Military uprising taking place in Venezuela (See Staff Post)

Muad'dib · May 1, 2019

Anything that is designed and engineered by Elliot Abrams and Bolton is pure evil in intent, nothing good will come of it, same as it happened in Iraq.

The chaos that is happening in Venezuela right now is one to one the same engineered and designed "creative destruction and chaos" pioneered by the neocons, Rice, Bolton, Abrams back in 2003.

Kirblar said:
I don't trust Abrams. He doesn't belong in government. I trust Venezuela's neighboring countries to not want a failed state pushing millions more refugees across their borders and to not want a civil war if at all possible. The coalition of nations supporting the opposition is far more than just the US.
.

You trust Brazil which is basically run by an ultra right wing fascist who looks up to Trump? Or Colombia who is basically America's Israel in South America?

Ortix · May 1, 2019

Muad'dib said:
Anything that is designed and engineered by Elliot Abrams and Bolton is pure evil in intent, nothing good will come of it, same as it happened in Iraq.

The chaos that is happening in Venezuela right now is one to one the same engineered and designed "creative destruction and chaos" pioneered by the neocons, Rice, Bolton, Abrams back in 2003.

You trust Brazil which is basically run by an ultra right wing fascist who looks up to Trump? Or Colombia who is basically America's Israel in South America?

Stop pushing this narrative. For the umpteenth time, the chaos is entirely Maduro's doing, as you would know if you'd read just a little of this thread.

Kirblar · May 1, 2019

Muad'dib said:
Anything that is designed and engineered by Elliot Abrams and Bolton is pure evil in intent, nothing good will come of it, same as it happened in Iraq.

The chaos that is happening in Venezuela right now is one to one the same engineered and designed "creative destruction and chaos" pioneered by the neocons, Rice, Bolton, Abrams back in 2003.

You trust Brazil which is basically run by an ultra right wing fascist who looks up to Trump? Or Colombia who is basically America's Israel in South America?

The problems in Venezuela are not due to US "chaos and destruction". They far, far predate them. The nationalization of their oil industry led to widespread incompetence and corruption that destroyed their production output and doubled down on the economic shocks brought by the oil price collapse. No one is forcing Maduro to print more and more and more money, causing hyperinflation. He's doing that all on his own.

I trust that the neighbors primarily want the refugees to stop flowing into their borders, and the only way to do that is to get a competent administration running the country. And what on earth do you mean by "America's Israel".

Deffers · May 1, 2019

Muad'dib said:
Anything that is designed and engineered by Elliot Abrams and Bolton is pure evil in intent, nothing good will come of it, same as it happened in Iraq.

The chaos that is happening in Venezuela right now is one to one the same engineered and designed "creative destruction and chaos" pioneered by the neocons, Rice, Bolton, Abrams back in 2003.

You trust Brazil which is basically run by an ultra right wing fascist who looks up to Trump? Or Colombia who is basically America's Israel in South America?

You could maybe look at the posts by Venezuelans in this thread to know that's a full-of-shit take. But hey, you're not alone in just ignoring and marginalizing the voices of actual people suffering through Maduro's regime.

Muad'dib · May 1, 2019

Ortix said:
Stop pushing this narrative. For the umpteenth time, the chaos is entirely Maduro's doing, as you would know if you'd read just a little of this thread.

This is as naive a take as it gets, the opposition leader was groomed in Washington and is receiving direct support from Washington.

Whatever chaos on the ground is on both sides, as both are engaging in armed warfare as of now, but the instigator? The one who decided to actually pursue forced regime change? Bolton.

Stop pushing this narrative, that's rich coming from people who didn't live through wars instigated by freaking neocons.

Deffers said:
You could maybe look at the posts by Venezuelans in this thread to know that's a full-of-shit take. But hey, you're not alone in just ignoring and marginalizing the voices of actual people suffering through Maduro's regime.

I'm Lebanese, I have relatives in Venezuela, as much as you'd hate to hear it, Maduro as shitty and corrupt as he is, has a lot of supporters. Same with Assad and any other dictator, Washington is pushing for a coup blindly like they did in Syria and Libya, they don't care what happens next, a civil war, just as long as they get their regime change.

Kirblar said:
The problems in Venezuela are not due to US "chaos and destruction". They far, far predate them. The nationalization of their oil industry led to widespread incompetence and corruption that destroyed their production output and doubled down on the economic shocks brought by the oil price collapse. No one is forcing Maduro to print more and more and more money, causing hyperinflation. He's doing that all on his own.

I trust that the neighbors primarily want the refugees to stop flowing into their borders, and the only way to do that is to get a competent administration running the country. And what on earth do you mean by "America's Israel".

Fully aware of those problems, and I'm fully aware that the current push for regime change is being championed by the same hawks that lead the Iraq invasion and the Israel 2006 war on Lebanon which I had to live through.

Deffers · May 1, 2019

Muad'dib said:
This is as naive a take as it gets, the opposition leader was groomed in Washington and is receiving direct support from Washington.

Whatever chaos on the ground is on both sides, as both are engaging in armed warfare as of now, but the instigator? The one who decided to actually pursue forced regime change? Bolton.

Stop pushing this narrative, that's rich coming from people who didn't live through wars instigated by freaking neocons.

