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MLB Hall of Fame Class of 2019 announced. Mariano Rivera the first unanimous selection in the history of the HOF
- Thread starter jbug617
- Start date
Using Fangraphs WAR, they are around the same value, but using baseball reference's WAR solution, Rivera has about 20 more WAR than Baines. Quantifying the true value of a relief pitcher is difficult, and none of the WAR solutions available to the public make use of things like WPA or other leverage-based metrics. There is certainly more value in Rivera's overall career than just what his WAR shows. This is without even mentioning how unbelievable he was in the postseason, with a huge sample size of something like 150 innings too.
That's an awesome class. All some of the best of the best. No guys overrated because of saves or RBI or whatever other bullshit.
Players not being voted unanimously to this point had nothing to do with their actual production, it had to do with sanctimonious voters having a stick up their ass. On production alone, despite their flaws anybody who didn't vote for Piazza or Griffey for the Hall of Fame is, how do you say, a fucking dumbass.
Sure if you look at it in a vacuum but once the writers decided to apply an arbitrary standard then it makes sense that any minor flaws were magnified.
Those flaws were not the reason voters weren't voting in guys unanimously. Piazza could have been an elite defender and he wouldn't have been unanamous. The whole unanimous thing was a pure HoF Voter circle jerk thing that they decided today to bestow upon Mariano Rivera because he was so well liked. The voters would essentially collude to prevent any player, regardless of how deserving, from being voted in unanimously because for some reason 70 years ago Babe Ruth wasn't a unanimous selection. It had nothing to do with actual on field merits.
Completely elated Moose got in, he was my favorite player growing up.
I still can't believe Doc died and I get so fucking bummed out every time I think about it.
https://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/TOR/TOR200909040.shtml
I'll never forget the game he nearly no-hit us the year we won the world series.
I still can't believe Doc died and I get so fucking bummed out every time I think about it.
https://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/TOR/TOR200909040.shtml
I'll never forget the game he nearly no-hit us the year we won the world series.
Glad Halladay got in and sad he didn't live to accept it.
Is Pettitte getting held back due to admitting he took steroids? He's a lot closer to the 300 wins/3000k's benchmarks that aren't possible anymore. I would have thought he and Halladay would have had a whole lot closer vote total. Sure Halladay probably got fewer "I won't vote for someone first time" morons due to dying but 85% vs 10% is a massive difference.
Is Pettitte getting held back due to admitting he took steroids? He's a lot closer to the 300 wins/3000k's benchmarks that aren't possible anymore. I would have thought he and Halladay would have had a whole lot closer vote total. Sure Halladay probably got fewer "I won't vote for someone first time" morons due to dying but 85% vs 10% is a massive difference.
Andy is already sort of a borderline case, so the PED stuff probably sinks him completely when you look at the way Clemens and Bonds are treated. Roy has a much more impressive 7 year peak/JAWS than Andy. Their WAR is close only because Andy pitched 500 more innings.
I still remember how bad it hurt as a kid to have Mussina leave for the Yankees. People forget how good the Orioles were in the mid 90s and that the Yankees and Orioles were the bigger rivalry at the time than Boston. People were really pissed about Mussina. I still don't think he's had his number retired. If he goes in as an Oriole, they probably right that.
Halladay was a throwback and a quintessential modern pitcher at the same time. Every time he went , he legit aimed for 9 innings. But he was also 6 foot 6 power pitcher who pitched on a downward plane with movement
Oh wow the Writers finally got over themselves and did it. Well deserved .
Also Edgar ❤️❤️❤️❤️ He was one of my favorites
Also Edgar ❤️❤️❤️❤️ He was one of my favorites
Great selections all around. Get Bonds and Clemens in there now. Two of the most dominant players ever. They need to be in.
Roy Halladay's 2010 season was unreal.
21-10
2.44 ERA
NL Cy Young
1 Perfect Game
1 Postseason No-Hitter
RIP Legend
21-10
2.44 ERA
NL Cy Young
1 Perfect Game
1 Postseason No-Hitter
RIP Legend
Plenty of players should have been unanimous before, Mo. We're talking about all-time top 10 players.
Randy Johnson and Pedro Martinez were voted in a few years back. Two of the most dominant pitchers off all-time who pitched during the steroid era and neither were unanimous.
Yup, Edgar was so good against him compared to the other two pitchers going in with him :D
This year clinched that neither Bonds nor Clemens will get in within the 15 year window. There is enough of a fraction of the voters who aren't going to share their votes and won't vote for Bonds/Clemens that getting to the 75% mark is near impossible. Schilling has torpedoed his own campaign by being a moron and a bigot, and while it's easier to see him getting in than Bonds/Clemens, he's making zero progress and digging his heel in deeper.
The system needs changing, the ballots are stupidly congested with guys. Lance Berkman just got knocked off the ballot entirely on try #1. 56 career WAR, 144 career wRC+, one shot. There's 20 guys that are arguable.
