It is as long as you want it. The main story can be cleared relatively quickly
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Modern video games are déclassé, low brow entertainment that prize wish fulfillment over saying anything important about humanity and that's fine
- Thread starter Space Lion
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Absoludacrous didn't even mention SH2 in their post. But neither was it a direct comparison to any of your examples. If that's all you can say about Celeste than it seems you didn't understand it fully.
If having a lower opinion allows you to enjoy games more, then fine. But it ironically seems you're doing exactly what you don't want games to do then.
Bit of a self fulfilling prophecy - if you're not looking for it, you're more than likely going to miss it or think that games don't have it when they do if you look just a little bit closer.
It's fine to prefer gameplay over other elements but to say that most games aren't capable of it (and using Celeste as an example) is silly.
No, I just mean the experience in general. It was unforgettable and emotional, for a number of reasons.
You're right OP, I only break out my monocle and top hat when it's time to play some Silent Hill 2, the classiest of video games.
If you like strategy there's Crusader Kings III and XCOM 2.
After reading the replies I have no idea what games the OP expects. It's like a muddled request for something specific that only appeases them mixed with a heavy dose of self admitted bias (ie they don't look for the depth so when it presents itself it is ignored).
lol yea first red flag. But op isn't even good at being pretentious, all their rebuttals are just "yea but it's not as deep as this game I'm nostalgic for"
I've lost interest in games with something to say. I just want to level up and get new shiny guns and to me that is ok. It's time commitment games with out it really being anything I got to think or feel about.
Very strange to judge the artistic quality of a medium by it's most popular works, you wouldn't do that for any other medium. In film, for instance, "high brow cinema" like Parasite gets a way smaller audience than the average Marvel movie. Not that there isn't a place for both of course.
It's still a growing artform for sure, but dive deeper into indie and non-AAA titles before making your mind up so hard, they might surprise you. You're missing out on beautiful little gems like this:
It's still a growing artform for sure, but dive deeper into indie and non-AAA titles before making your mind up so hard, they might surprise you. You're missing out on beautiful little gems like this:
It seems like the thread title needs 'AAA' in it as that's what the OP is talking about. There's a discussion to be had about some of the generalisations about that sector but broad statements about the entire industry and the output of hundreds of small studios just don't work.
OP
OP
I've started to see them as similar. There's nothing wrong with it. Back when I was young I really put a lot of my self esteem on video games. I thought video games were a medium of the future so when people like Ebert or Tarantino would critique video games I would get personally attacked. But now in my older age I've let go of my notions about games and it's really freeing.
It feels like you changed more than anything OP, and that's okay too.
Games are more diverse than ever, and it's easier than ever to go for the 'low brow trash' and enjoy many new releases. There are also games with things to say, and say them well (Disco Elysium and Spiritfarer come to mind as of recent). I think it's a bit disengenuous to say the medium as a whole is primarily represented by one or the other.
You could just as easily direct your main criticisms toward popular entertainment in general. Hollywood, TV, etc. The broader the appeal, the more 'dumbed down' it is. All these mergers and acquisitions in media are happening in the name of profit, not the search for some great art.
Games are more diverse than ever, and it's easier than ever to go for the 'low brow trash' and enjoy many new releases. There are also games with things to say, and say them well (Disco Elysium and Spiritfarer come to mind as of recent). I think it's a bit disengenuous to say the medium as a whole is primarily represented by one or the other.
You could just as easily direct your main criticisms toward popular entertainment in general. Hollywood, TV, etc. The broader the appeal, the more 'dumbed down' it is. All these mergers and acquisitions in media are happening in the name of profit, not the search for some great art.
Imagine playing Celeste, a game about (spoilers for Celeste I highly recommend you play it)
and coming away with it was a "good platformer" and arguing it has nothing to say.
a transgender woman's attempt to confront her personal anxieties and depression, learning to accept the uncomfortable parts of who she is and love herself
This is true in the AAA space, but - as others have pointed - your argument doesn't really hold up when you comets to indies. You should really play Disco Elysium. It's a thematically deep, very well-written RPG. Exactly the kind of game you seem to be looking for.
Kentucky Route Zero and Pathologic 2, while not really RPGs, also seem right up your alley. You should also explore visual novels and "walking simulators", as they often have some of the best writing gaming has to offer (not coincidentally, they are also cheaper to make).
Kentucky Route Zero and Pathologic 2, while not really RPGs, also seem right up your alley. You should also explore visual novels and "walking simulators", as they often have some of the best writing gaming has to offer (not coincidentally, they are also cheaper to make).
OP
OP
It's mostly because I was starved for the genres of my youth. But I've started to no longer care.
Gotta broaden your search OP. The medium reaches so many more people now so the best selling games won't be the ones you are looking for just like big blockbuster movies like marvel films aren't the place to go to see what the filmmaking medium is capable of
Idk i think when OP dropped the phrase "i'd rather read Shakespeare than continue to wait for deep Games like Tactics Ogre and Front Mission" that was pretty high on the pretentious scale.