Have you actually watched footage on the ground? If so, you'd know that the protesters currently still fighting are civilians armed with rocks. Now, maybe the CIA's had some budget cuts since the regime change of the 80's in LatAm, but typically paramilitaries are better-suppiled.

What you are actively trying to not understand is that people are so desperate that they took any opportunity to oppose the government, even one by a figure as suspected as Guaido. See, contrary to whatever noble savage tropefest is going on in your head, it turns out that political awareness is common among Venezuelans too. They're well aware of Guadio's more problematic connections and are willing to take a shot against the government with him. But please, continue infantilizing Venezuelans, many of which have posted in this thread, several of which have EXPLICITLY SAID they don't trust Guaido but are willing to support him in this.

Understand this-- 3.5 million refugees have fled Venezuela in the past SEVERAL years. Your take that all chaos "on the ground" (rich from someone who clearly hasn't seen footage of civilian protestors getting shot at by riot police) implies that 10% of your country's population leaving is business as usual. That not having food is business as usual. That people dying of preventable illness is usual. That drinking sewage water because potable supplies have diminished is usual.

What you, and everyone peddling these goddamn imbecilic takes doesn't understand is that people are sick and tired of living like animals. A neoliberal hellhole is preferable to a failed state hellhole even to a socialist since you can't run reform OR revolution in the face of a despot who is starving you well past the point of infirmity. This isn't propaganda. I have family in Venezuela; I can tell you myself there's not food or even consistent access to clean water. You could ask the other Venezuelans in this thread.

Oooor you could just go off on evil imperialism and tacitly endorse a murderous dictator. Your call.

Kirblar · May 1, 2019

Muad'dib said:
This is as naive a take as it gets, the opposition leader was groomed in Washington and is receiving direct support from Washington.

Whatever chaos on the ground is on both sides, as both are engaging in armed warfare as of now, but the instigator? The one who decided to actually pursue forced regime change? Bolton.

Stop pushing this narrative, that's rich coming from people who didn't live through wars instigated by freaking neocons.

I'm Lebanese, I have relatives in Venezuela, as much as you'd hate to hear it, Maduro as shitty and corrupt as he is, has a lot of supporters. Same with Assad and any other dictator, Washington is pushing for a coup blindly like they did in Syria and Libya, they don't care what happens next, a civil war, just as long as they get their regime change.

Fully aware of those problems, and I'm fully aware that the current push for regime change is being championed by the same hawks that lead the Iraq invasion and the Israel 2006 war on Lebanon which I had to live through.

By "groomed in Washington" you mean... he went to grad school at GWU and got a graduate degree in Public Administration? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juan_Guaidó#Early_life_and_education

A coup already happened. They are trying to push Maduro out because there are currently 3 million+ refugees already with many more to come if nothing changes there. You say you're "fully aware" of the problems but are unwilling to support a multinational coalition because "US BAD" even though no one is suggesting that we invade Venezuela at this time. The Iraq war buildup was done by people who had already decided to go to war before they even started pitching it publicly. The situation right now is a reactive response to a rapidly deteriorating country. Apples and Oranges.

Muad'dib · May 1, 2019

Deffers said:
Have you actually watched footage on the ground? If so, you'd know that the protesters currently still fighting are civilians armed with rocks. Now, maybe the CIA's had some budget cuts since the regime change of the 80's in LatAm, but typically paramilitaries are better-suppiled.

Yeah and the rebels in Syria started off with rocks, those civilians vanished and AlQuaeda with American TOW missiles came along. The Mujahideen in Afghanistan started off with AK's and turned to Stinger missiles. Seen this scenario play out before, right next door to me.

Deffers said:
What you are actively trying to not understand is that people are so desperate that they took any opportunity to oppose the government, even one by a figure as suspected as Guaido. See, contrary to whatever noble savage tropefest is going on in your head, it turns out that political awareness is common among Venezuelans too. They're well aware of Guadio's more problematic connections and are willing to take a shot against the government with him. But please, continue infantilizing Venezuelans, many of which have posted in this thread, several of which have EXPLICITLY SAID they don't trust Guaido but are willing to support him in this.

Well let me tell you something from someone who's seen and experienced this whole scenario before, whatever benevolent ideals the opposition has right now? That will turn into infighting, factionalism, civil war and more of bloody mess while all the rhetoric about freedom and democracy is spewed out on TV for international support. I'm all for the Venezuelans to get rid of Maduro, but all I'm seeing is a repeat of the desperation in Libya and Syria. They were politically aware there too.

Deffers said:
Understand this-- 3.5 million refugees have fled Venezuela in the past SEVERAL years. Your take that all chaos "on the ground" (rich from someone who clearly hasn't seen footage of civilian protestors getting shot at by riot police) implies that 10% of your country's population leaving is business as usual. That not having food is business as usual. That people dying of preventable illness is usual. That drinking sewage water because potable supplies have diminished is usual.

Quit your condescension, I lived through the last stages of the Lebanese civil war and three wars against Israel, seen people with their heads blown off and had brushes with suicide car bombs in Beirut, I know what the fuck misery is.

