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Moon Knight |OT| Embrace the CHAOS
- Thread starter Helix
- Start date
- Spoiler Entertainment OT
Ok, really dumb shit here but this was driving me nuts when watching the episode, but I'm guessing it's just them merging two different shots together? (Ethan Hawke's finger "jumps" position)
No clue how to get MP4 embed to work properly, but should be watchable if you click it. direct link: https://i.imgur.com/QDEeh74.mp4
edit: this might work?
No clue how to get MP4 embed to work properly, but should be watchable if you click it. direct link: https://i.imgur.com/QDEeh74.mp4
edit: this might work?
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Loved the last episode. I really hope Layla becomes a big character in the MCU going forward cause especially after she got her powers, she was so super cool. I dig her so much.
I have no idea if she matters in the comics at all, but they should straight ignore that immediately and just push her to the moon regardless, I hope they realize what they have here.
I have no idea if she matters in the comics at all, but they should straight ignore that immediately and just push her to the moon regardless, I hope they realize what they have here.
I think them taking the opportunity to straight up make her an Egyptian superhero when they didn't have means they'll definitely have plans for her in the future
Glad she ended up being so cool by the end
Ok, really dumb shit here but this was driving me nuts when watching the episode, but I'm guessing it's just them merging two different shots together? (Ethan Hawke's finger "jumps" position)
No clue how to get MP4 embed to work properly, but should be watchable if you click it. direct link: https://i.imgur.com/QDEeh74.mp4
edit: this might work?
Kinda just looks like he's holding the glass really tightly and the condensation caused his finger to slip.
Pretty much hated the last episode but I kinda expected that. The direction and especially the editing was straight up atrocious in the first third before the episode descended into an entirely predictable and boring "now they punch a lot"-sequence. None of the Action in this show was ever especially noteworthy and this was exactly the same.
The "Are you an Egyptian super hero?" moment made me cringe into oblivion. Marvel just absolutely cannot help themselves from constantly including the laziest call outs to their performative inclusiveness. Might as well just make your extra go "Is this the inspiring diverse girl boss moment we included in this 6 episode show almost entirely revolving around men (and their insane abusive mothers)?" It's so lazy, so on the nose, so desperate.
And then there is the ending, a confusing and almost meaningless mess if you don't care about the comics and don't already know what's happening. Oh no! There is...a random third guy in there! One I have never heard of and who means absolutely nothing to me! How...exciting?
So, yeah, 40 minutes lacking any kind of character development/interactions or interesting topics of discussion, consisting exclusively of wrap-up for the paper thin plot and unnoteworthy action. I guess that's just kind of the way these MCU TV projects go.
Oh and I normally don't really bother questioning anything related to the plot in these movies and shows, but one thing seemed so weird that it actually bothered me: Why were Steven and Marc separate identities...in the afterlife? The show acts like they are simply part of your common "Trauma created a separate, second personality" trope...but then the show also acts like they are actually 2 different people by portraying them as 2 separate identities being judged in the afterlife?
The "Are you an Egyptian super hero?" moment made me cringe into oblivion. Marvel just absolutely cannot help themselves from constantly including the laziest call outs to their performative inclusiveness. Might as well just make your extra go "Is this the inspiring diverse girl boss moment we included in this 6 episode show almost entirely revolving around men (and their insane abusive mothers)?" It's so lazy, so on the nose, so desperate.
And then there is the ending, a confusing and almost meaningless mess if you don't care about the comics and don't already know what's happening. Oh no! There is...a random third guy in there! One I have never heard of and who means absolutely nothing to me! How...exciting?
So, yeah, 40 minutes lacking any kind of character development/interactions or interesting topics of discussion, consisting exclusively of wrap-up for the paper thin plot and unnoteworthy action. I guess that's just kind of the way these MCU TV projects go.
Oh and I normally don't really bother questioning anything related to the plot in these movies and shows, but one thing seemed so weird that it actually bothered me: Why were Steven and Marc separate identities...in the afterlife? The show acts like they are simply part of your common "Trauma created a separate, second personality" trope...but then the show also acts like they are actually 2 different people by portraying them as 2 separate identities being judged in the afterlife?
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No. More of this stuff. It's fun. Or did we hate the girlsquad teamup moment in Endgame too?
