The post he is replying to is in regards to the voodoo boys and animals gangs.
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Mike Pondsmith's (Cyberpunk 2020 creator) response to some Cyberpunk 2077 criticism (accuracy to his orig. work, race representation) [see staff post]
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People were complaining about the voodoo boys and how that relates to representation. He isn't talking about the trans topic.
Yeah I know. I just don't wanna see a situation where his desire to defend his (co)creation from overzealous, but well meaning people, ends up getting him dragged completely into the crowd at the deep end of the gamer pool. It would hurt both him and the game, and reinforce those people at the deep end's delusion that they are right and fighting the good fight
Oh okay, was going to say yikes, instead I can just say carry on lol
This would be somewhat true, if it wouldn't be for the fact that Cyberpunk 2020 was and still is praised already for decades now not only as a great tapletop RPG but as a great piece in the cyberpunk genre as a whole..
And so far all the demos of Cyberpunk2077 were about who you can trust in the world, double-crossing and betrayal.. this is how Cyberpunk 2020 was described by a UK role-playing magazine Arcane:"Cyberpunk is set in an unforgiving world where betrayal and double-crosses are common, trust is hard to find and paranoia is a useful survival trait." So far the game was true to this to a T
Can't speak for the concerns of those involved with these things as wasn't affected, this seems a better "gotcha" for people suggesting it wasn't faithful to the original rather than anyone that felt like the representations of their race were questionable.
Glad they don't venture into the trans topic, though OP could have been a little more genuine by putting in the title what it relates to since it's only two things (race and accuracy of 'cyberpunk').
Glad they don't venture into the trans topic, though OP could have been a little more genuine by putting in the title what it relates to since it's only two things (race and accuracy of 'cyberpunk').
I mean gamers are feckless idiots and just want to dunk on woke people, even siding with someone who's ideals are wayyyy removed from their own right wing ones.
Let's face it, people are still going to do that. We already have posts claiming he isn't being truthful and just saying these things because of money.
Or maybe, just maybe, the people critizing his work have a weak understanding of cyberpunk? What makes any of these people more of an authority on the subject than someone whose been neck deep in the genre for 30+ years?
Gotta love the way so many of you go instantly negative. He couldn't possibly be telling the truth, he's just saving face because of the money and has no power or input...lol.
Oh no, game development isn't as easy as you think and things change from one day to the next.. oh the horror.. who could even know this, right?
Iorveth from Witcher 2 was going to be in Witcher 3 and was going to have a big role in the game.. guess what, he wasn't in the game after all.. game development is tricky man
I think what a lot of people are doing is saying "this is cyberpunk", or "that isn't cyberpunk". They're making an authoritative argument where there isn't one to make.
They posting an opinion, but they're not really bringing any supporting material to even aid their argument.
The game is based on his work. What are you talking about?
From the video:
He also says that they're "dragging my butt over to Poland several times a year", and that was back in 2013 when this video was uploaded. I think it's safe to say he's got a healthy level of involvement, especially considering his continued presence even all these years later.
I know that just because Pondsmith thinks it's not a problem, doesn't mean it's not, but his reasoning in the OP (about the Animals being called as such because they think they're tough, for example) is sound.
Unplayable classes aside, what do you think feels a lot different than what he's describing? It seems to me like his vision has been translated pretty well, based on the limited bits we've seen of the game.
I'm sorry, I think I'm having a bit of a brainfart. What are you saying?
Just judging by the various interviews he'd done at E3 you can tell he actually knows what the story of the game is and has planned with CD Projekt so they include his own work and their Cyberpunk novels into one timeline. He can talk in depth about what the characters are like. You don't get that if you're not involved in a general basis. It's probably not day to day because he said he saw the E3 demo as a prototype earlier and the E3 version of it blew him away.
I just think some people are apathetic due to CDPR's past PR blunders and have stopped listening entirely, and that's a shame for both CDPR and people who have decided that anything they're involved with is disingenuous.
Another comment of his
Same case as LGBTQ+ situation too, don't act like a superior moral high ground person and doing such an egoist. It's another kind of racist/sexist toward many.