Deffers said:
What you, and everyone peddling these goddamn imbecilic takes doesn't understand is that people are sick and tired of living like animals. A neoliberal hellhole is preferable to a failed state hellhole even to a socialist since you can't run reform OR revolution in the face of a despot who is starving you well past the point of infirmity. This isn't propaganda. I have family in Venezuela; I can tell you myself there's not food or even consistent access to clean water. You could ask the other Venezuelans in this thread.

Oooor you could just go off on evil imperialism and tacitly endorse a murderous dictator. Your call.

I'd rather not endorse Maduro and at the same time I refuse to endorse an American led coup or regime change, I can do that.

Ortix · May 1, 2019

Muad'dib said:
This is as naive a take as it gets, the opposition leader was groomed in Washington and is receiving direct support from Washington.

Whatever chaos on the ground is on both sides, as both are engaging in armed warfare as of now, but the instigator? The one who decided to actually pursue forced regime change? Bolton.

Stop pushing this narrative, that's rich coming from people who didn't live through wars instigated by freaking neocons.

I'm Lebanese, I have relatives in Venezuela, as much as you'd hate to hear it, Maduro as shitty and corrupt as he is, has a lot of supporters. Same with Assad and any other dictator, Washington is pushing for a coup blindly like they did in Syria and Libya, they don't care what happens next, a civil war, just as long as they get their regime change.

Fully aware of those problems, and I'm fully aware that the current push for regime change is being championed by the same hawks that lead the Iraq invasion and the Israel 2006 war on Lebanon which I had to live through.

Take a look at the post just above yours from someone from Venezuela, and don't just shove it aside to shove your own narrative down their throat.

NoUse4AName said:
The problem Track with Chavez destroying the economy of a Country....since 2003. When I leave the country since 2016 the crisis was already there...In 2015 was already a luxury to buy food (if you was able to find it) ......some Basic stuff disappeared from the supermarket since 2008.

Stop the Trump, Sanctions argument.

That's government propaganda for the poor and ignorant people that still support them.

NoUse4AName · May 1, 2019

So the United States force Chavez / Maduro to:

Create and maintain an Exchange control for 18 years.
Expropriate almost every successful industry in the Country only to destroy every single one of them.
Sign oil contracts with his allies that harm our economy.
Get a ridiculous debt with China and Russia.
Destroy the oil industry.
Create a stupid price control system that totally destroys every industrial sector in the country.
Create a Corruption scheme based on preferential exchange rates.
Create apartheid destroying the life of millions of Venezuelan citizens.

Everything....with an oil barrel over 100$.

So I suppose the USA is also to blame for 25.000 homicides Yearly rate.

You can disagree with Trump or the external policy of the USA ...But there is no need to support or endorse bloody dictators just to prove your point.

The USA has nothing to Blame in the Venezuelan Crisis. The Blame is on Chavez/Maduro and the people who support them

Deffers · May 1, 2019

Muad'dib said:
Quit your condescension, I lived through the last stages of the Lebanese civil war and three wars against Israel, seen people with their heads blown off and had brushes with suicide car bombs in Beirut, I know what the fuck misery is.

Yeah, here's the problem with my so-called condescension. If you'd listened to the Venezuelans in this thread you'd be familiar with the Colectivos-- i.e. Maduro's own paramilitary death squads which have been active for years and have already been blowing people's heads off. You'd be familiar with reports of torture and confirmed examples of political prisoners being taken. You'd be well aware people have been imprisoned and died in prison for opposing the Chavista regime. Car bombs may not be popular, but as NoUse4AName pointed out, there's 25,000 homicides per year and people have been killed in protests plenty over the years. Food is scarce. Water is scarce. If you know what the fuck misery is, you know misery's already there. Has been for years.

I verbalized this in the Socialism thread but I'm going to try to do so a little bit more in-depth here. By comparing what's happening in Venezuela to previous examples of regime change in the US, in an odd way you're actually validating propaganda about those places. Peoples' takes about this intervention only make sense if "absolute hell" is viewed to be the default in Latin America, with some sort of worse state being the outcome of US intervention. But, in all those cases, LatAM especially, the US's intervention took out a mostly functional government and replaced it with a nightmarish one. They're not COMPARABLE to this because those countries weren't IMPLODING. Condemning this with the same vigor implies that the US should have no stake in a refugee crisis that's destabilizing all of Latin America, which in turn makes it seem like that's just the status quo. It isn't. There were perfectly functional socialist governments that were overthrown-- this isn't one of them. The international nature of this support has to also be seen as a distinguishing factor. This is not a regional pissing match. This is genuinely a dictator who has suspended a functioning democracy.

And unfortunately, when it's the civilians participating in this coup, you can't just say you don't support Maduro but you do support his removal but you don't support THIS removal. Not only is that an incoherent position, it kind of ignores the actual reality of what's been going on in the coup. Guaido tried to get the support of the military, and he couldn't. He abjectly failed and whatever supporters he had in the high ranks have gotten cold feet. The people are the ones who fight on anyway. If this is the extent of efficacy that the CIA has for coups these days, it's a far cry from what they've done in the past.

Lastly, I'll reiterate what has been said in this thread before. "First Maduro, then Guaido" is a wholly consistent and valid position.

Cpt-GargameL · May 1, 2019

So we might intervene? And if we do apparently Russia will step against US? This is wild.