I think creating a brand new character for the MCU and making her an Egyptian superhero isn't performative at all. They went all the way with Layla and did something very cool with her that the MCU hasn't done before.
That wasn't at all done just for people who know the comics, it's not meaningless at all and it's a pretty clear hook for where the story goes next.
It was never Marc brutally killing people in those blackouts, it was Jake. It's a third personality that only Khonshu knows about, which has significant ramifications for what Marc thought was Khonshu releasing him from his service. Marc told Khonshu to kill Harrow/Ammet himself, and he still managed to get "Marc" to do it for him.
Sorry, are you Egyptian yourself? For some reason I keep reading these "so cringe" takes from people that (I assume) aren't Egyptian or Arabic, while actual Egyptians are like:
This isn't the first (nor second) take in this vein I've read on Era since the episode dropped and it's hard not to parse them as self-centered.
Layla does not exist in the comics. Marc is married to a women called Marlene Alraune in the comics, who is not a super hero.
Layla's super hero persona as the Scarlet Scarab is in the comics but its held by an Egyptian man called Abdul Faoul and then is passed to his son Mehemet Faoul. Neither are major characters, with only 7 total appearences between the two of them.
Moon Knight Star May Calamawy Talks Becoming Scarlet Scarab
The actress also tells TheWrap where she hopes Layla El-Faouly will fit in with the women of the MCU
www.thewrap.com
"And then now seeing the fan reactions, because it's all about the fans, and how people feel and especially how a lot of women have been responding to Layla having curly hair, and Scarlet Scarab having like, just curly hair out. There have been such wonderful posts with girls taking photos of themselves with their curls, writing comments like "I'm throwing out my hair straightener." And that, to me, is what makes me excited more than anything. To have an impact like that, especially in a society that we've grown up with, that has really told us what beautiful is and has almost forced us to want to, even if we have to erase who we are, just to fit into that. You know, it has that effect on us and to feel like we're breaking out of that and that a role like this can make women out there feel that way or young girls? That's like the superpower for me."
Given the fact that you're a man, unless you're an Egyptian, your comment is rather inappropriate. On second thoughts even if you're an Egyptian man, given your edit.
User Banned (1 Week): Dismissing Concerns of Representation over a Series of Posts
Moon Knight Star May Calamawy Talks Becoming Scarlet Scarab
The actress also tells TheWrap where she hopes Layla El-Faouly will fit in with the women of the MCU
"And then now seeing the fan reactions, because it's all about the fans, and how people feel and especially how a lot of women have been responding to Layla having curly hair, and Scarlet Scarab having like, just curly hair out. There have been such wonderful posts with girls taking photos of themselves with their curls, writing comments like "I'm throwing out my hair straightener." And that, to me, is what makes me excited more than anything. To have an impact like that, especially in a society that we've grown up with, that has really told us what beautiful is and has almost forced us to want to, even if we have to erase who we are, just to fit into that. You know, it has that effect on us and to feel like we're breaking out of that and that a role like this can make women out there feel that way or young girls? That's like the superpower for me."
Given the fact that you're a man, unless you're an Egyptian, your comment is rather inappropriate. On second thoughts even if you're an Egyptian man, given your edit.
So I know this is a really, really common reply to criticism and I want to reply to this:
Me criticizing a show for it's writing doesn't invalidate anyone feeling, well, validated by said writing. Nor is something that makes someone feel validated in their identity impossible to criticize. These responses consisting merely of quotes of people feeling validated by something, insinuating that being critical of the same content is somehow an attack on those people is incredibly reductive and hurtful to any kind of discussion that goes beyond "This is something that someone enjoyed. Therefore it is good".
Your reply to me only makes sense if I would have criticized the concept of diversity and inclusion, the fact that there is someone who isn't a white middle aged man in the show at all. Which isn't the case, of course. I'm criticizing the writing and the structure. That Marvel doesn't actually have an Egyptian woman star as the main character in the show about Egyptian super heroes, but that it's a show about a US Hollywood star starring opposite himself, with the Egyptian character also being allowed to be the super hero for one scene, for which the show then pauses, only to tell the audience: "Hey. This is an Egyptian super hero. Did you notice? Please clap." And OF COURSE everyone who is Egyptian claps. Because it's dope that there is any kind of representation. That doesn't make the scene impervious to criticism. Or even good.
