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Ishmae1

Creative Director, Microsoft
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
539
Seattle, WA
I'm positive after playing the demo, but want to see how it develops towards release. I'm a big souls' fan, so I don't mind the difficulty or the brutal nature, but there just feels like layers of mechanics that are getting in the way of really enjoying the game. Now of course, not knowing the full upgrade paths of the shells and other items / weapons / stuff you get along the way, this is all subject to "based on what I've played so far" and that's it. It could all change.

As someone that primarily plays dex-based builds in these kinds of games, I find the lack of weapon choice somewhat irksome. That may just be for the demo, but having all these slow, heavy hits isn't really my cup of tea in terms of combat. Give me a spear or daggers or something a bit more hit-and-run and I'd be happy.

The tap, tap/hold for rolling takes some getting used to, but it's not that bad. The parry and then riposte tied to meter is excessive, though. I guess as others have said, they really wanted the emphasis on hardening... but that seems like it's specific more to the first shell, especially with some of the upgrades you can get for it.

The second shell is a lot more fun (for me) than the first, with more emphasis on dodging and much more actionable defense; the shell idea is pretty darn cool in itself, although I can already see that I'm going to ignore heavy / slow shells completely if given the chance.

I can see that they could push you towards actively switching shells in certain boss battles or monster encounters - hard to imagine you take the time to make that a feature of your game (inventory items to do just that) and then just completely ignore it. I don't know if I'm a fan of it or not, honestly. Sounds like an interesting idea that may get abandoned as the game develops; if the shells used different weapons however, that would be more interesting in the decision-making.

And as others have said, having (essentially) blighttown as your 2nd area in a demo is not that great. Poison in this game sucks, especially as you don't have an estus equivalent - at least I've not found one if you do. Having the mobs poison on every hit is just petty, and I wouldn't mind it so much if the poison built-up over multiple hits, but it's one hit and then... well if you can't survive 40 HP of poison, you're dead no matter what. I found myself running back towards spawn in these situations just so it would be easier to collect my corpse. Also, there's no telegraphing of poison - no green effect on swipes, for example, to let you know you're going to be poisoned.

Things I didn't care for -
  • Hit boxes on the large axe guys' poleaxe activates on the lower pole part of the weapon during attack windup, which comes forwards with no force, and does just as much damage as the blade does. boo.
  • The slow-mo on getting knocked out of your shell is cool the first time, then irritating. What's worse is that since you're knocked down, the stop-time does not do much if the monster was in an attack wind-up - they just hit you anyway before you can even dodge it. That just prolongs my death sequence and adds a layer of frustration. Either give me a moment so I can react, or just kill me.
  • Not enough information on parry state - I knew when it was empowered, but normal parry didn't seem to have a point. I'm not a fan of games that set you up for failure in terms of being able to use an ability that doesn't do anything productive unless it's in a certain state; you may as well just not let me use the button until it works.
  • Self-resetting bear traps - wow that's some low-tech high-tech right there.
  • Poison being front and center with no way to cure it in the 2nd area. If the 2nd shell had started with the poison absorb ability you can (eventually) unlock, then that would have been more interesting; telegraphing that certain shells have inherent advantages against certain creatures or areas is cool, because then I can self-select difficulty by how I want to play. As it is right now, not so much.
  • The loading screens diminish any unique identity from the game because they're so, so, so much like Dark Souls.
  • Lack of any backstab or critical hit beyond the empowered riposte thing. And the empowered riposte being something I can't do more than once every few combats.
For a small team, this is an impressive outing though, and I'm curious to see more from it! =)
 
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CenturionNami

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Nov 2, 2017
5,230
I really liked it. Atmosphere and level design are top notch, and that's all I really care about in a Soul's game to be honest.
 

Okabe

Is Sometimes A Good Bean
Member
Aug 24, 2018
19,893
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Okay so it was neat.

Decided to have little Jam with this dude.

Got constant 70FPS on a I5 9300h GTX 1050 4gb on high some ultra at 1080 p .

Not bad
 

Graven

Member
Oct 30, 2018
4,098
Also, i don't know how some people are saying the hardening mechanic is not useful, once i started using it better, i perfected the boss, it was vital, and it can be used at anytime which really make things really dynamic.