Deleted member 35598 · May 1, 2019

Muad'dib said:
This is as naive a take as it gets, the opposition leader was groomed in Washington and is receiving direct support from Washington.

Whatever chaos on the ground is on both sides, as both are engaging in armed warfare as of now, but the instigator? The one who decided to actually pursue forced regime change? Bolton.

Stop pushing this narrative, that's rich coming from people who didn't live through wars instigated by freaking neocons.

I'm Lebanese, I have relatives in Venezuela, as much as you'd hate to hear it, Maduro as shitty and corrupt as he is, has a lot of supporters. Same with Assad and any other dictator, Washington is pushing for a coup blindly like they did in Syria and Libya, they don't care what happens next, a civil war, just as long as they get their regime change.

Fully aware of those problems, and I'm fully aware that the current push for regime change is being championed by the same hawks that lead the Iraq invasion and the Israel 2006 war on Lebanon which I had to live through.

Yes this is he typical American regime change playbook. They have their guy ready to step in ( same with Karzai in Afghanistan and El Sisi in Egypt ). When Guaido will be in place there will be a huge "reconstruction" program. And guess which companies are going to be selected ? Yes the American ones. We've seen this play out so many times we know the script by heart by now.

I mean "Operation Freedom". You've got to be kidding me. Even the name of the movement sounds like a US military operations. Seriously, the Neocons couldn't come up with something that sounded less US inspired ?

jett · May 1, 2019

This seems to have been a failure so far.

FerDS · May 1, 2019

Cpt-GargameL said:
So we might intervene? And if we do apparently Russia will step against US? This is wild.

So far there doesn't really seem to be an intention of actual military intervention unless things truly get out of hand (maybe if Guaidó is imprisoned or murdered), just to pressure Maduro and his government to leave and allow a temporary government that will call for elections

ibyea · May 1, 2019

Ex-Actarus said:
Yes this is he typical American regime change playbook. They have their guy ready to step in ( same with Karzai in Afghanistan and El Sisi in Egypt ). When Guaido will be in place there will be a huge "reconstruction" program. And guess which companies are going to be selected ? Yes the American ones. We've seen this play out so many times we know the script by heart by now.

I mean "Operation Freedom". You've got to be kidding me. Even the name of the movement sounds like a US military operations. Seriously, the Neocons couldn't come up with something that sounded less US inspired ?

Gotta say, I don't really give a shit. Venezuela is already losing its sovereignty to Russia. If Guaido is a right wing US puppet, change to Guaido will just mean the usual loss of sovereignty, except with less famine. Tens of thousands of Venezuelans are getting murdered each year anyways since it is one of the most violent country in the world, only being topped by places like Iraq and El Salvador. Whatever neoliberalism hellhole you are thinking of, it is going to be an improvement from this PSUV caused catastrophe. That is how bad Venezuela is right now.

Luminish · May 1, 2019

ibyea said:
Gotta say, I don't really give a shit. Venezuela is already losing its sovereignty to Russia. If Guaido is a right wing US puppet, change to Guaido will just mean the usual loss of sovereignty, except with less famine. Tens of thousands of Venezuelans are getting murdered each year anyways since it is one of the most violent country in the world, only being topped by places like Iraq and El Salvador. Whatever neoliberalism hellhole you are thinking of, it is going to be an improvement from this PSUV caused catastrophe. That is how bad Venezuela is right now.

Would Guaido over Maduro be worth it if it took a large bloody war to get there?

lmcfigs · May 1, 2019

FerDS said:
So far there doesn't really seem to be an intention of actual military intervention unless things truly get out of hand (maybe if Guaidó is imprisoned or murdered), just to pressure Maduro and his government to leave and allow a temporary government that will call for elections

I'm just curious. why wouldn't Guadio be imprisoned? He led a coup against the sovereign government of Venezuela.

Ichthyosaurus · May 1, 2019

Muad'dib said:
This is as naive a take as it gets, the opposition leader was groomed in Washington and is receiving direct support from Washington.

Receipts, please. Of course he's trying to get support from the US. Put yourself in his shoes, why wouldn't you go to the US and other countries for back up to dethrone Maduro?

Whatever chaos on the ground is on both sides, as both are engaging in armed warfare as of now, but the instigator? The one who decided to actually pursue forced regime change? Bolton.

You're using Both Sides to dismiss Madura's role in Venezuela. This is a not a wash, Maduro had vastly more influence on Venezuela's current status quo than America did.

I'm Lebanese, I have relatives in Venezuela, as much as you'd hate to hear it, Maduro as shitty and corrupt as he is, has a lot of supporters. Same with Assad and any other dictator, Washington is pushing for a coup blindly like they did in Syria and Libya, they don't care what happens next, a civil war, just as long as they get their regime change.

Except Maduro is illigitimate and he's the one doing a coup. You don't want a regime change? You'd be ok leaving Maduro to do what he wants?

Fully aware of those problems, and I'm fully aware that the current push for regime change is being championed by the same hawks that lead the Iraq invasion and the Israel 2006 war on Lebanon which I had to live through.

Except this isn't Iraq, and sometimes a broken clock is right. Like, say, Afghanistan post-9/11.