I can like the little bit of representation happening and also dislike the way Disney capitalizes on it and fails to make it a natural part of their movies and shows. It's not immoral or inappropriate to voice that I disliked it and saying that it is puts an incredible moral obligation on liking (or at least not voicing displeasure for) very specific, often pretty badly written blockbuster entertainment tailor made to extract as much money as possible from as many people as possible by an unfathomably rich US company whose bosses are well known to actively support politicians trying to cut back on the human rights of and hurt non-white cis men as much as they can.
I'm also really, really not a fan of using excited fans as this buffer zone to try to invalidate opinions differing from them, no matter how common that is. I have a partner and friends of different backgrounds and identities and sexual orientations - I know that some of them love this exact kind of scene, some of them strongly dislike it and some are utterly indifferent to it. I could now pick the ones that share my opinion and use their identities to bolster my own opinions and make them impervious to differing opinions...but I don't think that is a very good idea.
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Speaking of representation, I love how you completely erase the main actor's heritage here. Also the main character of the show is not an Egyptian superhero.
Speaking of representation the director of the show is Egyptian, the main composer of the show it's Egyptian. Like you pick the show that while not perfect, still does a lot and ridiculed a moment of representation that it's validated by the Egyptian woman who played it, the Egyptian man who directed it and the Egyptian people who watch it, all coming from that background in the name of what?
Tell me you see how telling a bunch of Egyptian people including the actress and the director: "I know better than you how you should be represented" might be inappropriate.
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Yes. For the reasons described at length in the post above. Since we are apparently continuing to use other people's identities to validate your opinions: My problem with that scene isn't direction or acting or composing - it's writing. And from what I can gather, this episode's story was co-written by Jeremy Slater and Danielle Imam, both Americans. With the screenplay specifically being written by Jeremy Slater - whose previous credits include such gems as the Live Action Death Note movie and 2015's Fantastic Four.
Again- I think it REALLY sucks to try to get as many Egyptian names on a list as possible to try to give moral superiority to an opinion about a scene in a Disney production. But even if you wanted to do that's it doesn't even apply here. All you are doing is using the mere existence of an Egyptian composer or director or whoever else to somehow shield the writing of the American man whose screenwriting credits are shaky at best.
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No I don't, I never said I did and I spent a whole lot of time explainig how I am not doing nor trying to do that.
No, you're right. You did worse than that, you ridiculed it and then went on to diminish their "mere existence" as actors, directors, composers of this series.
People are allowed to have differing opinions.
Someone disliking something doesn't diminish it for those that like it.
It's ok to dislike it. It's another thing to call it cringe and performative inclusiveness when you're not part of any of the "included" categories.
How ‘Moon Knight’ Harnessed the Power of Egypt’s Top Creatives — and Even Flew Over a Taxi Driver — to Push for Authenticity and “Avoid the Orientalist Look”
Director and executive producer Mohamed Diab says this was key to his mission and saw him hire top Egyptian composer Hesham Nazih, editor Ahmed Hafez and ensure that 90 percent of the Egyptian roles went to fellow countrymen.
www.hollywoodreporter.com
I mean, I also found it cringy and forced. Yet at the same time I'm happy for those that felt represented by it and liked it.
And yes, I felt the same way about the "girl power" moment in Endgame. It was a bunch of side characters that have had zero focus plus the one girl that had their own film (Captain Marvel). It was forced. Have your girl power moment by actually focusing on female heroes and giving them movies.
I...I don't even know what this means. Are you saying that the term "mere existence" is somehow derogatory to the people described? That me disagreeing with you that the existence of an Egyptian composer, actor and director somehow shields an American screenwriter from criticism for their writing is somehow diminishing the existence of those actors, directors and composers? Surely you realize that doesn't make much sense.
I feel like you are trying REALLY hard fabricate malicious intent where there is none. Not really something I can do much about, so I'll instead just go to bed and hope that you have a nice day or evening and don't feel to badly impacted by what I wrote.
A Scarlet Scarab show with Moon Knight/Jake Lockley as the main antagonist would be pretty dang awesome.
I for one am delighted to have a hero that's a latino dude like me, and I have the feeling Disney won't just casually mention he moves drugs and steals cars this time.
