This sounds like old man yelling at clouds tbh. Looking to AAA game to fulfil your void is pointless. I haven't played it but disco elysium for example has been praised for it's writing and these.
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Modern video games are déclassé, low brow entertainment that prize wish fulfillment over saying anything important about humanity and that's fine
- Thread starter Space Lion
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Seems a bit rough to choose niche, thoughtful stuff from 20 years ago, when the leading franchises then include some of the same AAA action adventure ones that are still around today and just as focused on mainstream entertainment as they ever were, in addition to more niche, thoughtful stuff.
Thoughtful RPGs and horror games and explorations of the human condition existed then and exist now. The main difference is that we don't really have mid-budget games getting mainstream retail releases in the same way. You need to look throughout the indies that make up 95% of the hundreds of titles being released and you'll find whatever you're looking for.
Thoughtful RPGs and horror games and explorations of the human condition existed then and exist now. The main difference is that we don't really have mid-budget games getting mainstream retail releases in the same way. You need to look throughout the indies that make up 95% of the hundreds of titles being released and you'll find whatever you're looking for.
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Heck, one of the most interesting games of the past decade was one that really should be expanded upon and probably even played by anyone interested in entering humanist fields:
Imagine more games in this style, "empathy simulators" I believe they're called. That'd be amazing.
Imagine more games in this style, "empathy simulators" I believe they're called. That'd be amazing.
Aside from a smattering of games each gen that were very much in the minority, there has never been an era of gaming where games en masse were trying to say something important about humanity. If anything, the rise of indies this gen and last gen have given birth to more of this type of game, not fewer.
The only definition of art I subscribe to is that art is. When television and film burst onto the scene we didn't declare them mediums of true art, we talked down to them until the people who went off about it died of old age. Gaming is a relatively new medium that we're still figuring out in a way that a century of film studies don't have to deal with anymore, understanding the exploration of a medium that is not observed but experienced through the interaction of the user.
You're getting some blowback but honestly I think the budgetary concerns of modern development are more exemplified in an age where they perhaps weren't in the past. There's an argument to be made as to whether the "AA" games of yesteryear were boxed out by ballooning costs and an audience that wasn't growing or aren't being made as a result of parent companies only seeking the most profitable ventures, but we're not getting those games from them anymore either way. The Last Of Us II and God of War are definitely two massive, AAA titles with an emphasis on narrative, but those are also two whole games financed by a first party console manufacturer, and the advancement of Games as Narrative is only one part of the advancement of the medium as a whole.
I do not think the issue is that story focused games are not being made at all, I think the issue is that they are being made seemingly exclusively by small scale indie studios and the big boys are giving us wish fulfillment power fantasies where we get to be a special shootboi.
You're getting some blowback but honestly I think the budgetary concerns of modern development are more exemplified in an age where they perhaps weren't in the past. There's an argument to be made as to whether the "AA" games of yesteryear were boxed out by ballooning costs and an audience that wasn't growing or aren't being made as a result of parent companies only seeking the most profitable ventures, but we're not getting those games from them anymore either way. The Last Of Us II and God of War are definitely two massive, AAA titles with an emphasis on narrative, but those are also two whole games financed by a first party console manufacturer, and the advancement of Games as Narrative is only one part of the advancement of the medium as a whole.
I do not think the issue is that story focused games are not being made at all, I think the issue is that they are being made seemingly exclusively by small scale indie studios and the big boys are giving us wish fulfillment power fantasies where we get to be a special shootboi.
.My contribution:
Opinions are fine but that's a trash opinion. There are too many arguments refuting this point so I'll leave it to everyone else to point them out.
Celeste uses gameplay as metaphor better than Silent Hill 2. It contextualizes the challenge and rhythm of the "precision platformer" as an extension of its narrative about overcoming and acceptance. Silent Hill 2 is excellent story-wise, but that story, writing, cutscenes, enemy design are at odds with the gameplay itself.
Also "high class game experience"? What kind of arbitrary nonsense is that?
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Your OP was somewhat well-balanced and it did seem you just didn't play as many modern games. But this is pretty yikes to throw Celeste's progressive messaging out because it's not 'high class' like SH2.