FerDS · May 1, 2019

lmcfigs said:
I'm just curious. why wouldn't Guadio be imprisoned? He led a coup against the sovereign government of Venezuela.

That's a testament to how little strength Maduro has. While Guaido has been touring around the city freely Maduro hasn't publicly left the presidential palace

MasterChumly · May 1, 2019

lmcfigs said:
I'm just curious. why wouldn't Guadio be imprisoned? He led a coup against the sovereign government of Venezuela.

It's the exact opposite. Maduro has already pulled a coup and people are fighting back.

Dude Abides · May 2, 2019

thepotatoman said:
Would Guaido over Maduro be worth it if it took a large bloody war to get there?

You're not going to get an answer to this.

Ichthyosaurus said:
Receipts, please. Of course he's trying to get support from the US. Put yourself in his shoes, why wouldn't you go to the US and other countries for back up to dethrone Maduro?

You're using Both Sides to dismiss Madura's role in Venezuela. This is a not a wash, Maduro had vastly more influence on Venezuela's current status quo than America did.

Except Maduro is illigitimate and he's the one doing a coup. You don't want a regime change? You'd be ok leaving Maduro to do what he wants?

Except this isn't Iraq, and sometimes a broken clock is right. Like, say, Afghanistan post-9/11.

So what's your grand plan to solve the situation? I see a lot of moral preening from the interventionists, little in the way of actual solutions.

Ichthyosaurus · May 2, 2019

Dude Abides said:
So what's your grand plan to solve the situation? I see a lot of moral preening from the interventionists, little in the way of actual solutions.

Sanction and international pressure, invasion as a last resort. Non-intervention hasn't worked out so far, I wish it did. Negotiation as a tactic has failed.

Dude Abides · May 2, 2019

Ichthyosaurus said:
Sanction and international pressure, invasion as a last resort. Non-intervention hasn't worked out so far, I wish it did. Negotiation as a tactic has failed.

Sanctions and international pressure have already failed. When should we invade to spread democracy? Next month? What if the regime and its sympathizers resist? What's an acceptable death toll to birth the New Venezuela?

Ichthyosaurus · May 2, 2019

Dude Abides said:
Sanctions and international pressure have already failed. When should we invade to spread democracy? Next month?

They've kept Guaido alive, and the resistance in the legit government isn't being purged. I don't treat invasion lightly, that's why I said "as a last resort." Care to fill the rest of the class in other peaceful suggestions which would help Venezuela not fall into a civil war?

Dude Abides · May 2, 2019

Ichthyosaurus said:
They've kept Guaido alive, and the resistance in the legit government isn't being purged. I don't treat invasion lightly, that's why I said "as a last resort." Care to fill the rest of the class in other peaceful suggestions which would help Venezuela not fall into a civil war?

It's very possible there are none. But that does not of course mean that invasion is any kind of solution, last resort or otherwise. How long are you willing to have US troops occupy Venezuela and how many deaths would be justified by regime change?

Kirblar · May 2, 2019

Dude Abides said:
Sanctions and international pressure have already failed. When should we invade to spread democracy? Next month? What if the regime and its sympathizers resist? What's an acceptable death toll to birth the New Venezuela?

What do you consider an acceptable death toll for the people currently living in a country devolving into a failed state?

At a certain point the tradeoff for risked losses going to war vs potential losses not doing so for the people living there will make a civil war happen out of sheer necessity. I have no idea where that point is. I know it isn't now and I hope it never has to come to that.

Ichthyosaurus · May 2, 2019

Dude Abides said:
It's very possible there are none. But that does not of course mean that invasion is any kind of solution, last resort or otherwise.

If there are none then why is the left so adamant about doing nothing being a moral high ground in this argument?

How long are you willing to have US troops occupy Venezuela and how many deaths would be justified by regime change?

How many deaths are justified in not unseating Maduro?

Dude Abides · May 2, 2019

Kirblar said:
What do you consider an acceptable death toll for the people currently living in a country devolving into a failed state?

At a certain point the tradeoff for risked losses going to war vs potential losses not doing so for the people living there will make a civil war happen out of sheer necessity. I have no idea where that point is. I know it isn't now and I hope it never has to come to that.

Have you noticed that your earlier claim that nobody is advocating for an invasion is not entirely accurate?

Ichthyosaurus said:
If there are none then why is the left so adamant about doing nothing being a moral high ground in this argument?

How many deaths are justified in not unseating Maduro?

Who is this "The Left" and why are you asking me why he or she does this or that? Why can't you just answer my question about the acceptable costs of the invasion you favor? It's straightforward enough. I would expect a Very Serious Person to have thought this through a bit more. Empty moral posturing with no consideration for the implications or possible negative consequences of a policy is for those soft-headed leftists, after all, not very sober and realistic people.

Ichthyosaurus · May 2, 2019

Dude Abides said:
Have you noticed that your earlier claim that nobody is advocating for an invasion is not entirely accurate?

Of course the context you're ignoring is that it's a last resort. As though that was identical to when neocons advocate bloody wars ASAP.

Who is this "The Left" and why are you asking me why he or she does this or that?

You're got to be kidding me lol You're going to tell me everyone agree with you in this thread, and lots of others on this topic, aren't leftists? (Not all leftists, mind you, but a large portion.)

