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PeskyToaster

Member
Oct 27, 2017
15,314
When we're talking about market share, Microsoft being the parent company absolutely has no bearing. You cant just shrug off Sony nearing 50%+ market share in the console space with "but Microsoft is a bigger company", thats silly.

The same reason we wouldn't say Stadia and Luna are bigger than PlayStation.
Amazon and Google aren't throwing around their weight like Microsoft is though. I'm sure part of the reason for this deal is to avoid one of those players from entering the game by buying one of the few big publishers. A lot of Microsoft's moves these past several years have definitely been to stave off potential efforts from companies the size of Google, Amazon, or Apple rather than competing with Sony or Nintendo. I think the three of Microsoft, Sony, and Nintendo are quite comfortable in their niche but I don't think its an accident that all this is happening after big pushes from companies like Amazon, Google, Facebook and Apple.

I think being too laser focused on the console gaming niche makes you lose focus on the bigger picture. You see something like Stadia bombing and write of Google but I think Microsoft was definitely wary of it (and similar projects) and future attempts.
 

platocplx

2020 Member Elect
Member
Oct 30, 2017
36,072
Lol… this isn't what the original context of that was. The whole point was someone suggesting that Microsoft "could still buy Sony" as a way to dismiss someone saying that Microsoft just wants to compete with Sony who is #1. Not that Xbox couldn't buy ABK without MSFT. But keep calling stuff you dont even know the context to, disingenuous…
you have been saying this same thing early in this thread dude. Like is this NOT YOU? Its an absolutely ridiculous premise. Xbox didnt generate the 80+ billion in cash for any of their acquistions. You could even have an argument IF they did. but this size of acquistions in at least 3-5X times more than any of the cash they have generated.

Microsoft being large has no bearing on Xbox. Hell, there were calls from shareholders to shut down Xbox in 2014.

These deals should absolutely be seen from the perspective of Xbox and not Microsoft. At least when it comes to console exclusivity. Of course Activision also includes Blizzard and King which is more a play on PC/mobile and is more an initiative by "Microsoft Gaming" than Xbox.
 

cyrribrae

Chicken Chaser
Member
Jan 21, 2019
12,723
Woah, this thread has moved fast haha. Great read and amazing work as always Idas! Those Microsoft lawyers were not pulling any punches, huh XD haha. I hesitate to even call this standard legal stuff. Microsoft here is actually pretty aggressively going after Sony's arguments and their overall position. I think their response to Sony has far more bite than Sony's initial objections/concerns. The relevant bits have already been quoted and I haven't had time to read the discussion beyond the first page. But.. yea interesting stuff.

(And personally, I do think the MS answers address the concerns pretty comprehensively - including for the big question mark for whether or not gaming subscriptions should get treated differently from other forms of digital distribution. The "Players can always just skip Game pass" always felt a little bit disingenuous to me... but... this forum has shown me that plenty of people feel exactly this way about Game Pass and other subscriptions. And so, the fact that every game on Game Pass can be purchased traditionally outside of the subscription is going to be key + is probably a pretty good argument against the idea of Game Pass exclusives. Granted, I haven't heard many people every bring that up, except Brad Sams [just speculating IIRC] I think. )

"A posição isolada da Sony pode ser provavelmente explicada pelo fato de que
a oferta de jogos por assinatura da Microsoft, o Xbox Game Pass ("Game Pass"), foi lançada
como uma resposta competitiva da Microsoft ao insucesso do Xbox na "guerra de consoles" e
à necessidade de ofertar aos jogadores valor adicional em relação ao modelo "buy-to-play"
tradicional."

They say they didnt have success in the console war, yes. "Failure" is too strong of a word though, they could have said it in portuguese if they wanted.
Heh, thanks. Maybe I should start using "Insuccess" instead of failure :(
 

Patrese86

Member
Jun 6, 2021
883
User Warned: Platform Warring
This just reads as won't somebody help the poor underdogs that's is Microsoft. Bless there cotton socks.
 

