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BTW both Psychonauts 2 and Myst have stuttering issues. The first is apparently getting a patch next week, didn't heard anything for Myst but it stutter like crazy (I guess is fine on Steam?).
It's purely the devs' fault that multiple games launched with older builds just on Game Pass and not on any other store? Microsoft's Store policies/pipeline couldn't possibly have some impact on that? Not at all?
Wish journalists would push Phil more on the PC stuff when interviewing him etc, instead of asking the same old obvious questions. This stuff is actively hurting Game Pass growth.
Psychonauts 2 is another one that has shader comp stutters in the Game Pass version but not in the Steam version, and whilst they're actively working on fixing the GP version, it doesn't take away from the day one disparity again.
Psychonauts 2 is another one that has shader comp stutters in the Game Pass version but not in the Steam version, and whilst they're actively working on fixing the GP version, it doesn't take away from the day one disparity again.
This isn't entirely correct, they SELL those games, there is no quality control on MS end and they don't enforce anything to make the games they sells barely playable, read more here:
Why are Game Pass versions of PC games such a mess? Microsoft - PC
We all know that Xbox app for Windows is a total piece of shit. But what's even worse not only the app is broken but the builds of the games the app uses are also broken. Right now I've tried to play two games but I simply couldn't. art of rally - even during the settings screen I couldn't set...
www.resetera.com
Microsoft's certification process for the Windows Store is no different than any other platform. If you're submitting to multiple platforms, Windows Store is the least of your worries.
So if something is missing from the Windows Store build specifically, but the same game is also submitted to other consoles, then the certification itself isn't responsible.
Especially if you're using the GDK on both Windows and Xbox, then outside of a couple of platform specific behaviours, it's pretty much simply a change in compile target.
I think I used in Wolfenstein: Youngblood?
booted up The Medium quickly and it for sure has it and it works
It may have been a UWP thing, before AppX, then. I seem to recall people saying that they couldn't use DLSS with the store - and that's why it was "left out" of so many games.
I don't want to sound apologetic but I don't mind those issues, if it is a game on GamePass because I basically spend no money on it and I can wait for the games to be fixed.
Would be different if I bought the games though.
I know that that's a flawed logic, nobody have to point this out to me. 😁
Would be different if I bought the games though.
I know that that's a flawed logic, nobody have to point this out to me. 😁
Certification process doesn't deal with the specific issues mentioned in/by the OP.
This process was clearly explained previously here for consoles and you can expect how it will be for the PC stores (if any)
www.resetera.com
This process was clearly explained previously here for consoles and you can expect how it will be for the PC stores (if any)
Indie Dev Rami Ismail explains the console certification process
Rami's Twitter thread in text form since it's pretty long: Thought this might be a useful explainer with the way the discourse is going at the moment.
www.resetera.com
The Starmancer one was very baffling because i bought it on Steam and my friend played it on Gamepass and he had a slew of problems i never ran into.
I also got updates before him. I don't bother with Gamepass PC anymore due to it potentially destroying my HDD and this.
I also got updates before him. I don't bother with Gamepass PC anymore due to it potentially destroying my HDD and this.
OP
OP
So what is your theory on why three different games by different developers in the same month have missing features and bugs that exist in the Windows store builds and not in the Epic, GOG or Steam builds?
Or why patches that release immediately when the developer finishes them on Epic, Steam and GOG take weeks to show up on the Microsoft store?
In an effort to avoid breaking many NDAs here, none of this is on the platforms / stores.
None at all.
None of these issues are caused by any platforms and stores.
None at all.
None of these issues are caused by any platforms and stores.
When is Microsoft going to stop using that weird freaking file format for their games and just use regular exe files?
Like every other sane store.
Like every other sane store.
"what specific things need to be in the build"
I'm not sure what you mean by this but I'm pretty sure it's none of the things mentioned in the OP; missing features, non-working graphical settings, bugs, performance issues, missing content etc etc..
It would probably require specific things to function with their backend services, outside of that I don't think there is much they have a say over and they shouldn't.
They don't control what build a developer creates.
Certification process doesn't deal with the specific issues mentioned in/by the OP.
This process was clearly explained previously here for consoles and you can expect how it will be for the PC stores (if any)
Indie Dev Rami Ismail explains the console certification process
Rami's Twitter thread in text form since it's pretty long: Thought this might be a useful explainer with the way the discourse is going at the moment.
I think you're misinterpreting the argument. People aren't complaining about certification failing to find these issues. They are talking about how certification impacts the timeline of projects and speculating that the additional requirement to put patches through certification may result in devs delaying or scrapping those patches for the MS Store version.