Why can't you just answer my question about the acceptable costs of the invasion you favor? It's straightforward enough. I would expect a Very Serious Person to have thought this through a bit more. Empty moral posturing with no consideration for the implications or possible negative consequences of a policy is for those soft-headed leftists, after all, not very sober and realistic people.

Because it's a loaded question with no real answer, that's why you ignored my rebuttal when I pointed that back at you. I take this matter very seriously, and something like that would require lots of variables which I don't have the information on. Of course the framing of your question is one which relies on appealing to emotion rather than logic and ignores its own implications of doing nothing. Which have cost the country plenty in lives but you seem ok doing that to score some political points when this subject deserves more consideration for the people in Venezuela. There's nothing empty here, I've tried to accomodate all options from this debate in these threads, which is difficult to do when one side has some answers to things and the other has very few aside from negotiation, doing absolutely nothing and directing all their ire at the US while dismissing Maduro impact on Venezuela. Saying "American imperialism" over and over again is not a cheat code to winning arguments over serious topics on the internet. Particularly when many of the same people rarely make an effort to penalise Russia's involvement and they have real troops and aircraft there supporting Maduro.

Manashima · May 2, 2019

Ortix said:
As usual, you are absolutely wrong.

Why is it every time you seem to be on the wrong side?

So it seems to be that the right wing terrorist opposition leader of the party "Popular Will", Leopaldo Lopez, who started and led the Gaurimba riots that caused 40 people to die, is now in the spanish embassy. The Coup has failed again.

Please note that Venezuelan government originally sentenced the terrorist Lopez to prison, but commuted his sentence to house arrest. I wonder what the US will do to Essange. Will he be tortured? Lopez is an actual terrorist. Essange is just a publisher.

SaveWeyard · May 2, 2019

Manashima said:
Essange is just a publisher.

I'm not in favor of Assange's extradition to the US, but its a mischaracterization to call him "just a publisher".

Dude Abides · May 2, 2019

Ichthyosaurus said:
Of course the context you're ignoring is that it's a last resort. As though that was identical to when neocons advocate bloody wars ASAP.

Neocons also claim they only want it as a last resort, whatever that is even supposed to mean in this context. In any event, you aren't the only one who thinks Daddy America should put this right.

You're got to be kidding me lol You're going to tell me everyone agree with you in this thread, and lots of others on this topic, aren't leftists?

I was merely pointing out that the rhetorical tactic of "I demand you answer for everyone I've decided must be on your side!", while oft-deployed, is lame and stupid.

Because it's a loaded question with no real answer, that's why you ignored my rebuttal when I pointed that back at you. I take this matter very seriously, and something like that would require lots of variables which I don't have the information on. Of course the framing of your question is one which relies on appealing to emotion rather than logic and ignores its own implications of doing nothing. Which have cost the country plenty in lives but you seem ok doing that to score some political points when this subject deserves more consideration for the people in Venezuela. There's nothing empty here, I've tried to accomodate all options from this debate in these threads, which is difficult to do when one side has some answers to things and the other has very few aside from negotiation, doing absolutely nothing and directing all their ire at the US while dismissing Maduro impact on Venezuela. Saying "American imperialism" over and over again is not a cheat code to winning arguments over serious topics on the internet. Particularly when many of the same people rarely make an effort to penalise Russia's involvement and they have real troops and aircraft there supporting Maduro.

So you haven't given any consideration to the costs of the policy you favor, showing that you don't take this seriously at all, you just like to flatter yourself that you do. And lol at saying you're the one using logic and reason when you do nothing but shed crocodile tears for people in Venezuela and haven't even given the first thought as to whether your proposed course of action has any downsides for them that might outweigh the positives. What happens after the glorious invasion? How many troops should we send? How long should they stay? What if there is a significant guerrilla war? You haven't thought about any of this. You offer nothing but empty emotional rhetoric and facile self-satisfaction. Your posts could be lifted straight from the pages of the Weekly Standard in 2002.

I didn't say "American Imperialism" once, by the way. Why don't you try engaging with the points being made instead of stuoid caricatures?

Ichthyosaurus · May 2, 2019

Manashima said:
"Popular Will",

Which is not right wing, in fact it's part of the Socialist International.

The Coup has failed again.

Why do you view Maduro as legitimate?

Dude Abides said:
Neocons also claim they only want it as a last resort, whatever that is even supposed to mean in this context.

You know what last resort means.

In any event, you aren't the only one who thinks Daddy America should put this right.

And you think leaving Maduro as he is is morally righteous? Where are your concerns for what he's doing to Venezuela?

I was merely pointing out that the rhetorical tactic of "I demand you answer for everyone I've decided must be on your side!", while oft-deployed, is lame and stupid.

It's not stupid when it's true. If you don't have answers don't expect me to react like you do. I'm trying my best to figure out what needs to happen to help Venezuela but I have the self awareness to know I probably never will. The whole situation is so complex and tragic, it's difficult to know what will be the correct response. That's why I ask questions from people who think on a separate wavelength and why it's disappointing when they have less answers than I do.