Tigerfish419

Member
Oct 28, 2021
4,518
Cold War joined the top 20 best selling games of all time in the US after just 2 months. It was a breakaway success which is why Treyarch supported it for so long.

Vanguard definitely dropped the ball but it's really no different than when Infinite Warfare was at its lowest point.

Damn, haven't really been paying attention to sales but I though it was doing bad. Can agree on Vangaurd though.
 

Deleted member 93062

Account closed at user request
Banned
Mar 4, 2021
24,767
you have been saying this same thing early in this thread dude. Like is this NOT YOU? Its an absolutely ridiculous premise. Xbox didnt generate the 80+ billion in cash for any of their acquistions. You could even have an argument IF they did. but this size of acquistions in at least 3-5X times more than any of the cash they have generated.
Again you're missing the point. I'm saying you cant just dismiss Xbox's positioning in the console market with "Microsoft is large". Which was the origin of that whole message.

The argument was never that Xbox could afford it themselves. I even admitted that this is a broader play by Microsoft that also gives them more presence in PC/mobile that dont really even benefit Xbox.
 

Starlatine

533.489 paid youtubers cant be wrong
Member
Oct 28, 2017
30,422
Heh, thanks. Maybe I should start using "Insuccess" instead of failure :(

I dont know if you're being serious but yes, theres a difference of the words in portuguese. Saying you didnt have success (não teve sucesso) is kind of a vague statement that doesnt say anything and sounds more like you feel you dont have part of the blame. Saying it was a failure (fracasso) its pretty clear about how bad it was and kinda admitting guilt. It's a strong word.
 

Tigerfish419

Member
Oct 28, 2021
4,518
How many mayor players are left?

AAA publishers ?

  1. Valve
  2. EA
  3. Ubisoft
  4. Sega
  5. Sony
  6. Nintendo
  7. Tencent
  8. Netease
  9. Bandai Namco
  10. Square Enix
  11. Nexon
  12. Netmarble
  13. Konami
  14. Embracer Group
  15. Capcom
  16. WB
  17. Paradox Interactive
  18. Koei Tecmo
  19. Apple
  20. Amazon
To name a few

Edit: the top 16 major publishers have pulled in 81B (not Apple or Amazon of course because that number would be higher)
 

cyrribrae

Chicken Chaser
Member
Jan 21, 2019
12,723
In this case, it's a win-win deal. 3rd party games sell really poorly on Xbox these days if you're not on the Game Pass. For indies, it's worse, either you're on GP Day One and you cash your check from Microsoft or you won't exist at all on release.
Like you mean indies and third parties sell poorly on Xbox without GP? Or just in general?

Cuz if true, wouldn't that be the opposite of a win-win? Like yes, they get some amount of money from Sony, but now their game doesn't do well on Xbox and doesn't get the marketing on that platform. Unless these blocking deal agreements are lucrative on a similar scale as Game Pass deals (in which case, hell yea, alright why not). Sony doesn't actually gain much of anything, just loses money. And Xbox obviously is losing out here because you'd only need a blocking agreement if they were interested in the property in the first place.

I mean, you surely know better than me regardless. But the logic does seem a bit odd.

www.theverge.com

Microsoft claims Sony pays for “blocking rights” to keep games off Xbox Game Pass

The claims were made in legal documents to a Brazilian regulator.
Explosive lol.

I dont know if you're being serious but yes, theres a difference of the words in portuguese. Saying you didnt have success (não teve sucesso) is kind of a vague statement that doesnt say anything and sounds more like you feel you dont have part of the blame. Saying it was a failure (fracasso) its pretty clear about how bad it was and kinda admitting guilt. It's a strong word.
Oh yea, makes sense. I appreciated the translation and context clarification. I just saw insuceso and thought that was a fun word to fake cognate over to English. Not even sure if I was taking the right word/translation, tbh heh.
 

platocplx

2020 Member Elect
Member
Oct 30, 2017
36,072
Again you're missing the point. I'm saying you cant just dismiss Xbox's positioning in the console market with "Microsoft is large". Which was the origin of that whole message.