Felt good doing a leap attack and hardening mid air to absorve the boss' attack then punishing it after.

I look foward to the full game.
 

Morrigan

Spear of the Metal Church
Member
Oct 24, 2017
34,308
Poison being front and center with no way to cure it in the 2nd area. If the 2nd shell had started with the poison absorb ability you can (eventually) unlock, then that would have been more interesting; telegraphing that certain shells have inherent advantages against certain creatures or areas is cool, because then I can self-select difficulty by how I want to play. As it is right now, not so much.
You can use the tar mushroom for that. The first time you use it, it poisons you (lol). The 2nd time you use it, you build immunity, so going forward, using the tarshroom gives you temporary poison immunity (and removes the poison status if it's inflicted on you).

Generally agreed with the rest of your criticism though. This game needs a heavy polish phase before it's gonna be good...
 

Ishmae1

Creative Director, Microsoft
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
539
Seattle, WA
You can use the tar mushroom for that. The first time you use it, it poisons you (lol). The 2nd time you use it, you build immunity, so going forward, using the tarshroom gives you temporary poison immunity (and removes the poison status if it's inflicted on you).
Ha! lol I only used it once and thought "why would I eat this?". I figured I'd eventually get something to throw it on enemies. See that's a fun discovery system. There may be more things like that I didn't catch, certainly. =)
 

Owlet

Owl Enthusiast
Verified
May 30, 2018
1,930
London, UK
After playing through it, I didn't personally enjoy the combat. Some of the movement felt really "weightless" if that makes sense.

It looks beautiful, though.
 

Azai

Member
Jun 10, 2020
3,958
My first impression is that this beta is stupidly demanding. I have a gtx 1080 and the first area takes 80% of my cards power at 1080p ultra. At 1440p it goes up to 99%.

If it only uses 80% of your GPU and you did not cap framerate you might be CPU bound.

That said, you always want your GPU to be used between 95% and 99%.
Everything lower means either the game or the rest of your hardware is preventing your GPU to be fully utilized.
 

Kazuhira

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,165
I think it has potential,impressive considering that this is made by a team of 15 people.
Send them your feedback if you can.
 

Huxley

Member
Feb 20, 2019
127
You can use the tar mushroom for that. The first time you use it, it poisons you (lol). The 2nd time you use it, you build immunity, so going forward, using the tarshroom gives you temporary poison immunity (and removes the poison status if it's inflicted on you).

Generally agreed with the rest of your criticism though. This game needs a heavy polish phase before it's gonna be good...

I get that there is a mastery system but I think having the first use be completely negative teaches the wrong lesson. I ignored it after the first use, imagining it would later come into play as a reagent, or that being poisoned would be beneficial to dispel some other effect later.
 

Morrigan

Spear of the Metal Church
Member
Oct 24, 2017
34,308
I get that there is a mastery system but I think having the first use be completely negative teaches the wrong lesson. I ignored it after the first use, imagining it would later come into play as a reagent, or that being poisoned would be beneficial to dispel some other effect later.
Yeah, I'm not really fond of that system too. The first use is basically a waste, too, because you don't know when to use it. Like, say you're at full health. Do you use it, when possibly that will heal you and waste it? Say you're at low health. Do you use it, maybe it'll heal you (yay) or it will poison or damage you (welp)? If it's a combat buff (faster stamina regen, etc.), and you aren't near enemies at this point? Oops, wasted.

It's just frustrating and annoying.
 
Jan 2, 2018
10,699
Okay, I really like the look at atmosphere of this game. I also really like the heaviness of your attacks, they feel impactful. Sadly I'm not too fond on the harden mechanic. I get that this, among other things, set the game apart from other souls likes, but I think it would be more fun if rolling would be more useful in this game.
 

Ricker

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,982
Beautiful Province of Quebec.
Watched a few streamers play this and yeah,its a Souls game allright,one was stuck in the same area for over 1 hour trying to beat a Boss,that includes the deaths before even reaching the Boss...they liked it though.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,932
I played this beta again for several hours. I watched the video above, and started using items like crazy for the buffs.

It clicked.

