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Minus 70 degrees Celsius

Hasan Ali Almaci

Member
Sep 12, 2018
657
So the Pfizer coronavirus vaccine needs to be stored at this temperature or lower.

Reefer containers go between minus 40 and plus 50 when used for temperature sensitive goods and small amounts of goods are placed in minus 40 reefer containers within dry ice to maintain their integrity.

My question now is how will Pfizer in an economical way distribute this vaccine worldwide while not breaking the bank for the markets it ships to?

This vaccine will cost more then any vaccine before it per dose
 

Airegin

Member
Dec 10, 2017
3,908
Why does it need to be stored at a much lower temperature than other vaccines?
 
Lifejumper

Lifejumper

Member
Oct 25, 2017
25,634
Good question

71sOmmLhIbL._AC_SX569_.jpg
 
julia crawford

julia crawford

Took the red AND the blue pills
Member
Oct 27, 2017
35,621
So i'm guessing getting one of these things shot into my insides will probably be a very chill experience.
 

Joseph Elsbernd

Member
Nov 22, 2017
116
Dry ice is around minus 86 Celsius.

edit; transporting goods at -70c and below is routine and no big deal in biotech.
 
Veliladon

Veliladon

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,564
Airegin said:
Why does it need to be stored at a much lower temperature than other vaccines?
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Because it's an mRNA vaccine and RNA is easy to denature out in the environment. That's why most (all?) RNA viruses enclose their RNA in a capsid, a protein sheath that protects the RNA from the environment.
 

Airegin

Member
Dec 10, 2017
3,908
Veliladon said:
Because it's an mRNA vaccine and RNA is easy to denature out in the environment. That's why most viruses enclose their RNA in a capsid, a protein sheath that protects the RNA from the environment.
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Thanks. I hope I'm wrong but knowing people I can imagine there will be plenty of cases where the vaccines are being improperly stored.
 

eathdemon

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,690
Joseph Elsbernd said:
Dry ice is around minus 86 Celsius.

edit; transporting goods at -70c and below is routine and no big deal in biotech.
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thats the thing, this wouldnt be relatively small shipments between biotech firms, we are talking a nation wide destitution network. how manny places can even store something at -70c that meats medical standards? some high end hospitals, certainly not doctors offices or pharmacies.
 
Transistor

Transistor

Outer Wilds Ventures Test Pilot
Administrator
Oct 25, 2017
37,340
Washington, D.C.
My wife is a molecular biologist. She says this is normal for things of this sort. Most labs have freezers that go to -80c. The problem is healthcare facilities don't often have this.
 
VariantX

VariantX

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,934
Columbia, SC
eathdemon said:
thats the thing, this wouldnt be relatively small shipments between biotech firms, we are talking a nation wide destitution network. how manny places can even store something at -70c that meats medical standards? some high end hospitals, certainly not doctors offices or pharmacies.
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Yeah I recall that I worked with a guy who as an independent contractor who owned a small delivery business who had to deliver lab samples had to make a stop at a company that sells large quantities of ice to just pick up the dry ice to properly transport the samples to a mid-sized hospital so I imagine its probably not a thing where they're even set up to transport large quantities of things that are kept at that temp if you need to contract out outside delivery people for sensitive test materials.

Edit: Actually I remember the name of the place that sells the dry ice. Westside Ice here in Columbia. Not that it matters at all to the overall point lol
 

eathdemon

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,690
VariantX said:
Yeah I recall that I worked with a guy who as an independent contractor who owned a small delivery business who had to deliver lab samples had to make a stop at a company that sells large quantities of ice to just pick up the dry ice to properly transport the samples to a mid-sized hospital so I imagine its probably not a thing where they're even set up to transport large quantities of things that are kept at that temp if you need to contract out outside delivery people for sensitive test materials.

Edit: Actually I remember the name of the place that sells the dry ice. Westside Ice here in Columbia. Not that it matters at all to the overall point lol
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I suspect specials locations will likely need to be set up in most cities/towns.
 