Consider this hypothetical situation:
Your game is 6 weeks from release, and the VR feature is not working. You think that you can make a patch to fix it in 4 weeks. However, you also need to allocate 4 weeks for the patched version to go through certification for the MS Store. Since you don't have time to create the patch and get it through cert in time for release, you just remove the VR feature from the MS Store version. For storefronts that do not require cert on patches, you have enough time to patch the game, so it launches with the VR feature.
Well fuck, I have downloaded the ascent and was about to get psychonauts 2 from the gamepass for PC. Hopefully all this will get fixed after my vacation.
Thanks for your input! That's what makes the most sense.
OP
OP
So the fact that many games have bugs and missing features only on the Microsoft store and no other PC storefronts has nothing to do with Microsoft's store policies or certification processes at all? And the fact that patches that are released immediately on all other PC storefronts take days or weeks to show up on Microsoft's store also has nothing to do with Microsoft's store policies, certification process or submission guidelines?
But there is a reason for it... but there is an NDA and no one is allowed to talk about why all these issues only happen with games and patches released on the Microsoft store and no other PC storefronts?
Yeah people seem to be misunderstanding the issue. The time for cert means if the game is coming in hot you can't get the version that other storefront's get onto the MS store at the same time. So the Steam version might be on a newer patch version that is fixed. The MS Store version of that patch is delayed though by the cert requirements.
OP
OP
What is your theory on why so many games on the Microsoft stores are different versions that have serious bugs that don't exist on other PC storefronts?
There are many more games on the Microsoft store that have bugs that don't exist on other storefronts other than the ones I listed.
Is the implication here that all the developers of all these different games just happened to randomly screw up the build they sent to Microsoft but somehow sent a more stable to build to every other storefront at release?
Or is the implication that the developers purposefully send buggy versions of the game to the Microsoft store but send better versions to all other PC storefronts?
Because the hard cold truth is that some companies don't give a shit to keep all of their releases aligned.
OP
OP
According to the DICE developer who just posted there are no cert requirements that are different for the MS store than any other PC storefront. And no cert requirements for patch deployment.
So it is apparently a big mystery why only the MS store has broken builds of games and takes days if not weeks for these games to get patches that all other PC storefronts get on day 1.
Weird wonder why Brian Fargo the leader of inXile an MS owned studio tweeted about the Gamepass version of Wasteland 3 going thru cert then.
Just another example of why PC Game Pass is a lesser service than Xbox Game Pass. They just seem to get some occasional big PC-only games to cover up the many issues and hope that's enough, but the lack of interest by many devs and pubs to keeping those PC Game Pass versions up to snuff is sad. Even Devolver can't be bothered to put achievements in their PC Game Pass games despite them having Steam and Xbox achievements.
She didn't say the requirements were different, just that the issues have nothing to do with the cert processes. Be careful to not make people confused.
See above.
OP
OP
Why has this never happened between versions on the Epic store and Steam? I can't think of a single example where developers had an issue keeping releases aligned between those two storefronts, but I can point out a dozen instances of the Windows Store version not aligning with the Steam or Epic versions.
If the store requirements for submission are exactly the same for all storefronts, why do developers seem to consistently screw up the release submitted to the Microsoft store and not on any other storefronts?
I stopped buying third party games from GOG and Origin because they were often forgotten behind. Cannot think of more specific examples other than one of the Divinity games on GOG and one of the Batman games on Origin. But this was years ago, no idea how things are now.
OP
OP
If anything this has made me more confused.
We have one developer here saying that certification doesn't cause patches to be delayed. Then we have a tweet from Brian Fargo saying that their patch is out now on all PC storefronts but is waiting in Microsoft certification and won't be released until later on the Windows Store/Gamepass storefront, which directly contradicts what the developer just said here. That tweet is literally saying that the patch they released immediately on all other PC storefronts is not released on the Windows Store storefront because it is in Microsoft certification.
And now you are saying that I am causing confusion with the issue?
AppX has inherited basically every issue UWP had and as far as the end user is concerned is an identical tyre fire.
And yeah, we're now got two examples of Microsoft-owned developers stating that patches for their Windows 10 versions being delayed due to certification, so I don't think anyone can claim Win Store certification isn't causing delays.
Cert does not delay updates. What you as a developer / publisher do is make sure to align all of your supported platforms. You do not publish an update to one platform while the rest of the platforms are still under testing, whether that testing is done internally or in a first party. You never do that. It is a terrible process to do so.