That would actually be a cool setup, her trying to save Marc/Steven from themselves, not realizing Jake is a part of them due to the tactical outfit being so different
On the other side of the coin, my wife and her entire Lebanese family (and the internet?) is still trying to figure out what Sam actually said when speaking Arabic in the first episode of FatWS. I am assured that whatever this is, it is not Arabic:
The Direct has a couple of promo stills for Jake from the stinger:
There are more pics in the link from various moments from the show:
thedirect.com
I love how different and focused Oscar carries himself as Jake. There's a certain calmness and composure from his expression, and the clear look at his face from the stinger itself had this contained mania in the eyes. This differentiates him from Marc enough in a way that's not just "more violent/bloody".
There are more pics in the link from various moments from the show:
New Moon Knight Photos Reveal Unseen Looks at Jake Lockley
A new batch of official stills from Moon Knight featured a fresh look at Oscar Isaac's Jake Lockley.
thedirect.com
I love how different and focused Oscar carries himself as Jake. There's a certain calmness and composure from his expression, and the clear look at his face from the stinger itself had this contained mania in the eyes. This differentiates him from Marc enough in a way that's not just "more violent/bloody".
Lovely interview with May Calamawy about what it means to become the first Egyptian superhero in the big screen and what she expects Scarlet Scarab could go next:
www.inverse.com
'Moon Knight's new Scarlet Scarab reveals her dream Marvel team-up
May Calamawy plays Layla El-Faouly in 'Moon Knight,' and in the show’s finale, she becomes Scarlet Scarab, the first Egyptian superhero in the Marvel Cinematic Universe.
You know why that happened? Because you somehow used one perhaps clunky line to color entire effort as "performative inclusiveness." It's laughable that you went for the "I'm only criticizing the writing, can't I be negative about anything?" defense when the thrust of your initial statement was super dismissive towards the work of people involved and the audience it affected. Be more conscious about how you come across to people. Perhaps if you'd toned down that egocentric, internet-style snarky cynicism a bit, these whole conversation would have went differently.
But you want to talk about the writing? Let's talk about it then. Yes, that line somewhat sticks out, but why shouldn't it be? It's a straightforward promise that yes she's Egyptian, yes she's a superhero and yes she's not going anywhere. Why shouldn't it be an obvious clap moment? Why shouldn't they take pride in that? It is a moment of triumph and it should be loud and proud.
I've been seeing sentiments that these things need to be natural or more subtle or something. As if the mere instance of diversity shouldn't be highlighted, as if people should be embarrassed of it, and I'm so over that. I remember someone in a Ms. Marvel thread going into this weird condemnation just because the trailer dared to mention that she's "brown," and it just felt really condescending and missing the point to me.
Thank you for taking the time to type all of that out. It's not an opinion I share, but it's one I understand and respect.
I think the difference in opinions possibly comes ultimately from a different approach to media. You are describing the scene not as a part of the rest of the show but as a cultural signifier. When I am writing that I thought the scene was cringy and bad I was simply talking about how well the scene fit into the fight, how believable the dialogue was and overall how it fit into the tone of the show for me.
What you are focusing on in your post is what it wanted to do and what it means to some people completely outside of how it relates to the motivations of the characters or how it fit into the scene. One example to make clear what I'm talking about: The thing that makes me cringe so much about scenes like this or the Wonder Woman Bank Robber scene in Justice League is that these characters devolve, before my eyes, from actual, existing characters with thoughts and feelings to audience stand-ins. That girl standing there, smiling and asking that question doesn't come off as natural or believable whatsoever to me after she just barely escaped death, with her family still lying in the wrecked car. That's what I mean when I'm staying that they seem to pause the show for a quick PSA. It's not actually about the representation, it's about telling the audience that hey, btw, this is that moment of representation you like! Isn't it great? Anyway, back to the story now that happens completely independently from that. That's why it's so lazy, so desperate for applause.
To me, it would be akin to a movie like Minari pausing for a few seconds for an extra to look at Steven Yeun and go "Wow. You really a a diverse family from Korea living in the US." And then Yeun looks at her back and goes "Yes. We are." And they smile at each other....and then the movie continues.
That's what I think lies at the core of our disagreement here. If a (imo) badly written scene is actually bad if it also functions as a very open moment of representation - and if that representation should protect it from criticism or ridicule.