You can take on an entire crowd of dudes if you use the Shell offensively during attacks - its basically like the bubble shield powerup in Sonic, but without hit stun and on a couple second recharge. Treat the Shell similar to the Ki-charge in Nioh, but for your defense rather than offense. The boss becomes trivial, you can spam heavy attacks and not have to worry about parrying. Being able to sit there all day with your Shell up is something I didn't know you could do, I thought it was like a parry. The reason why the parry is on a charge is because the Shell has a ton of utility compared to the parry and they wanted to point you in that direction (that, and an unlimited parry would make you unstoppable). They want you to work for it, even it it might just be busy work in the end.

I lied, the longsword's super is actually good, by virtue of working properly. The hammer and dagger weapon is bugged for me, the super won't work at all.
Longsword (works 100%) > Sickle/dagger (longer combos, but bug problems?)
Knight (more I-frames, longer Shell when upgraged) > Thief (can attack a bunch, immune to poison, fun bonus stuff)
Weapons being locked to 1 at a time is not great, they should change that.

Other:
Your Shells/dudes each have their own souls+upgrade pools, I think.
I think as you acquire more powerups via the npc, your stats also increase.
Your heavy attacks are actually OP when combined with the Shell, especially running heavy.
The potential cheese this game has could be interesting. If there's online PvP, it could also be totally awful with the amount of turtling going on.
Scythe hands monster gets eaten alive by the I-frame dodges the Knight can do.
The lore you unlock with new attributes is interesting, but very dramatic, flowery, and inconclusive a lot of the time. By bringing so attention to it compared to other souls games, its weirdness/aloofness sticks out a bit much for my taste.

Technical:
The game looks a lot like Dark Souls 3 on low...
Play at 120fps, it feels much better than 60fps.
Yeah, this game still eats your inputs at 120fps.
The game crashed on exit for me and hardlocked my PC twice out of task manager. Had to open a new desktop (windows key+CTRL+arrow keys) and kill the the process with command promt.
To recover: taskkill /f /im Dungeonhaven-Win64-Shipping.exe
 

Potterson

Member
Oct 28, 2017
6,408
I really can't enjoy this game because of the dodge system. You cannot dodge mid-attack (dodge-cancel, that's how it's called?). I felt so sluggish without the ability to do that.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,932
I really can't enjoy this game because of the dodge system. You cannot dodge mid-attack (dodge-cancel, that's how it's called?). I felt so sluggish without the ability to do that.
Try using the Shell instead of dodging when they're about interrupt. Your attack will go through and probably stun them, they'll bounce off of you, and then you can move away. You can hold the shell for as long as you want.
 

laxu

Member
Nov 26, 2017
2,782
Tried this again and got further but the game never feels like you are in control. It eats inputs, it doesn't let you cancel stuff with dodge properly. It feels like everything has tons of input lag to it and it's impossible to do anything without starting it seconds before committing. I don't think they should release this in September if the beta condition is in any way representative of the current state.
 

Batatina

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,263
Edinburgh, UK
Just tried to play the beta, and I think the game is too frustrating. If you're going to make the enemies hit this hard you need to make your gameplay responsive, and make your parries more forgivable. I'm dying over and over and not feeling like it's my fault, because I pressed the right button or because the enemy registered an attack before it actually hit me, or because a slow animation blocked me from doing the next thing. Parries in particular are very inconsistent and I think they made the window too small.

I think theres a lot of work they need to do to make the game feel good, or maybe just stop focusing on the difficulty. Apart from that I think the concept of Shells is interesting, and the environment looks good.

Also the familiarity mechanic is a bit senseless to me, because at the the merchant would tell us what the products do before we buy them.
 

Dust

C H A O S
Member
Oct 25, 2017
32,166
This is...weird.
Not bad, but weird. The less seasoned action game players will absolutely drop this early on, this feels less forgiving than any Souls both in terms of mechanics and healing.
 

Azai

Member
Jun 10, 2020
3,958
Never played a Souls-Like actually and always wanted to get into it. So bow trying the Beta.
 

Bearwolf

Member
Oct 27, 2017
477
Hearing about the health system turns me off from this. Will wait to see how this shapes up.
 

laxu

Member
Nov 26, 2017
2,782
This is...weird.
Not bad, but weird. The less seasoned action game players will absolutely drop this early on, this feels less forgiving than any Souls both in terms of mechanics and healing.