If you submit an update to Sony on Monday, to Microsoft on Tuesday, and you have the update ready to go on Sunday for PC, you do not release the PC update until further testing is done across the other platforms. You align for the update to release on Wednesday or Thursday, or something similar.
Companies with strong release management methodologies and processes take this into account. Companies that just think they are too smart to not align releases of updates across all their supported platforms usually end up in this mess.
As an example, even though we can release an update for a BF game on Origin at any time we want, we do not do so until the same update is ready for all other platforms. It would otherwise be irresponsible and it would cause even more of a mess in terms of reliability and telemetry data.
Why should I suffer with a broken product longer than I should simply because other people will feel left out because they're playing on a platform that delays it because they feel they know better than the people making the game.
I feel like one of the strengths in many games I play is patches that can come out literally minutes after bugs are pointed out. All the way from dota to luck be a landlord this happens. This just sounds like a great argument to never launch on the windows store to me.
OP
OP
Sorry, but when you reply to me can you actually put what you are responding to in the quote, and not delete it and put three dots?
I really have no idea which statement of mine you are responding to.
What is your take on the Brian Fargo tweet where he directly says that all other PC storefronts have the patch, but the MS Store version is delayed because it is in Microsoft certification?
Yes, because your first question was about missing features: "So the fact that many games have bugs and missing features only on the Microsoft store and no other PC storefronts has nothing to do with Microsoft's store policies or certification processes at all?" Which elenarie said yes. Your reply gave another idea: "According to the DICE developer who just posted there are no cert requirements that are different for the MS store than any other PC storefront." It might have not been intentional, but it made people confused. It was just a heads-up.
As for the second question which she also said "yes" ("And the fact that patches that are released immediately on all other PC storefronts take days or weeks to show up on Microsoft's store also has nothing to do with Microsoft's store policies, certification process or submission guidelines?"), you usually submit your build to every platform at the same time. So, while they can definitely release later (as shown with Wasteland 3), they are not the cause of things not being fixed or missing. They were submitted at the same time as Steam's release. Though I will say it again in case it needs more clarity, I do agree this slow process isn't beneficial to us.
Unfortunately, the Microsoft Store version of some games isn't a high priority for some developers. And, before I get that bizarre accusation that I'm saying devs are lazy by that other person again, I'll say this: I understand it's a complex issue with a lot of factors involved that might make it hard to justify internally what to focus on a platform with not as many users. Microsoft needs to improve the Store's experience for games to help alleviate this problem.
I agree. But I much prefer if we focus on that because it's more than just a term. Some people have the idea that Windows 11 will be better because it doesn't require UWP, while that hasn't been the case for games since 2019. If folks understand AppX and the WindowsApps folder will still cause issues, maybe we'll get changes there.
OP
OP
So you agree that Microsoft's certification process can cause lengthy delays in a patch being deployed?
The DICE developer said the exact opposite, that certification causes no delays in patch deployment.
It's been a massive bummer. Wanted to play The Ascent, ran like ass on my 3080. Wanted to play Psychonauts 2, again weird peformance issues (random FPS drops from 144fps to 60) that should not be happening on such a beefy PC.
OP
OP
I had no idea that the Steam version didn't have the stuttering issues that I've been seeing on the Gamepass version until I saw it in this thread.
This issue with MS Store releases is much more dire than I realized when I made the thread.
Let me attempt to translate:
FACT: Adding a certification process will delay a patch.
OPINION: Companies ought to release their patches on all platforms simultaneously, even if it means adding an artificial delay for some platforms where the patch is ready earlier due to lack of cert requirements.
OPINION STATED AS FACT: "Microsoft's certification policy has nothing to do with patches being delayed compared to Steam" (Because I think they should have sat on the Steam patch rather than releasing it as soon as it was ready).
If a patch gets submitted to Microsoft cert, and Microsoft cert finds an issue with the patch in their specific cert testing that causes them to reject the patch, that's not Microsoft's problem. If a publisher submits a patch to multiple platforms, and Microsoft's cert testing is the only one to find a rejection-worthy issue that might cause a delay, it's not Microsoft's problem if the publisher decides to push the patch out to the other platforms where it did pass certification while delaying the Microsoft patch.
Because it does not. You do not release a patch as soon as you are done making one. There is an entire release management process that needs to follow that, in addition to the patch first being tested by your LiveQA team in the production enviroments.
You stage a patch, then make sure everything works well across all supported platforms, and then you release it. So weird having to argue this. 😛