Joseph Elsbernd

Member
Nov 22, 2017
116
eathdemon said:
thats the thing, this wouldnt be relatively small shipments between biotech firms, we are talking a nation wide destitution network. how manny places can even store something at -70c that meats medical standards? some high end hospitals, certainly not doctors offices or pharmacies.
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First you fill a styrofoam container (4-6" thick walls, pretty standard for industry, v-cheap) inside a cardboard box (to protect the styrofoam) with dry ice (available at super markets and at industrial scales). Next you put a temperature logger in the box (also very routine, not terribly expensive like 100 bucks) and then put the vaccines inside. The logger provides the FDA-level quality control you would need. Now every clinic in the country can store the vaccine.

Whats good is that since so many people will be lining up for the vaccine the clinics will receive these boxes with vaccines, pull them out, dose people, and not have to ever both refilling the dry-ice (which really isn't a big deal anyway).
 
Hrothgar

Hrothgar

Member
Nov 6, 2017
803
I doubt it specifically has to be stored at -70C. Thats just the standard temperature of the bio-freezer used in most labs. All the Biochemists I know just chuck their samples in there as a precaution without knowing whether their samples actually need that temperature to remain stable. Which is understandable, as usually the only other option is a poorly regulated -20C freezer.

In any case, nothing that dry-ice can't solve.
 

eathdemon

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,690
Hrothgar said:
I doubt it specifically has to be stored at -70C. Thats just the standard temperature of the bio-freezer used in most labs. All the Biovhemists I know just chuck their samples in there as a precaution without knowing whether their samples actually need that temperature to remain stable.
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well atm Pfizer says-70c, I would assume they have tested which temps the vaccine is stable at.
 
DaciaJC

DaciaJC

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
6,685
Heh, we just received a small freezer at my pharmacy last Friday in prep for the vaccine. I'll have to check its specs tomorrow. Last thing I remember having to store at freezing temperatures was Zostavax years ago.
 

eathdemon

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,690
Joseph Elsbernd said:
First you fill a styrofoam container (4-6" thick walls, pretty standard for industry, v-cheap) inside a cardboard box (to protect the styrofoam) with dry ice (available at super markets and at industrial scales). Next you put a temperature logger in the box (also very routine, not terribly expensive like 100 bucks) and then put the vaccines inside. The logger provides the FDA-level quality control you would need. Now every clinic in the country can store the vaccine.

Whats good is that since so many people will be lining up for the vaccine the clinics will receive these boxes with vaccines, pull them out, dose people, and not have to ever both refilling the dry-ice (which really isn't a big deal anyway).
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how long does the dry ice/temp last? would the vacines have to be air mailed or could it be shipped by more normal means?
 

eathdemon

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,690
DaciaJC said:
Heh, we just received a small freezer at my pharmacy last Friday in prep for the vaccine. I'll have to check its specs tomorrow. Last thing I remember having to store at freezing temperatures was Zostavax years ago.
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I doubt it, currently measles/mumps vaccines are the coldest at -30c, though if your pharmacy has one good on them.
 
Damaniel

Damaniel

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
6,546
Portland, OR
They've already designed boxes that can transport up to 5000 doses and maintain the temperature for a few days (enough to transport them to more permanent locations). Simple dry ice will do.
 
Bedameister

Bedameister

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,945
Germany
Dry ice actually lasts very long when stored right. I'm always surprised by it. I don't think this will be an unsolvable problem.
 
Reeks

Reeks

Self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,326
eathdemon said:
thats the thing, this wouldnt be relatively small shipments between biotech firms, we are talking a nation wide destitution network. how manny places can even store something at -70c that meats medical standards? some high end hospitals, certainly not doctors offices or pharmacies.
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It's not a big deal. This is done routinely.
 
BriGuy

BriGuy

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,275
I couldn't even tell you how many -80 freezers our research institute has, let alone how many thousands of packages we collectively receive and ship at those temperatures every year. Super duper routine. A vaccine that's stable at room temp is easier to ship and administer, but this isn't that big of an issue.
 

eathdemon

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,690
gdt said:
There's a great Wendover video about this. Only a couple weeks old.

youtu.be

Distributing the COVID Vaccine: The Greatest Logistics Challenge Ever

Sign up for a CuriosityStream subscription and also get a free Nebula subscription (the new streaming platform built by creators) here: http://CuriosityStrea...
youtu.be youtu.be
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yup he points out that as a matter of pure infostrure wealthy nations will end up going first. it may not be right, but you cant send a vacine to a nation that cant A keep it at -70c and wastes most of the doses before it goes bad, v say new york where it would used as many as you saind them.
 
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