The argument was never that Xbox could afford it themselves. I even admitted that this is a broader play by Microsoft that also gives them more presence in PC/mobile that dont really even benefit Xbox.
You can dismiss it. MS is Xbox. Xbox is MS just as much as SIE is Sony and Sony is SIE.
 

Dabanton

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,913
Cold War joined the top 20 best selling games of all time in the US after just 2 months. It was a breakaway success which is why Treyarch supported it for so long.

Vanguard definitely dropped the ball but it's really no different than when Infinite Warfare was at its lowest point.

It's both hilarious and terrifying that even with Vanguard not 'doing well' it was still the second best selling Playstation game of 2021
 

JuicyPlayer

Member
Feb 8, 2018
7,321
You know what would be a good competitor to Call of Duty that I would play in a heartbeat? Socom , and not the Call of Dutyfied Socom 4 that they attempted. They need to make a more modern and accessible version of Socom 2.
 
Dec 9, 2018
21,098
New Jersey
Consoles are the biggest part of the equation especially when we're talking about Call of Duty. Sony isn't talking about Candy Crush when they talk about how Microsoft even having them (not even making exclusive) is anti competitive.
Sony's focusing on Call of Duty because their primary revenue from console gaming comes from third-party releases like Call of Duty. I think their argument that it would completely cripple the PS brand is desperate to say the least. I'm talking about how Microsoft wants to become Tencent big in both the PC and Mobile space, in addition to their cloud solution. This is the broad picture that will absolutely matter when MS makes their next big acquisition in the gaming sector after ABK closes.
 

00Quan[T]

Member
May 12, 2022
2,989
  1. Valve
  2. EA
  3. Ubisoft
  4. Sega
  5. Sony
  6. Nintendo
  7. Tencent
  8. Netease
  9. Bandai Namco
  10. Square Enix
  11. Nexon
  12. Netmarble
  13. Konami
  14. Embracer Group
  15. Capcom
  16. WB
  17. Paradox Interactive
  18. Koei Tecmo
  19. Apple
  20. Amazon
To name a few

Edit: the top 16 major publishers have pulled in 81B (not Apple or Amazon of course because that number would be higher)

My list got destroyed lol.
 

lexony

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,518
I don't have a horse in the race but CoD being owned by MS isn't different than many huge games that are PC-only. Sony's "blocking rights" against Game Pass is just another form of exclusivity agreement that has existed for decades.
It is a bogus argument when you consider that when a third party publisher is making an exclusive deal with a console maker then it is agreement by two different companies. While owning IP and releasing to their preferred platforms is only the decision by the publisher. I mean Microsoft can say now that they continue to support PS platforms but there is no contract which is saying that they've to do that.
I think MS should be able to buy Activision but I don't think that their arguments are strong there.
 

onesvenus

Member
May 27, 2018
394
In this case, it's a win-win deal. 3rd party games sell really poorly on Xbox these days if you're not on the Game Pass. For indies, it's worse, either you're on GP Day One and you cash your check from Microsoft or you won't exist at all on release.
Do we really have numbers of Xbox selling poorly? Can you share an example of Xbox vs Playstation game sales and compute the sales vs the market share on each platform?
 

Deleted member 93062

Account closed at user request
Banned
Mar 4, 2021
24,767
Sony's focusing on Call of Duty because their primary revenue from console gaming comes from third-party releases like Call of Duty. I think their argument that it would completely cripple the PS brand is desperate to say the least. I'm talking about how Microsoft wants to become Tencent big in both the PC and Mobile space, in addition to their cloud solution. This is the broad picture that will absolutely matter when MS makes their next big acquisition in the gaming sector after ABK closes.
This whole thread is about Microsoft's response to Sony. Sony isn't arguing about Microsoft's push into mobile and PC. They're arguing against Game Pass and having Call of Duty.
 