So you haven't given any consideration to the costs of the policy you favor, showing that you don't take this seriously at all, you just like to flatter yourself that you do. And lol at saying you're the one using logic and reason when you do nothing but shed crocodile tears for people in Venezuela and haven't even given the first thought as to whether your proposed course of action has any downsides for them that might outweigh the positives.

Downplaying the context for my posts about engaging in invasion, as shown upthread, to provide a black and white framing so doing nothing appears about Maduro on the surface looks like a positive stance while completely ignoring his negative impact (and Russia's - remember those guys? They have troops there) which includes mass starvation, an imploding economy, an oil industry that's falling apart from his mismanagement by letting the military control everything, death squads, holding reporters hostage for asking him questions in interviews etc.

Of course an invasion has downsides, that's obvious. That's why I don't think it should be done rashly, or at all if possible. Don't think I haven't noticed your ignoring your own argument ignoring Venezuela's status quo as though people aren't being killed or having their lives ruined on a large scale in our engagement. Your silence is deafening on this subject.

You offer nothing but empty emotional rhetoric straight and facile self-satisfaction. Your posts could be lifted straight from the pages of the Weekly Standard in 2002.

Framing everyone who disagrees with you as conservative is not a good idea and it shows a lack of depth in acknowledging the politics around you. But of course it's just a cheap shot to make sure the opposition to your side is seen as impure, difficult to regain the moral high ground when supporting dictators and Vladimir Putin. Who actually is right wing in case you're wondering.

MeaningOfKarma · May 2, 2019

Manashima said:
Why is it every time you seem to be on the wrong side?

So it seems to be that the right wing terrorist opposition leader of the party "Popular Will", Leopaldo Lopez, who started and led the Gaurimba riots that caused 40 people to die, is now in the spanish embassy. The Coup has failed again.

Please note that Venezuelan government originally sentenced the terrorist Lopez to prison, but commuted his sentence to house arrest. I wonder what the US will do to Essange. Will he be tortured? Lopez is an actual terrorist. Essange is just a publisher.

Would you care to answer how, exactly, many of those forty people died?

gunshot wounds from pro-Maduro paramilitary groups and security forces

Absolute clownshoes shit

Manashima · May 2, 2019

Ichthyosaurus said:
Which is not right wing, in fact it's part of the Socialist International.

Do you not know the history of the party of Popular will? Heres a breakdown of their leaders Lopez and Guaido- they are ultra right wing supported by the Neocons.

https://www.mintpressnews.com/the-m...oratory-created-venezuela-coup-leader/254387/

SaveWeyard · May 2, 2019

Ichthyosaurus said:
Which is not right wing, in fact it's part of the Socialist International.

I hope you know that the SI isn't a socialist association.

Menx64 · May 2, 2019

I have several friends from Venezuela that came here in the last couple of years... Many seem frustrated at this attempts since many believe the people will just lose faith and give up.
Guaido must be smarter than her is currently to avoid people giving up on him quickly.

Kirblar · May 2, 2019

Manashima said:
Do you not know the history of the party of Popular will? Heres a breakdown of their leaders Lopez and Guaido- they are ultra right wing supported by the Neocons.

https://www.mintpressnews.com/the-m...oratory-created-venezuela-coup-leader/254387/

Oh hey, look at that, a website run by RT people. Gee, I wonder why they're publishing blatant propaganda?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Blumenthal#Russia

And Cohen's listed on their on-air talent page.

Ichthyosaurus · May 2, 2019

Manashima said:
Do you not know the history of the party of Popular will? Heres a breakdown of their leaders Lopez and Guaido- they are ultra right wing supported by the Neocons.

https://www.mintpressnews.com/the-m...oratory-created-venezuela-coup-leader/254387/

Do you have any other sources besides "Mind Press News?"

edit: Christ, Kirblah that's worse than I thought. :(

SaveWeyard said:
I hope you know that the SI isn't a socialist association.

Socialism is an immensely large political ideology, the Jacobin disagreeing isn't a sign that it's not.

SaveWeyard · May 2, 2019

Ichthyosaurus said:
Socialism is an immensely large political ideology, the Jacobin disagreeing isn't a sign that it's not.

The current president is the former prime minister of Greece. The one who implemented austerity in the face of the Greek debt crisis. There's no way to construe it as a socialist organization.

Armadilo · May 2, 2019

Rupetta said:
Why is it every time you seem to be on the wrong side?

So it seems to be that the right wing terrorist opposition leader of the party "Popular Will", Leopaldo Lopez, who started and led the Gaurimba riots that caused 40 people to die, is now in the spanish embassy. The Coup has failed again.

Please note that Venezuelan government originally sentenced the terrorist Lopez to prison, but commuted his sentence to house arrest. I wonder what the US will do to Essange. Will he be tortured? Lopez is an actual terrorist. Essange is just a publisher.

Just let people have freedom, let people live in peace and hopefully change happens

Deleted member 18324 · May 2, 2019

Ichthyosaurus said:
Of course the context you're ignoring is that it's a last resort. As though that was identical to when neocons advocate bloody wars ASAP.

"It won't be like when the neocons do it" he says, while the man who covered up Iran-Contra is the US' Special Representative to Venezuela, John Bolton is the current national security adviser and the Republican party is in office. I'm sure this will somehow be a success for human rights and the rule of law despite the well-documented performance of these psychopaths in modern history.