OP
OP
Please point to me deep modern rpgs with good writing and deep gameplay. As said in the OP, I hear good things about Disco Elysium. Japanese and strategy rpgs however seem to have go down a downward spiral. Have any suggestions?
Not really sure how this could be true given that there are more and more games being made per year as the expansion of indie space continues, and thus story- and theme-driven games are only proliferating in number. Then there's the question of how your analysis of game budget doesn't apply just as well to big-budget movies (which similarly generally "say nothing") and whether you're wrongly comparing AAA games, with their constraints to story and themes, with film as a medium writ large. Then there are the notable counterexamples in even the AAA space in just the last year which have already been pointed out. Then there's the fact that on a technical level games are only getting better suited to tell stories and depict themes (how well did most retro 1990s games depict stories and themes? Was there voice acting? drawn out cut scenes expounding on philosophy or life?).
in sum I just really don't see how one could come to the conclusion you have
in sum I just really don't see how one could come to the conclusion you have
Well Silent Hill 2 was great so OP got one thing right at least.
Gaming has never been more thoughtful and interesting as it is right now, using game mechanics to fit in with themes and ideas, you just have to look outside of the big AAA titles. Some of the titles you dismiss do it just as well (and maybe sometimes better) as games like SH2 did.
Gaming has never been more thoughtful and interesting as it is right now, using game mechanics to fit in with themes and ideas, you just have to look outside of the big AAA titles. Some of the titles you dismiss do it just as well (and maybe sometimes better) as games like SH2 did.
This post basically betrays the whole point of your message. If you don't think Celeste or Undertale have something important to say then I think you really don't understand the whole "games as art" topic like you think you do.
OP
OP
Well, they cited Celeste as on par with Silent Hill 2 and Planescape. It's a good platformer and that's the biggest compliment I can give it. I have played many modern games and I'd rather consider games at a lower opinion. It allows me to enjoy them more.
I'm assuming you're completely ignoring indies
Also I don't think any of those were AAA titles at the time
Also I don't think any of those were AAA titles at the time
I mean gaming has a large variety of games, narratives and perspectives. Your blanket statement op doesn't really have much merit tbh.
Artistic expression in video games, be it the actual titles or the literary scholarship around them, is quite healthy right now and the lack is on you if you don't know where to look. And as good as titles like Silent Hill 2 and Planescape Torment are, these games tell stories from a "human condition", lenses-based perspective. There are games that are going beyond that and into socially-specific identity-based frameworks.
OP
OP
Undertale definitely has something to say and it's one of the few exceptions. But just because it has something to say doesn't make it good. I think it's a pretty bad game, personally, despite respecting its scope and vision.
If all you got out of Celeste is that it was a "good platformer" I'm very concerned what you think you got out of Silent Hill 2 and some of the other games you mentioned.
This doesn't feel like it's based on a thorough or systematic accounting of anything.
Was Alpha Centauri the norm for games in terms of high browness? Of course not.
Was Alpha Centauri the norm for games in terms of high browness? Of course not.
OP
OP
Breath of the Wild is great but it also has the modern game problem of being simply too fucking long.
So you're just going into modern games with a bias thought process.
The games aren't the issue here.
Breath of the wild doesn't exactly have the writing and "deeper" meaning you are looking for though
OP
OP
It's not that it has nothing to say but it's that good in terms of story. Honestly, the story was pretty peripheral for me. I played it for the great platforming. The storytelling was okay and a side feature for me than the main course.
Maybe the games you're looking for aren't RPGs? But I heard great things of Wasteland 3.
For other genres, last year we had 13 Sentinels, Hades, Spiritfarer, TLOU II, Ori, Half-Life Alyx, Tell Me Why, If Found... all good stories that wouldn't work in any other media.
And you don't even need good stories to have a "deep" game. Animal Crossing is a gem the way it is, it had a huge impact in a pandemic.
BotW is literally as long as you want it to be. That's it's thing.
And I can only assume you played Celeste with your eyes closed.
OP, based on what you wrote, I think you'd like Disco Elysium, Kentucky Route Zero, Outer Wilds, Pathalogic 2 and that sort of stuff.