So you've given up looking for good story, but when you encounter it it doesn't count because you weren't looking for it initially?
This sounds like a "you" problem.
Celeste is absolutely amazing and one of the best games of the generation, but the story is not the main focus. The platforming is absolutely the meat of the game. I like the story and its themes, but it's definitely not as narratively deep or complex as the games OP mentioned.
OP
OP
Is it another wish fulfillment game? That's one aspect people keep ignoring. Modern games are all about wish fulfillment. Animal Crossing for example has gone from a game about making connections with neighbors to some island resort where you control every aspect of every party of the island, and that's one example. Modern wrpgs are highly influenced by the Mass Effect model of who you want to fuck where gamers debate which character they want to fuck the most. Even Fallout, famous for its critique on ideology while showing a hope in a nuclear destroyed future has turned into wish fulfillment (see: Fallout 4) where you're all powerful.
Video games increasingly want to coddle the player so they can feel they're all powerful gods. Wish fulfillment simulators.
Does Disco Elysium tap into that mindset?
Its not as complex, but id argue its deeper. No game in the OP manages to marry gameplay and story themes as well, many of them have them at odds with each other.
OP
OP
People are giving you tons of examples of games not doing that, but you keep cherry picking.
OP is fully entitled to their opinion but the whole premise & stance of this thread is peak Era.
Absolutely not. You start the game as a loser and finish it - if things go well - as a slightly better loser. The game allows you to fail (and adapts to your failure) in a way not many games do. I felt like absolute shit in a few moments I fucked up, but I still had to keep going despite my failure - even if in less than ideal circumstances.
Popping back in to point this gem out:
That Dragon, Cancer
I guess you've at least spurred discussion OP, but I still hold that that take is objectively, verifiably bad.
That Dragon, Cancer
I guess you've at least spurred discussion OP, but I still hold that that take is objectively, verifiably bad.
OP
OP
Sounds fucking rad. I'll check it out once I get a new computer.
Well then I'm glad we've cherry picked that one game out of the half dozen list in that particular post to base this entire line of conversation around. Nevermind that it was meant to counter the OPs insistence that games are "dumb" now, not stand toe-to-toe with Planescape Torment like the OP seems to think.
I'll be more careful in my game lists in the future, and make sure each one contains at least one Robert Frost joke so it's seen as deep and complex as Grim Fandango.
That has more to do with accessibility.
Your point towards Animal Crossing is weird, as what New Horizons is actually about is giving the players the ability to craft and make their island their own. The actual moment to moment gameplay hasn't actually changed all that much.
If you think that there's a fundamental difference in "wish fulfillment" between old and new Animal Crossing, I don't know what to tell you. The only explanation I can think of is that games haven't changed; you have.
While I was nodding along while reading, in the end I don't really quite agree. Like sure, there's a lot of games without any deeper meanings or questions. Which is indeed fine. But that's no different to other mediums. Just because you're reading, doesn't mean you're reading something thoughtful or meaningful. Working in a library has really showed me this, considering the books that seem to be moving constantly. Great majority of those books won't end up elevating great minds. And while there's more pure bubblegum entertainment on the market than ever before, don't let those drown out the gems you are after. Since those are there too and there's more than ever before.
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DE is most similar to Planescape Torment with an emphasis on political ideologies.
I agree with a lot of what the OP says actually. Back then you could have a game be about something and people either ignored it, embraced it, or just had their own take on it. Nowadays the biggest games are so scared of being about anything. Huge games about serious stuff like war and violence make sure to mention that they are not being political.
Of course, there's still plenty of games about stuff, and even the ones that say they aren't about anything are still about stuff(just unintentionally). But it's so scarce to have a team or creator for a big game be like, "I'm making this game about this topic." I guess we have Kojima but back in the day we had Will Wright, Warren Spector, and probably a bunch more I can't name. The world didn't end. People just played the game if they liked it.
Of course, there's still plenty of games about stuff, and even the ones that say they aren't about anything are still about stuff(just unintentionally). But it's so scarce to have a team or creator for a big game be like, "I'm making this game about this topic." I guess we have Kojima but back in the day we had Will Wright, Warren Spector, and probably a bunch more I can't name. The world didn't end. People just played the game if they liked it.
It's amazing how much some game likers only care about aesthetics.
This "wish fulfillment" or "power fantasy" paradigm people want to throw on games is stunting the analysis of games and has been for over a decade. Just because a game looks a certain way doesn't mean that's all it's about. Also, try bumping up that difficulty if you're finding it too easy.
This "wish fulfillment" or "power fantasy" paradigm people want to throw on games is stunting the analysis of games and has been for over a decade. Just because a game looks a certain way doesn't mean that's all it's about. Also, try bumping up that difficulty if you're finding it too easy.
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