When I've spot checked this personally in the past, they've been exercising their right with us. Admittedly, probably 5-6 years since I last audited it as I've just taken it as a given.
I have a new task for the week I guess.
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Microsoft filed a statement in support of Epic's request to keep access to the Apple SDK for its Unreal Engine
- Thread starter dex3108
- Start date
When I've spot checked this personally in the past, they've been exercising their right with us. Admittedly, probably 5-6 years since I last audited it as I've just taken it as a given.
I have a new task for the week I guess.
Epic broke the rules despite having a duty to ensure that they can provide their engine for for their customers.
Apple are not specifically targeting UE but rather saying that Epic as a company are in violation of the TOS they agreed to so their access to Apple development software will be revoked. It shouldn't matter that they are a middleware vendor, that should not afford anyone the ability to make up their own rules - they should have thought of that before this action. Microsoft and Epic would equally be as litigious if someone was breaking their TOS.
Giving Epic as a company access to continue to develop for iOS etc would send a message that it doesn't matter if you violate your agreements, you can still continue to develop. Unjustifiable would be if Apple had just decided to block Epic because they were vocal about App Store policies for example and that would likely constitute an abuse of their position. As it stands Apple are simply enforcing their rules like they would any other developer who broke the TOS they agreed.
Like them or not, Apple hold the cards here and I think Epic winning sends the message that it's okay to ignore your contractual obligations.
Apple are not specifically targeting UE but rather saying that Epic as a company are in violation of the TOS they agreed to so their access to Apple development software will be revoked. It shouldn't matter that they are a middleware vendor, that should not afford anyone the ability to make up their own rules - they should have thought of that before this action. Microsoft and Epic would equally be as litigious if someone was breaking their TOS.
Giving Epic as a company access to continue to develop for iOS etc would send a message that it doesn't matter if you violate your agreements, you can still continue to develop. Unjustifiable would be if Apple had just decided to block Epic because they were vocal about App Store policies for example and that would likely constitute an abuse of their position. As it stands Apple are simply enforcing their rules like they would any other developer who broke the TOS they agreed.
Like them or not, Apple hold the cards here and I think Epic winning sends the message that it's okay to ignore your contractual obligations.
Apple is def doing it a little out of spite in response to this bizarre marketing campaign set up by Epic. But the fact that Epic is sticking to their guns and have no qualms about having their own customers being held hostage in this squabble says a lot more about epic. They prefer going on a broad marketing campaign dragging their own customers and players into battle who have no business being there, instead of dealing with this in a normal company VS company legal fight.
Epic can stop this and let the court decide on an outcome but instead they prefer a smear campaign and mob justice.
edit: In the end its epics responsibility to their own clients to keep the engine functional on certain platforms by having a normal relationship with said platform holders. but instead they don't give a fuck and gladly let their clients suffer while epic has the finances for a long legal battle. I am suprised none of their clients are dragging epic to court for this mess.
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They would certainly end their retaliation at removing offending games. They most definitely wouldnt throttle Unreal Engine on xbox, lol
I agree. His argument is flawed.
One could argue however that in the bigger picture, there is a certain interest from MS for Apple to lose the entire case - since the end result (opening up the app store) might also allow xcloud on the store.
Apple is not throttling the Unreal Engine, it is fine. The only problem is that there is a chance it could break as Apple updates their OS, and since Epic aren't developing for iOS anymore, it would be more difficult for them fix any such potential problem. As long as there is no incompatibilities introduced the engine will work just fine.
I really do wonder why people keep calling it "retaliation". Look forget just for a second you hate Apple or like Epic or hate Epic and Like Apple. Basically Epic communicated to Apple that they are in dispute and as such will NO LONGER follow Apples Terms of service. Now please tell me what company would continue doing business with another company that basically said "we still want your support and to make use of your services but we are not going to obey your rules". This is not Apple retaliating this is Apple protecting itself and it's service from a rogue operator that has clearly sent communications to the effect that they are going to ignore all rules regarding the market place/
Yup seconded a fantastic break down by someone that actually knows the law. Only slight complaint is his videos go on a wee bit long but I guess that comes with the territory.
Whatever, you want to call it, MS would steer clear of any scenario where it would be difficult to fix Unreal Engine compatibility issues.
Apple has handled marketplace violations differently before. Removing Fortnite has adequately protected Apple from these rogue practices.
No removing fortnite did not "adequately" protect apple from Rogue practices because allowing Epic to continue having access to the SDK puts Apple in a vulnerable position. Seriously think for a second if you ran a company and another company said to you "I am going to do whatever I like in the market place you run and I want you to support me and not do anything about it" would YOU do business with that company or would you think "you know I better protect myself here and not have any dealings with this company".
MS won't disable their dev tools on windows. Apple has a problem with Fortnite keep it to Fortnite. Just shows that Apple is getting out of control these days...