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I dont really understand the mental institution environment
It's the afterlife aboard Taweret's ship
But it's also Marc's mind sorting its shit out
But it's also some illusion by Arthur Harrow
But then even after returning to life, sorting his shit out and defeating Harrow, Marc returns to the same asylum to catch Harrow in the act with his bleeding feet
And then he wakes up from the asylum in his own bed
I have no idea what's going on
It's the afterlife aboard Taweret's ship
But it's also Marc's mind sorting its shit out
But it's also some illusion by Arthur Harrow
But then even after returning to life, sorting his shit out and defeating Harrow, Marc returns to the same asylum to catch Harrow in the act with his bleeding feet
And then he wakes up from the asylum in his own bed
I have no idea what's going on
i have one episode to go and honestly this show has been a major drag. i dont get the praise im seeing for the characters, especially marc and steven.
khonshu sounds like a mafia goof sometimes. the DID stuff doesnt seem well done at all but im no expert so that could be me reading it wrong. outside of the 5th episode so far, everything seems like a bad joke.
it honestly feels like a sony superhero show. was really looking forward to this, but ive been hugely disappointed.
this is the first MCU product that i have not found enjoyable. i even liked eternals for what it was.
khonshu sounds like a mafia goof sometimes. the DID stuff doesnt seem well done at all but im no expert so that could be me reading it wrong. outside of the 5th episode so far, everything seems like a bad joke.
it honestly feels like a sony superhero show. was really looking forward to this, but ive been hugely disappointed.
this is the first MCU product that i have not found enjoyable. i even liked eternals for what it was.
Jesus Christ.
Some takes that use dialogue lifted straight out of the alt-right playbook have snuck into both the Moon Knight and Doctor Strange threads over the past couple days.
Some of y'all are truly so laser focused on seeing everyone who doesn't share your opinion on something us dumb as Marvel TV shows as dog whistling secret Alt-right Nazis that it's getting utterly impossible to have any take here that goes beyond your own perspectives or thoughts. Try to actually realize that there are people behind these posts who are doing things in real life, meeting people, spending money or work hours or marching with friends and family for equality and diversity...and then realize that you call them out for" willfully lifting from the alt-right-playbook" because they thought a scene in a Marvel show written by the screenwriter of Fant4stic was a bit shit.
Stop propping the multi billion media empire of republicans using the money they make to discriminate and regress human rights as some kind of signifier of a person's politics or hidden agendas based purely on their taste for them. It's utterly ridicolous that this thread descended into this and that I am being brought even close to any kind of relation to actual Nazis because of such an incredibly basic piece of criticism. Disney isn't your friend. They perform inclusiveness to make use of the zeitgeist and as much money as possible. Criticising their efforts isn't close or akin or the same as criticizing the concept of inclusiveness or the people who are happy to see themselves represented.
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I finished it this weekend, i didn't like it, i understand that they don't want to take themselves too serious, but there's too much sillyness for me to cope with. The fifth episode was mostly fine, the others were very boring. And while i understand that this is just a series, the special effects looked cheap. There's a lot of room for improvement so i'll give the next season another chance.
My interpretation was "real" Harrow had nothing to do with the mental institution. Marc/Steven died and went to the afterlife, the institution was a representation of them needing to balance their hearts to get into the field of reeds.
Or alternatively, Marc/Steven imagined the whole events of the show and is in a mental institution and Harrow really is their doctor trying to help them. But at the end they reject that idea and return to the "real world" of Moon Knight and Konshu, so it's ultimately besides the point, because "reality is all imagination".
well that's kind of my point. if option one is true, then how/why did marc return to the institution after reviving and departing from the afterlife, having already balanced his and steven's hearts?
and with his hearts already sorted and harrow already defeated in "real life," why/how did he return there in order to "catch" harrow in the act with his feet?
option 2 is honestly sounding more logical to me at this point because if dude is just totally off the rails in fantasyland then that explains why nothing adds up
the institution could believably follow his childhood of abuse and mental illness, and the Steven Grant adventure movies do seem to exist both in the childhood memories and the asylum
Unreliable narrator.
However, I think the stinger makes it quite clear what is reality and what isn't…. Because if it wasn't true then we don't have anything to add to the MCU lol
You referred to a scene of a child being happy that they saw a superhero who looked like them as "performative inclusiveness."