Tigerfish419

Member
Oct 28, 2021
4,518
Take 2
Annapurna Interactive

Lol how did I forget Take Two

My list got destroyed lol.

haha


Okay, let me break my NDA for you ;)

No offence but how could a (going off your tag) community support person know the ins and outs of the entire business model for Game Pass and Xbox game sales, again not trying to be rude but you don't even work at Microsoft/Xbox either so how would you even be privy to that infomation.
 

.exe

Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,241
That blocking rights stuff is some real petty shit.
 
Last edited:

MadMike

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,433
MS's argument that they're actually the underdog because they have the smallest market share in the console space is completely disingenuous. The second largest company in the US (third in the world) is trying to buy the biggest video game publisher in the US (second in the world if you include Tencent) and handwaving away concerns simply because MS is currently selling the fewest consoles is nonsensical.
 

IIFloodyII

Member
Oct 26, 2017
23,979
paying for blocking rights? TIHI
They are part of the multi million dollar marketing deals, they have all sorts clauses that exclude promoting other platforms. It's pretty basic stuff really, just evolving with the times. They can go all the way from really petty minor stuff like never showing the other versions pre release, all the way up to rights of first refusal or excluding the release on competing services for X amount of time.
 

platocplx

2020 Member Elect
Member
Oct 30, 2017
36,072
You're both right but your failing to acknowledge the point Sullivan is making within the context of the console market and Xbox's position and market share relative to Playstation's.
It still would not be considered in this sense, the DOJ already showed this looking at Facebooks Aggressive moves within the VR Space. They ask the question you have all the resources to make your own thing. Thats exactly what every govt scrutinizing this would say you have 70 billion dollars you can't tell us you couldnt invest that in yourselves to build x y z.

No one in their right mind would consider that for conglomerates, that goes for Sony and others larger or smaller than them in that sense. Its a redherring argument that really does anything when we are talking about multi billion and trillion dollar companies With cash reserves larger than some countries.
 

00Quan[T]

Member
May 12, 2022
2,989
It is real and Sony isn't the only one to add these clauses to their contracts with third party

Sure, they're competing in their onw way AND they have way more leverage with developers since their marketshare is bigger, most of the time, MS doesn't even get the chance to make these deals.

Anyway, I guess I'm running in circles here, all of this just shows how competition is being brought to Sony and challenging their position. Some are just afraid Sony will cease to exist for some reason, no they won't, moreover they'll acquire even more studios like they've been doing and find their onw niche in gaming like Nintendo.
 

Trup1aya

Literally a train safety expert
Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,364
Sony never undercut the competition to the extent MS is doing right now -- they could never afford to. At the end of the day they still offered the same product at the same price.

Microsoft isn't undercutting the competition.

They still sell games at the same average price as the rest of the industry. So it's patently false to suggest that MS doesn't offer the same products at the same price.

Beyond that, At the same time they offer a service that allows players to rent games digitally. Keep in mind, Sony also does this via PS plus and PS now.

Beyond all that, it's presumptuous to assume that Sony can't afford to compete with MS on this subscription offering, considering they are the market leader, and there are other subscription models popping up across the industry. Sony just doesn't want to because they've found immense success through traditional means and would rather combat market disruption than compete in a changing landscape.
 

Deleted member 23046

Account closed at user request
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
6,876
It's also very funny to me that Microsoft is trying to spend this much money on Activision only to go "nah, Call of Duty isn't that important, you guys". If it wasn't that important, you wouldn't be spending more money on a buyout than any gaming company in history has ever spent.
Because like with Linkedin, GitHub or Minecraft, they mainly bought customers of a product more than the product itself and these buyout weren't made to favor their Surface hardware. It's MICROSOFT GAMING for a reason now - Xbox is a still the strongest brand in it but a division inside.
 