It is either deeply ignorant or frankly sociopathic to crow for regime change that will be administered by these people. I'm going to be generous and go with ignorant, since the go-to response seems to be "BUHHH THAT MEANS YOU SUPPORT MADURO", as though that hasn't been thrown around before every American intervention, shortly before the mass murder of civilians begins.

Ac30 · May 2, 2019

MeaningOfKarma said:
By "UN arbitration" I suppose I mean "forceful joint UN intervention", more or less.

There would be a nation leading it, so it would still be US-led even if authorised by the UN Security Council, which it won't since China and Russia aren't for it.

Also, Guaido just needs to give it 10 years, Chavez's coup attempt failed and he still made it!

Ichthyosaurus · May 2, 2019

SteffK said:
"It won't be like when the neocons do it" he says, while the man who covered up Iran-Contra is the US' Special Representative to Venezuela, John Bolton is the current national security adviser and the Republican party is in office. I'm sure this will somehow be a success for human rights and the rule of law despite the well-documented performance of these psychopaths in modern history.

You say this as though I don't disagree with your assessment, when the options you're pushing amount to doing nothing about Maduro as if that's the moral high ground.

It is either deeply ignorant or frankly sociopathic to crow for regime change that will be administered by these people. I'm going to be generous and go with ignorant, since the go-to response seems to be "BUHHH THAT MEANS YOU SUPPORT MADURO", as though that hasn't been thrown around before every American intervention, shortly before the mass murder of civilians begins.

Who says I'd prefer these people to do the regime changing? I certainly don't, and have the same worries you do about them. However, Madura's status quo is unsustainable and the left isn't giving any better signs of showing how to make a peaceful transfer of power so people are reluctantly siding with the devil they know because something must be done to end this.

There's been only one side focusing the majority of getting rid of Maduro, and Russia's influence in Venezuela, and it's not yours. So yes, it comes off as supporting that side because you'd rather shrug your shoulders then come up with a realistic peaceful solutions that we'd prefer because absolutely nobody wants the US to do anything involving the military there. Maduro has been murdering hundreds of civilians for a while, so it has begun.

SaveWeyard said:
The current president is the former prime minister of Greece. The one who implemented austerity in the face of the Greek debt crisis. There's no way to construe it as a socialist organization.

Then take it up with your follow socialists, I'm simply pointing out what's going on on the international scene.

JonnyDBrit · May 2, 2019

Ac30 said:
There would be a nation leading it, so it would still be US-led even if authorised by the UN Security Council, which it won't since China and Russia aren't for it.

Also, Guaido just needs to give it 10 years, Chavez's coup attempt failed and he still made it!

If Guaido can keep himself from being caught, then he may be able to build something long term - sure, this attempt has failed, but the inability of the government to capture him can itself be spun. Problem is, 'long term' would likely take Guaido beyond the limits of his actual term in the National Assembly, at which points his claims to legitimacy rather drop a tad, even if Maduro has already blocked the ability to reaffirm said legitimacy.

Ac30 · May 2, 2019

JonnyDBrit said:
If Guaido can keep himself from being caught, then he may be able to build something long term - sure, this attempt has failed, but the inability of the government to capture him can itself be spun. Problem is, 'long term' would likely take Guaido beyond the limits of his actual term in the National Assembly, at which points his claims to legitimacy rather drop a tad, even if Maduro has already blocked the ability to reaffirm said legitimacy.

At current inflation rates and with the complete collapse of the economy even the army won't hold Maduro up beyond the next 2-3 years. They'll find some other useful puppet and if Guaido can convince them they'll keep their cushy jobs they'll back him.

We can all talk about US/Russian or whatever influence ops but the Army's grip on the government is the real crisis.

Depressing how once promising countries like Venezuela and Thailand are constantly having their governments overthrown by military strongmen,.

JonnyDBrit · May 2, 2019

Ac30 said:
At current inflation rates and with the complete collapse of the economy even the army won't hold Maduro up beyond the next 2-3 years. They'll find some other useful puppet and if Guaido can convince them they'll keep their cushy jobs they'll back him.

We can all talk about US/Russian or whatever influence ops but the Army's grip on the government is the real crisis.

There is of course the potential, classic scenario of some General themselves deciding to revolt, though IIRC, isn't the Venezuelan military heavily decentralised to prevent that?

...which I realise could also just mean a bunch of folks having the same idea...

Ac30 · May 2, 2019

JonnyDBrit said:
There is of course the potential, classic scenario of some General themselves deciding to revolt, though IIRC, isn't the Venezuelan military heavily decentralised to prevent that?

...which I realise could also just mean a bunch of folks having the same idea...

There's been a number of attempts by military members, not led by Guaidó.

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/...soldiers-triggering-protests-and-more-turmoil

Not sure how the military is organised, but Maduro's put them in charge of almost all remaining lucrative industries to stop them overthrowing him.

Deleted member 14459 · May 2, 2019

Armadilo said:
Jesus what is Wrong with people holy, this is just someone that's drinking too much maduro coolaid. Maduro is crazy, an awful dictator and would say anything to lock up his enemies.

This is just absurd, shaking my head

can you please edit your post - that is not a quote attributable to me and in no way reflects my thinking?

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