I did not reply the way I did because you thought the scene was written poorly. I replied the way I did because you used a phrase that is almost exclusively used in alt-right circles, just as I took issue with the poster in the Doctor Strange thread who referred to those debating whether or not it was sexist as "SJWs."
Words matter. I do not think you're a damn Nazi. But you came into the thread to call that scene "cringe" and then doubled down with "performative inclusiveness." You chose your words very poorly.
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They all are. But look, when all latino superheroes before used to have the power of tacos and sombreros or were a stereotypical luchador, a dual personality violent vigilante is not too bad in comparison.
Here's hoping Robbie is next, spawn from hell is badass too.
Blue Beetle is also coming, so I'm eating good
I think it is absolutely great to do corny lines like "Yea I'm an Egyptian superhero" because creating media that specifically points it out is a beginning step into making inclusion more acceptable and therefore more likely to be used in Western media. It feels good to see empathy in this aspect becoming more widely used.
To critique the writing in this way isn't wrong on a technical level per se however it's inappropriate because it completely disregards the current state of representation in media. When representation equity is the norm then maybe it will be appropriate to critique all writing on the same level.
There is a lot of complexity to linguistics and how that affects perception so I think drawing focus to inclusion is a great first step in changing cultural perception. Like we got 5 episodes of a badass woman who for all we know could be an American, and then at the end you learn she is actually Egyptian. Oh she's been a badass Egyptian woman the whole time. It's providing an opportunity for you to think about your assumptions.
To critique the writing in this way isn't wrong on a technical level per se however it's inappropriate because it completely disregards the current state of representation in media. When representation equity is the norm then maybe it will be appropriate to critique all writing on the same level.
There is a lot of complexity to linguistics and how that affects perception so I think drawing focus to inclusion is a great first step in changing cultural perception. Like we got 5 episodes of a badass woman who for all we know could be an American, and then at the end you learn she is actually Egyptian. Oh she's been a badass Egyptian woman the whole time. It's providing an opportunity for you to think about your assumptions.
finally finished it.
what a…mess. the three leads were pretty great but everything else was just losing me as it went on. it was fun i guess
not even sure where i would rank this if the marvel shows.
this is where i'm at
what a…mess. the three leads were pretty great but everything else was just losing me as it went on. it was fun i guess
not even sure where i would rank this if the marvel shows.
this is where i'm at
The bleeding feet thing was a flashback of Jake who was probably still sorting his shit out in the afterlife. Something we didn't see before. It's the scene directly after the bit with the glass I think?
The mental institution was a construct thier mind created to sort out their shit. Hence them both escaping to it when shit got tough.
You keep speaking over Egyptian fans and creators on the Egyptian representation in Moon Knight being "the laziest call outs to their performative inclusiveness" and "so lazy, so on the nose, so desperate". Dismissing and reducing positive Egyptian reception to "excited fans". Claiming that when "Disney says please clap", then "OF COURSE everyone who is Egyptian claps", as if every Egyptian was a representation-starved simpleton that doesn't know any better (which is particularly funny in the context of Rami Ismail of all people).
Are you honestly so utterly self-unaware that you can read what you're posting and not realize how incredibly dismissive and offensive you're being? All your claims otherwise, what's the functional difference between what you're doing here, and white chuds deriding Black Panther for "appealing to black people"? Being offended that people compare your posts to alt-right rethoric has no bite if you're literally unable to point out what the difference is.
Extra points for:
- Not only dismissing the Egyptian creators involved as irrelevant, but claiming that even bringing them up "sucks" and is done for illegitimate "moral superiority".
- "I'm not Egyptian but I have Egyptian frie-" sorry, not even that; "I have LGBT and non-white friends".
- Trying to derail the conversation from Moon Knight's Egyptian creators to the politics of Disney executive overlords that are like at least three degrees removed from the former and anyhing discussed here.
- Enumerating all the ways you're (allegedly) advancing the progressive cause IRL, as if that somehow counterbalances and excuses posting all that dismissive stuff here.
Oh, good, another non-Egyptian male voice joining the conversation on why Egyptian female creators' Egyptian women inclusiveness is cringe and forced. So truly #blessed we are.
Thank God I'm not alone in seeing this. I started to think I'm going crazy and seeing things. I guess that's how it is to be gaslighted.