The system needs changing, the ballots are stupidly congested with guys. Lance Berkman just got knocked off the ballot entirely on try #1. 56 career WAR, 144 career wRC+, one shot. There's 20 guys that are arguable.
Baines literally played in 1500 more games than Mo did. Him having a comparable career WAR from any of the 3 measurements is a terrible argument and if anything makes him look even worse in comparison that he couldn't beat out a relief pitcher and his best year was never close to Mo's best years.
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I doubt it. He would have had to pitch another 7 seasons if he won 13-14 games a year. That's barely below what he was averaging for his career, even if that included 3 half seasons. So he would likely be around 43 if he were to hit 300 wins. That would have been in 2020.
Mussina had 30 games to 300 and he was 39, and he had two really good seasons at age 37 and 39. I have a really hard time imagining Halladay being an effective pitcher at 40, and an even harder time at 42.
Every time I see Mo's stats, I am in disbelief. His ERA+ has been making the rounds today and it is a ridiculous 205. The next closest person isn't even the same ballpark as Mo. Then you look what he did during the post season and it's just amazing. He pitched roughly 2 seasons worth of innings for a RP in the post season with a 0.70 ERA.
Overall I am very happy with the class this year. I grew up watching Doc and Moose pitch against the Yankees and with Moose eventually with the Yankees. It is nice to see some of the voters not punishing players for not getting to certain counting stats.
Also happy for Edgar Martinez. Voters need to get over the DH stigma.
I'd really like to hear from these voters excluding suspected PED users like Bonds and Clemens justify it given the HOF's inlcusion of Bud Selig who I'd argue was huge part of the problem as the commissioner and who sat on his hands and did nothing about PEDs for a long time.
Overall I am very happy with the class this year. I grew up watching Doc and Moose pitch against the Yankees and with Moose eventually with the Yankees. It is nice to see some of the voters not punishing players for not getting to certain counting stats.
Also happy for Edgar Martinez. Voters need to get over the DH stigma.
I'd really like to hear from these voters excluding suspected PED users like Bonds and Clemens justify it given the HOF's inlcusion of Bud Selig who I'd argue was huge part of the problem as the commissioner and who sat on his hands and did nothing about PEDs for a long time.
Verducci was on the local radio talk show this morning and in short, voters like him really don't have much of an argument beyond the same bullshit of upholding some flimsy appearance of integrity of the Hall. You can't vote in the managers/commissioner who reaped the benefits of these players, and still refuse to vote them in.
Nearly all the greats used amphetamines which I'd argue gives a comparable advantage as steroids. Mickey Mantle has ties to steroids. The list goes on and on of cheaters in the Hall. What integrity are they trying to uphold? It's a joke.
The hall is a damn museum. Leaving out the most important figures from over a decade of baseball is beyond dumb. Hell, make them apologize for taking steroids during their induction speeches as a condition of being inducted if it's such a big deal.
I'm happy for Halladay's family, and him, himself. He was a total class act on top of being an incredible pitcher. Someone who cared a lot about this organization.
It's such a shame that he won't be there to receive the honour.
It's such a shame that he won't be there to receive the honour.
Roy Halladay's 2010 season was unreal.
21-10
2.44 ERA
NL Cy Young
1 Perfect Game
1 Postseason No-Hitter
RIP Legend
As a Giants fan I'll never forget those two epic match ups he had against Tim Lincecum in the 2010 NLCS.
RIP Doc.
David Ortiz was the second best player who ever played.
Nomah was first.
Halladay's wife announced that the family has decided that Roy's plaque will not no team logo on the hat. And fans on both sides seem to be losing their shit about it to varying degrees. No idea why fans give so much of a shit about which logo appears on a plaque they will likely never see after it's unveiled. The Hall of Fame is an individual honor, but shitty fans seem to want to make it about their team.
I know there are plenty of people in the Hall of Fame that don't deserve to be, but was Mussina ever a top pitcher in baseball for a given year? Dude finished in the top 4 in the Cy Young, one time.
And when you look at his wins... him being inducted is a travesty!!!!!
C'mon man.
Is Cy Young voting the only way to determine whether or not someone is a "top pitcher"? If only there were another way...
Isn't there an overlap between Hall of Fame voters and voters for Cy Youngs? Perhaps I'm wrong about that.
I've looked at WAR as well, and if that were the case, Curt Schilling would be in based on Moose's numbers. But being an asshole instead of a completely boring person apparently makes a difference as far as getting into the Hall.
The only controversial thing about Mussina's HOF case is that he wasn't inducted sooner (he also finished top 4 in CY Young voting more than one time if that is the only bizarrely arbitrary metric we're using). Curt Schilling will get in eventually, but if the voters want to watch him pick Twitter fights with fake Sidney Ponson accounts while he languishes for a little longer then more power to them.
At the request of his family, he will go in with a blank hat.
Neither belong in. Bonds was a cheat and Selig was complicit.