Also, I think game design is an art. Super Mario Bros can be artistic in it's game design in a way that's unique to the game medium. If the goal is enjoyment, challenge, satisfaction, then there's artifice in achieving those ends through game design.
Also, I think game design is an art. Super Mario Bros can be artistic in it's game design in a way that's unique to the game medium. If the goal is enjoyment, challenge, satisfaction, then there's artifice in achieving those ends through game design.
Okay but that's not a critique about depth or whatever that's just you saying there was too much to do.
Writing that post I did I I was under the impression this was a thread about how artistic expression has been boxed out by overwrought budgets, not just that games were deeper back in the day.
Grim Fandango and Planescape were not AAA games of their time? Plenty to critique here, but that counter-argument isn't true, folks.
OP, there was plenty of voice, mocap, and live-action in games before Alpha Centauri. Those were not barriers to having "something to say", then or now. I really liked Alpha Centauri, so that's a callout I appreciate.
OP, there was plenty of voice, mocap, and live-action in games before Alpha Centauri. Those were not barriers to having "something to say", then or now. I really liked Alpha Centauri, so that's a callout I appreciate.
OP
OP
I thought I said in my OP I no longer look for deeper meaning in games? Not thinking games are mostly capable of deeper meaning and just enjoying games has helped me enjoy games again. I consider it a positive.
There's a reason I don't play a ton of AAA games these days. With few exceptions they all just go for the same "Huge world, dozens of hours of (mostly) repetitive content, barely engaging story". Even if I was in the mood for a game like that (it happens, sometimes I do just want dumb fun) I have a limited amount of free time and I can't even play a fraction of all the AAA games that come out.
As for great non-AAA games:
Outer Wilds was one of the most incredible games I've played in years and that was just some small indie team that put that together.
Before that The Witness became one of my favorite games ever. Even though it uses audio/video logs to push it's message across with zero subtlety, actually playing the game was still an amazing experience and you eventually learn just how incredibly designed the island is.
Sure that's only 2 examples over the last several years, but in all honesty, I don't need every game to make me think or appreciate the "craft" of game making, just like I don't watch a massive amount of heady, cerebral movies. I watch a lot of action and comedy just like I play a lot of action games, but it makes those special games all the better when I do get around to them.
As for great non-AAA games:
Outer Wilds was one of the most incredible games I've played in years and that was just some small indie team that put that together.
Before that The Witness became one of my favorite games ever. Even though it uses audio/video logs to push it's message across with zero subtlety, actually playing the game was still an amazing experience and you eventually learn just how incredibly designed the island is.
Sure that's only 2 examples over the last several years, but in all honesty, I don't need every game to make me think or appreciate the "craft" of game making, just like I don't watch a massive amount of heady, cerebral movies. I watch a lot of action and comedy just like I play a lot of action games, but it makes those special games all the better when I do get around to them.
Your messaging is kind of confusing then. You are saying AAA games don't offer that, but are ignoring some of the AAA games that do infact.
This is such a weird generalization
What Remains of Edith Fitch
The Last Guardian
Soma
The Last of Us 2
These are not games consisting of low-brow wish fulfilment. Really and truly, as essentially the entire thread has noted, you should branch out and play some different games, this medium has more to offer than ever.
What Remains of Edith Fitch
The Last Guardian
Soma
The Last of Us 2
These are not games consisting of low-brow wish fulfilment. Really and truly, as essentially the entire thread has noted, you should branch out and play some different games, this medium has more to offer than ever.
It does, it just presents its meaning differently than many games. BotW gave me feelings few other video games can match.
I completely reject the notion that all games should strive to be like it though, that's nonsense.
Yeah but they didn't costed $100m like new AAA games, today they NEED to be a hit so they don't take many risks with few exceptions like Death Stranding.
The peak of gaming. Weve been trying to reach this level of class and deepness ever since.
OP
OP
Yes, you get it. I really wanted to sink my teeth into a deep strategy rpg like FFT but I've given up on it ever happening. lol I'd rather just read Shakespeare or something. Why continue to wait for video games? I'm never going to get a new Front Mission or Tactics Ogre.
Do you mean in terms of the story and characters, or the open world? Because I didn't get that much at all out of the story personally.
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