I can't remember the last time when any game had this much controversy around it. Maybe MW2 ?
CDPR has the creative freedom to make their version of Cyberpunk. It is impossible to please everyone. I would prefer if CDPR stopped trying to satisfy everyone and focus on the gameplay.
CDPR has the creative freedom to make their version of Cyberpunk. It is impossible to please everyone. I would prefer if CDPR stopped trying to satisfy everyone and focus on the gameplay.
Another comment of his
lol, that one is the best.
White allies on the internet rush to call the creator a white supremacist, a creator who they clearly know nothing of, who is a black man who won't take their shit.
Imagine my surprise when people jump to ridiculous conclusions wrapped in a veneer of "it's just criticism", real human beings don't respond well to the worst being assumed and them being called serious accusations.
But hey, it's the internet, we'll just move on to trying to ruin someone else's life over misunderstandings next week.
I don't have an issue with the voodoo boys or really anything else in Mike's work. The issue to me is cynicism as to how CDPR will actually deal with these things beyond "here's x from the tabletop game" while failing to showcase/highlight the actual satirization or criticism originating from Mike's original idea.
Gotta get them Internet woke points,
Imagine if these people put the same energy into into real world action as they do forums and twitter, this planet might be survive.
Imagine if people just raised questions in a normal less over the top way on the internet?
It's not wrong to ask something, but my god some of the wild escalations from 0 to 100 are unhealthy.
This is, emphatically, not true; but to be fair, there's always going to be people that complain any time the issue of representation is brought up, here and anywhere else.
Marcin has said in 2012 that Mike was involved, although not daily at the time. It probably changed if Mike is saying he's constantly busy with the game. With that being said, a creator being proud of an adaptation isn't a sign that it's going to be great. Mike Mignola can be proud of Hellboy (2019) but it doesn't change the fact that it was a poor adaptation of his creation.
People gonna use this as another excuse to handwave the transphobia on display.
I've seen it happen in the other threads. Clinging to anything convenient to dismiss
real concerns.
I've seen it happen in the other threads. Clinging to anything convenient to dismiss
real concerns.
They were barely even working on the game at that time. Heavy development began after Blood and Wine shipped.
Title of thread.
Mike Pondsmith's (creator of Cyberpunk 2020) response to some Cyberpunk 2077 criticism (treatment of race representation)
two things mainly. one is the noir aspect he's talking about. 2077 doesn't feel noir at all to me. V as a character seems like he/she is constantly a snarky dick. there is no hopelessness or desperation that's an integral part of a noir feel for me. blade runner, GITS, altered carbon, neuromancer all have that feeling of loneliness and desperation that i don't feel in 2077 but that mike is describing in this video.
the other thing is the aspect of cyberpunk not being about saving the world but yourself. i remember an interview some cdpr writers gave a couple years ago where they said the storyline should always stay street level and sort of low key. something must have changed because now the storyline is about some chip you have in your brain that makes you as the player immortal and the chip containing the secret to immortality or something like that.
Pretty sure the "(treatment of race representation)" part wasn't there to start with
In which case the poster could have read the OP or the link to the source, or posts in this thread. But as I understand it hot takes take precedence.
That's just been added a few minutes ago, it's not helped that some of the people who were dismissing the trans issues are here in favour of this or taking the opportunity to do take thats.
Good answer. I didn't know about that stuff with the chip. Weird. I'll join you in hoping the game still has noir and a lot of that low-key style storytelling, and we simply haven't seen enough of the game yet for that to make itself apparent.
it's not unfair at all to judge something according to standards besides "how authentic is this to that game from 1990?"
also, it's weird to think that CDPR's particular vision of the genre won't be present in their own game just because it takes place within a preexisting universe. that's not how this works
well, no
there are other options: CP2077 didn't actually have to have as interesting an approach to the genre as Mike's own works were in order to earn his approval, he might be emphasizing different things than other people (e.g., a compelling vision of the universe he created vs. CDPR's questionable approach to gender issues), etc., etc.