Deleted member 93062

Account closed at user request
Banned
Mar 4, 2021
24,767
It still would not be considered in this sense, the DOJ already showed this looking at Facebooks Aggressive moves within the VR Space. They ask the question you have all the resources to make your own thing. Thats exactly what every govt scrutinizing this would say you have 70 billion dollars you can't tell us you couldnt invest that in yourselves to build x y z.

No one in their right mind would consider that for conglomerates, that goes for Sony and others larger or smaller than them in that sense. Its a redherring argument that really does anything when we are talking about multi billion and trillion dollar companies With cash reserves larger than some countries.
Facebook is massive in the VR space, they're nearly a monopoly. How are these the same?

Your comparison only makes sense if Xbox had the market share that Oculus Quest has in their respective spaces.

Even then… FTC staff were against trying to block that deal so the comparison makes absolutely no sense at all.
 

Frieza

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,850
They can sell Elder Scrolls on other platforms & still have it on Game Pass, just like I'm sure they're going to do with Call of Duty going forward. I'm sure going to push Game Pass HARD during that time as well.

It's legitimately a great value. Having Elder Scrolls & Call of Duty on Game Pass, even though it's also on PlayStation, is still a huge threat to Sony. Losing them completely would be even worse, which is way they're taking such a hard stance.

I just wonder what the logic is for Microsoft at the end of the day: Does everything other than Call of Duty go exclusive, or is it a case by case basis?
ES6 was already confirmed as an Xbox ecosystem exclusive. Outside of COD they'll likely make everything exclusive they only mentioned three games (COD, Candy Crush, and WOW) as the primary revenue generators of ABK the rest are insignificant

www.gamesindustry.biz

The Elder Scrolls 6 confirmed as Xbox and PC exclusive

Xbox boss Phil Spencer has said that the upcoming The Elder Scrolls 6 title will be a console and PC exclusive.Speaking…
 

Dabanton

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,913
Because like with Linkedin, GitHub or Minecraft, they mainly bought customers of a product more than the product itself and these buyout weren't made to favor their Surface hardware. It's MICROSOFT GAMING for a reason now - Xbox is a still the strongest brand in it but a division inside.

He got thread banned so he cant reply lol.

Thanks to whoever did it btw
 

Deleted member 22750

Oct 28, 2017
13,267
Gamepass having games blocked from being on the service by Sony is fucking trash

Isn't this the type of action that pushes Microsoft to buy more developers
 
OP
OP
Idas

Idas

Antitrusting By Keyboard
Member
Mar 20, 2022
2,025
Thanks again for the feedback! :)

By the way, I didn't update the title with this (Claims Sony is paying to block games from Gamepass). I guess a mod did it to avoid threads with this subject, seeing that some sites are focusing on that. So, no problem.

media is going to quote your work in the dozens now, like they did last time, maybe you should contact some of them and put your next post on their page for a bit of cash, you are very knowledgable about this stuff and parsing through this probably took a bunch of time, you deserve some payment and there's clearly a lot places willing to profit from your work

No worries! I would have read these documents anyway, just out of curiosity or for work. After all, my job is in this field and I like reading legal things :p If they are about the video game industry, even more xD

But yeah, some sites acting like they are the origin of the info is like 🤨 At least say that it comes from Resetera.
 

Taleboules

Community Manager at Light Brick Studio
Verified
Jun 11, 2021
98
Paying extra to block games from coming to Game Pass, that's the most Sony shit ever.
If you close a marketing deal with a 3rd party, you spend millions on marketing to promote the game on your console. You need to be sure your partner is not going to close a deal behind your back to put the release game, you spend million on marketing, for "free" on your concurrent subscription service.
You don't have to approve, but you need to understand the logic behind.