I agree. Healing being tied so heavily to parries feels weird. Parries in Souls games are an advanced technique that most players are not going to use all that much so making them integral in not getting killed is weird. I guess they didn't want to just straight up have estus but it's difficult to learn and experiment if you get pummeled in a few hits. Especially in what is supposedly an early area.

So far the level design has not done it for me. It looks great, but the routes are not interesting.
 

BayonettasBuddy

Lead Producer at Cold Symmetry
Verified
Oct 30, 2017
233
I agree. Healing being tied so heavily to parries feels weird. Parries in Souls games are an advanced technique that most players are not going to use all that much so making them integral in not getting killed is weird. I guess they didn't want to just straight up have estus but it's difficult to learn and experiment if you get pummeled in a few hits. Especially in what is supposedly an early area.

So far the level design has not done it for me. It looks great, but the routes are not interesting.

Parry windows are a bit more forgiving than souls/BB. If I am honest, the first set of enemies are kinda your main area's weaker does, but the guys in the crypt aren't really early game guys.

The slice of the game is combat focused, rather than starting you at a hub world with different areas to go and find.
 

laxu

Member
Nov 26, 2017
2,782
Parry windows are a bit more forgiving than souls/BB. If I am honest, the first set of enemies are kinda your main area's weaker does, but the guys in the crypt aren't really early game guys.

The slice of the game is combat focused, rather than starting you at a hub world with different areas to go and find.

I have found it difficult to hit the parries with any consistency and often have missed the riposte as well. Now I'm no parry king in Souls either but I can parry most DS3 knights and a lot of foes in Bloodborne with consistency. Dodging stuff also does not seem to work well just doing it on reaction but needs to be done way earlier. I am playing with a 2080 Ti and LG CX OLED TV so input lag from my hardware should be minimal.

I like that you can make your own attack timing rather than relying on what the game lets you use for combos but the unreliable inputs are really killing me. Literally. :D

PS. More HUD options for dealing with ultrawide or large TVs would be nice. Seeing when the harden meter is filled up is difficult on a 48" OLED at long desktop viewing distances. I already set the size to Large. Being able to put the HUD closer to the center would help a lot.
 

jviggy43

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
18,184
Just finished the beta. Enjoyed it enough that I'll probably pick it up at launch. Enemy AI is a bit easy? Its pretty simple to spam a couple attacks then just back up or shell tank a few hits. The end boss was pretty damn easy too. I ended up beating him on my second run, which i wasn't aware had no fog gate so I ended up fighting 3 enemies while fighting the boss at the same time. And honestly just backing up gave you so much space. That none of the enemies have a run ability really hurts their threat level. Its just too easy to break away, kite, and if all else fails shield.

Also is there anyway to change shells? I found the second one, died with it and couldnt figure out how to equip it back. Is there only going to be one weapon as well?

All in all I love the art direction and look of the enemies. The dude with the swords through him was bad ass.
 

laxu

Member
Nov 26, 2017
2,782
Also is there anyway to change shells? I found the second one, died with it and couldnt figure out how to equip it back. Is there only going to be one weapon as well?

Your other shell is lying in a one of the catacomb graves right where you find the other one. You can switch there. There is also a second weapon but I haven't figured out how to get it yet.
 

sredgrin

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
12,276
Liking this. That one "boss" fight they showed before was a weird and stupid way to advertise the game, but playing it in practice it feels a lot better than it looked.

Outside of maybe Salt and Sanctuary I think this is one of the few non-From Soulslike games to have an actual decent atmosphere / interesting art style.
 

Azai

Member
Jun 10, 2020
3,958
Do we know if they add some kind of gore later on?
The attacks look nice and heavy but the ragdolls just dont fit them as good as they could.
 

Carlius

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,000
Buenos Aires, Argentina
I really can't enjoy this game because of the dodge system. You cannot dodge mid-attack (dodge-cancel, that's how it's called?). I felt so sluggish without the ability to do that.
yes, this was my issue too. Feels too budgety, generic and sluggish. Makes you really appreciate from softs efforts into anmation and frames.