I know some would like to believe that criticizing CP2077 must also mean shitting on Mike Pondsmith's entire life's work, but holding up Mike as some sort of shield here is lame across multiple levels
You've seen 48 minutes which was probably shown to present more touches of humour/edgyness due to the overall setting/themes of punk. Demo something fun guys!
Demoing something like that is likely to lift a roof of excitement than ruining a dark or heartfelt quest. Not to mention the spoilers involved in that.
TW3 showed CDPR can write sad and dark stories.
So we can either take what Mike said in the video in good faith or do the usual internet escalation of "I have seen 48 minutes of this, Mike must be lying/pretending/exaggerating, I'm an expert in 40~60 hour games after seeing a tiny slice.".
What's got to do with the posters point that people will use this to handwave any minorities concerns? Because it won't matter if it's specifically race in this (though there are other poc in the world and I don't remember it just being white people that were concerned about the Voodoo boys), they will use it against other minorities concerns, that "hey, the almighty creator of Cyberpunk 2020 is fine with it and he know's more about Cyberpunk then you!". There's already people in this thread edging that way and they are posters I recognised in other threads that were playing down minorities concerns including trans posters.
He describes the world 2077 as something close to what he envisioned in his head.
Sorry, but if he is going to make those statements, I will use him as an authority, in lieu of the fact that nobody else is bothering to support their arguments with any sources.
People might not like an aspect of a vision, but they cannot say what is or isn't cyberpunk, or that it isn't true to what 2020 set out to do.
Armchair peeps of any kind are the worst.
If you don't know what you're talking about then shut the fuck up.
Sick of everyone thinking they're so goddamn smart.
If you don't know what you're talking about then shut the fuck up.
Sick of everyone thinking they're so goddamn smart.
I just want people to know that, hey this guy isn't the king of black people you know. Just because he says 1 thing doesn't mean anybody has to agree with it and as you said, concerns shouldn't be downplayed just because he says something
User Banned (1 Week): Misrepresenting concerns surrounding transphobia, inappropriate language
There really isn't much controversy around outside of Era. People were angrier with Watch_Dog 1's downgrade than with this.
Which transphobia? The poster? By that logic one could call GTAV racist, transphobic, and a dozen of other things.
You're portraying this as if Cyberpunk's protagonist proudly proclaims "Fuck fags!" or something.
This is also true, but the post in the OP is referencing referencing a post that effectively said "Mike Pondsmith wouldn't approve" , people are speaking for him and using him as a shield with arguments that he never made for arguments that are factually incorrect.
What? Who the fuck says he's the king of black people? At best there is simply a huge irony in white allies going full Blade Runner on a guy they either didn't know was black or a guy they assumed "Only sold the rights to CDPR and must be their puppet".
He's the man a lot of the internet has been hurling accusations at and he's, in his own way, attempting to defend/clear himself.
I love it how often on this forum it's fine to hurl shit at people, but if they try and explain themselves it suddenly turns into "Who made you the king of/representative of all your people?". As if the whole human race exists in a binary tribe of "I think this, my enemy must think that". 1 or 0.
You cannot win. You say nothing, you're complicit in all the wild accusations, you say something, you're either attempting to speak for everyone or your own knowledge of your own project is still beaten by outsiders who've seen 48 minutes.
If you're trying to figure out how involved Mike Pondsmith is with C2027 based on whether "a black man" would co-sign certain choices you find either despisable or desirable that's... just stright up race science.
Why does this always get said when someone has something positive to say about Cyberpunk 2077? I feel like these types of comments imply that negative opinions are inherently more correct, and they ironically try to handwave other's interpretation of events.
You have the right to be genuinely offended by something, or the right to think something shouldn't fly. But that doesn't mean that those opinions aren't worthy of criticism either. This is supposed to be a conversation after all, not one group dictating how something should or shouldn't be. Which is why comments from black people or trans people who find no issue with the representation should carry equal weight, with neither type of comment being used to suppress the other.
I mean sure I'm not saying that was right. I'm just saying from an argument standpoint, I don't really care about what he approves of or not.
Like he may very well know what he means to interpret by having the gang call themselves animals, but he also should know that the audience for the games is predominantly white and they likely aren't going to get that meaning and will take it the obvious negative way
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