The Verge is saying Forza is at risk if Apple blocks Unreal Engine, but Forza isn't even on Mac/iOS, how would this affect it?
https://www.theverge.com/2020/8/23/21397369/epic-apple-fortnite-lawsuit-ios-microsoft-developer-tax
https://www.theverge.com/2020/8/23/21397369/epic-apple-fortnite-lawsuit-ios-microsoft-developer-tax
Have we all seen that the contracts between Apple and Epic have terms that say either party can back out of the agreement if it ever becomes inconvenient? Epic's lawsuit and especially their marketing campaign around the lawsuit certainly is an inconvenience for Apple...
There is a mobile Forza game.
There is a mobile Forza game.
Forza Street: Tap to Race
Race through the ultimate street racing scene at dizzying speed with the tap of your finger! Have fun winning the racing car collection of your dreams. Pick an event, choose a lineup of cars from your collection, and start racing for infamy in the first Forza game for mobile. COLLECT AND...
apps.apple.com
Its all in the link in Phil's tweet:
Microsoft has an enterprise-wide, multi-year Unreal Engine license agreement and has invested significant resources and engineer time working with and customizing Unreal Engine for its own games on PC, Xbox consoles, and mobile devices (including iOS devices).
i. For example, Microsoft's racing game Forza Street is currently available on iOS and utilizes Unreal Engine.
Forza Street for iOS uses Unreal Engine. I *believe* Gears Pop is another game.
I dont know about windows.. But MS reserves the rights to terminate your apps/contents/license for XDK if you breach the agreement.
Epic: Hey, we'd like to develop for macOS and iOS.
Apple: Cool, here are the rules. If you break them, we can remove your app from the store, and pull your developer certificate.
Epic: No problem.
~time and billions of dollars later~
Epic: Hey, we wanted to make more money, so we broke the rules, had a ready-made video mocking you, sued you, promoted a hashtag against you to our fans, and are now making merch both virtual and physical further making fun of you.
Apple: Cool, we're removing your app from the store and pulling your developer certificate.
Epic:
Like, I think that the 30% cut is quite possibly too much. I think that Apple's walled-garden approach has both positives and negatives. But this isn't like a TOS for the new Call of Duty that you beat your APM record clicking through, it's a business agreement that both parties agreed to. Even if it ends up in more flexibility for the App Store (and I think not allowing game-streaming services like xCloud and Stadia is ridiculous), Epic trying to act like the put-upon party here is a bit rich.
Apple: Cool, here are the rules. If you break them, we can remove your app from the store, and pull your developer certificate.
Epic: No problem.
~time and billions of dollars later~
Epic: Hey, we wanted to make more money, so we broke the rules, had a ready-made video mocking you, sued you, promoted a hashtag against you to our fans, and are now making merch both virtual and physical further making fun of you.
Apple: Cool, we're removing your app from the store and pulling your developer certificate.
Epic:
Like, I think that the 30% cut is quite possibly too much. I think that Apple's walled-garden approach has both positives and negatives. But this isn't like a TOS for the new Call of Duty that you beat your APM record clicking through, it's a business agreement that both parties agreed to. Even if it ends up in more flexibility for the App Store (and I think not allowing game-streaming services like xCloud and Stadia is ridiculous), Epic trying to act like the put-upon party here is a bit rich.
Seriously. Imagine actually believing that a software store should have a monopoly and 30% cut. As a developer that seems like such a toxic and horrible precedent. Actual brick and mortar stores with employees, property taxes, and utilities don't get 30%.
There is no shortage of software stores with a "monopoly" and 30% cut, it's quite literally the standard. Good thing Apple doesn't have to worry about paying employees, property taxes, and utilities to run the AppStore, that just runs on clouds and clouds are free.
If I was developing a game on Unreal, this entire situation would have me seriously reevaluating my choice of engine. Epic really seems disturbingly willing to hold their own customers hostage.
Google didn't do anything to Unreal Engine because the Android development tooling isn't locked down enough for this sort of thing to even happen on the platform. There isn't really all that much that Google could block access to that would significantly affect Unreal development. Unreal getting caught in the crossfire on iOS is entirely Epic's fault for pulling this stunt using the same developer account that they use for Unreal development.
Imagine coming in here being totally wrong about a point you're trying to make.
Apple did do something about it when they removed the game from the marketplace.
What threat is posed by epic's access to the SDK if the certification process for all games remains the same?
Thanks for posting this. His qualified view on the matter is more valuable and helpful then anything i've read in articles and forums to date.
What's a more acceptable cut, and how would you arrive at that number? I keep seeing people mention how 30% is egregious, but what's a number that is both fair to the end user of the agreement as well as the service provider?
