able to afford and play games made only for next-gen consoles and those games will represent the best of that next-gen hardware.
 

Jawmuncher

Crisis Dino
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
38,506
Ibis Island
I don't mind sharing, so cross-gen content doesn't bother me. Spider-man: Miles Morales, sack boy, and others are still good games.

there's no denying new hardware can change how games are developed and what they can utilize, but a good game is still a good game at the end of the day.
 

Radium217

Banned
Oct 31, 2019
1,833
I'm fine with cross gen.
What I'm not fine with is people making excuses as to why either version performs poorly or isn't optimized well.

Games are a product and I've zero mercy for half-assed products. Especially when games have become so expensive.

So cross gen FTW just keep the quality bar high - otherwise pick one gen and do it properly.
 

Firmus_Anguis

Member
Oct 30, 2017
6,120
i don't get the hate for cross-gen. I'd prefer to play a game on the new hardware anyways for enhancements like 60FPS.
It's not only about performance/visuals. For me, it's mostly about game design.

These new consoles will allow for gameplay/game design that's literally impossible on last-gen hardware - More than ray-tracing and other fancy effects, it's the promise of developers being able to stream things in at speeds of 40-100 times faster than last gen that has me excited. Because it's just insane.

Developers don't even know how they'll utlise this yet, it's that much of a paradigm shift. It's much more than just faster loading times.

And it's what I've been looking forward to. Games designed around 7 year old console's will mean we'll at best only see faster loading times and fancier graphics/better performance.

Think of the jump from Black Flag to Unity... And then realise the jump is bigger this time around, so games designed with next-gen in mind will truly offer something new. It's my reason for wanting a next-gen console in the first place and it's why I dislike cross-gen games. I think it's a perfectly valid reason, but so is yours.
 

Le Dude

Member
May 16, 2018
4,709
USA
They were literally able to port one of this gens biggest games, the Witcher 3, down to Switch. It's silly that people are so worried.
 

Makoto Yuki

â–˛ Legend â–˛
Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,436
It's not only about performance/visuals. For me, it's mostly about game design.

These new consoles will allow for gameplay/game design that's literally impossible on last-gen hardware - More than ray-tracing and other fancy effects, it's the promise of developers being able to stream things in at speeds of 40-100 times faster than last gen that has me excited. Because it's just insane.

Developers don't even know how they'll utlise this yet, it's that much of a paradigm shift. It's much more than just faster loading times.

And it's what I've been looking forward to. Games designed around 7 year old console's will mean we'll at best only see faster loading times and fancier graphics/better performance.

Think of the jump from Black Flag to Unity... And then realise the jump is bigger this time around, so games designed with next-gen in mind will truly offer something new. It's my reason for wanting a next-gen console in the first place and it's why I dislike cross-gen games. I think it's a perfectly valid reason, but so is yours.

I get understand and agree with every point you make. Personally, less loading is already better for game design.

The less shimmying through tight passages, the less masked loads, make these games that much more appealing to play on PS5.

Imagine a potential God of War: Ragnarok where you skip the masked load screens while the potential PS4 version has mandatory running from zone to zone. Even that one difference would nudge me towards the PS5 version. Plus for those who just can't invest in a PS5, at least they can play the game in some format.

Ratchet and Clank seems like one of the best show cases of how to use the SSD.

I still don't have either the PS5 or XBX, but the fact that they load less already have me saving for either one.
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
115,742
I get understand and agree with every point you make. Personally, less loading is already better for game design.

The less shimmying through tight passages, the less masked loads, make these games that much more appealing to play on PS5.

Imagine a potential God of War: Ragnarok where you skip the masked load screens while the potential PS4 version has mandatory running from zone to zone. Even that one difference would nudge me towards the PS5 version. Plus for those who just can't invest in a PS5, at least they can play the game in some format.

Ratchet and Clank seems like one of the best show cases of how to use the SSD.

I still don't have either the PS5 or XBX, but the fact that they load less already have me saving for either one.

The problem being that cross-gen games won't be able to designed around these kinds of things. The shimmies will still be there, the slow walks will still be there, etc. You're not going to see developers make two entirely different bespoke game design structures for PS4 and PS5 individually, you'll just see things like the Bifrost transitions taking less time to queue up before their animation plays, and MAYBE skipping the "walking on roots" sections for fast travel gates.
 

Makoto Yuki

â–˛ Legend â–˛
Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,436
The problem being that cross-gen games won't be able to designed around these kinds of things. The shimmies will still be there, the slow walks will still be there, etc. You're not going to see developers make two entirely different bespoke game design structures for PS4 and PS5 individually, you'll just see things like the Bifrost transitions taking less time to queue up before their animation plays, and MAYBE skipping the "walking on roots" sections for fast travel gates.

Not saying they would develop different structures per system, just saying they will do what they can to optimize the time loaded on the PS5. If they shimmy or slow walk on the PS4 version, then the PS5 version does it faster, that's a win. Or the option to skip said masked loading section outright.

RE2 and RE3 remakes, while not a perfect example, is what I would point to. You can't skip the few walk-and-talk scenes in RE2 Remake, while in RE3 Remake you can. A couple seconds saved here and there add up to minutes and hours. Or if there are shimmying sections, PS5 version would shimmy animate way faster, or you can just skip it while the PS4 version would make it mandatory.

I'm no developer, so I dunno. I personally hope the true next-gen only games don't rely on any of these tricks.

Also, I sill expect a few cross-gen games for at least two years. MGSV was released in 2015 and Destiny in 2014. Looking back, it's pretty wild to think about that.
 

DontHateTheBacon

Unshakable Resolve
Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,383
Not saying they would develop different structures per system, just saying they will do what they can to optimize the time loaded on the PS5. If they shimmy or slow walk on the PS4 version, then the PS5 version does it faster, that's a win. Or the option to skip said masked loading section outright.
I agree mostly with your post but what if you wanted to develop an environment where you didn't need to have shimmy areas, or slow walk areas that would clearly show the game loading? It seems like a pain to make two DIFFERENT environments.

So you make the compromised PS4 version of the environment, and it just loads better on PS5. It's not always ideal in that sense.

Ultimately, I don't think it's a huge deal at all. It'll be interesting to see how game worlds and development change when the lowest common denominator is the current platforms.
 
Nov 1, 2017
1,365
- There are about 6 discrete play spaces, and they are fairly small.
- They are connected to one another by these long, winding, narrow "hallways".

Those empty narrow corridors exist to allow loading for the new play space that the player is entering. The play spaces on top of that are fairly small as well. You have a ton of dead space on this map, particularly in the middle. Nothing about this world design is because this is how Bungie wanted it to be, but rather how they had to design it based on the limitations of the hardware.

When I played through this planet when Destiny 2 released I didn't understand this convoluted design. I always wondered why Bungie didn't create a larger, more vast world without all of these weird hallways connecting these small play areas. Now I know why.

Well what's weird about that is that one of the games on my eternal backlog that i'm finishing off is Assassin's Creed Odyssey which has exactly what you described: A large, vast world, one with frankly insane draw distances and no loading screens other than fast travel and the occasional one or two when the story does it's thing. Now i will grant you that Odyssey's world probably isn't as densely packed as Destiny 2 (i've not actually played it) but the older consoles absolutely can do big huge open world games so that sounds more like a Bungie problem than a weak console problem. Hell, look at any of the Battle Royale games, they all feature big giant huge maps with none of the interconnected corridors or squeezing through cracks in a wall to disguise loading.

I'm sure developers will be able to create some very impressive things with the new tech but bearing in mind they're still going to have to cater to PC users (unless they skip that platform entirely) with their massive differences in possible specs i just don't see these revolutionary new console game experiences being made anytime soon. But happy to be proven wrong!
 

oracledragon

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,285
I'm happy if it stays like that for a while... im lucky enough to have an XSX, but it will be at least a year, probably more to upgrade from ps4 to ps5. If I can play God of War and other titles on it, im happy to do so. Although, I will forever be envious of Demons Souls players ;)
 

ryseing

Bought courtside tickets just to read a book.
Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,546
For lovers
My only conundrum is whether I should get Miles Morales (or other cross gen games) now and play it on my PS4, or if I should wait (probably up to a year) and play it when I get a PS5.

I know if I get the PS4 version it'll upgrade to PS5 for free, but I doubt I'm going to want to replay the whole thing on PS5 if I already beat it on PS4.

Worth noting- Miles Morales really pushes NG+ with a couple exclusive skills/suits for that mode. I'm planning on playing it through on PS4 and saving NG+ for PS5. Worth considering.
 

Rodney McKay

Member
Oct 26, 2017
12,205
Worth noting- Miles Morales really pushes NG+ with a couple exclusive skills/suits for that mode. I'm planning on playing it through on PS4 and saving NG+ for PS5. Worth considering.
Good point!

Miles Morales is also shorter than the first one, right? That's always a plus for me when replaying games.