Epic were sneaky enough to get a version of Fortnite through certification that had a convoluted way of accessing an alternative payment method bypassing Apples payment system. Who could say what damage they could do or what they could sneak past with the unreal engine but a company such as Apple would not like to wait around and find out. After all Epic already demonstrated that they are not beyond using methods to circumvent any certification standards and have clearly demonstrated and stated that they are no longer going to follow Apples Terms of service.
I really do not know where some people are coming from. Regardless of which company you hate the situation is if I break Epics Terms of Service Epic will remove any access I have to any of their software. If I try to somehow make money from the Unreal Engine and not give Epic their cut they will cut me off faster than I can say "but but that isn't fair". I don't particularly like Epic or Apple but let me put it this way if I am forced to have to put up with the bullshit Terms of service from the likes of Epic then the least they can do is obey the damn things too. If Epic does not want to abide by Apples ToS then Epic is free to not do business with Apple. Just like if I don't want to abide by Epics bullshit ToS then I am free to not use their engine.
My thoughts to the T.Epic: Hey, we'd like to develop for macOS and iOS.
Apple: Cool, here are the rules. If you break them, we can remove your app from the store, and pull your developer certificate.
Epic: No problem.
~time and billions of dollars later~
Epic: Hey, we wanted to make more money, so we broke the rules, had a ready-made video mocking you, sued you, promoted a hashtag against you to our fans, and are now making merch both virtual and physical further making fun of you.
Apple: Cool, we're removing your app from the store and pulling your developer certificate.
Epic:
Like, I think that the 30% cut is quite possibly too much. I think that Apple's walled-garden approach has both positives and negatives. But this isn't like a TOS for the new Call of Duty that you beat your APM record clicking through, it's a business agreement that both parties agreed to. Even if it ends up in more flexibility for the App Store (and I think not allowing game-streaming services like xCloud and Stadia is ridiculous), Epic trying to act like the put-upon party here is a bit rich.
It would be nice if Epic continued their important case while putting their game back up within the tos so other developers especially small ones don't get screwed. They have that power regardless of what you think of Apple. These devs are Epic's bread and butter. To apple they barely exist.
I can only imagine what would happen if all UE games started to fuck up, and how much of a problem that would end up being for Apple.
But, let's see where this ends.
But, let's see where this ends.
Feel like a lot of people are missing the point. This is an issue that Epic can 'fixed' by simply getting rid of the alternate payment options that they hot fixed into Fornite. They don't even need to drop their case. So this is an emergency that Epic purposely created because they see Unreal Engine and everyone that uses it as bargaining chips against Apple. Rather you hate Apple or not, it's nonsense to think that Apple should still be business with a company that didn't tell them what they changed.
Think of of it this way, if you were a private business, would you like it if someone forces you to work with someone who broke a contract that you made with them and they did it by lying to you about it?
Think of of it this way, if you were a private business, would you like it if someone forces you to work with someone who broke a contract that you made with them and they did it by lying to you about it?
Yeah, this is also more or less where I stand. Whether or not Apple's policies are problematic doesn't really matter here. Microsoft is basically arguing (possibly somewhat hypocritically, because I suspect their stance would be pretty different if someone tried to pull this sort of stunt on Xbox or the Windows Store) that Epic shouldn't face the full consequences for their actions because that would be really inconvenient for a lot of other devs. While they're not wrong, Epic is ultimately the one who bears 100% of the responsibility for even creating the possibility other Unreal games could be affected, and have the ability to rectify the situation at any time by just disabling the offending payment option until their court case is over. Microsoft really should be yelling at Epic for throwing everything into limbo to begin with and not Apple for enforcing the rules that Epic knowingly broke.
Something so easy but still difficult to grasp for certain people.Epic: Hey, we'd like to develop for macOS and iOS.
Apple: Cool, here are the rules. If you break them, we can remove your app from the store, and pull your developer certificate.
Epic: No problem.
~time and billions of dollars later~
Epic: Hey, we wanted to make more money, so we broke the rules, had a ready-made video mocking you, sued you, promoted a hashtag against you to our fans, and are now making merch both virtual and physical further making fun of you.
Apple: Cool, we're removing your app from the store and pulling your developer certificate.
Epic:
Phil Spencer shouldn't support this. He should actually contact Epic and tell them to stop playing with the license to develop for Apple products.
All epic has to do is fucking fix the problem that breaks the ToS in the first place. Just remove the direct payment option, apple reinstates everything as normal and the case goes on. Just because you have your product on the apple store doesn't mean you can't finish the legal debate in court.....although i highly doubt much is going to happen.
Every single platform charges 30%..........except somehow the EGS.....ironic.
The whole xCloud on iOS thing seems to be a completely different issue that Microsoft should be going after apple for using netflix, amazon and more as prime examples.
But epic really going to punish a LOT of developers pulling this bullshit outright instead of just hotfixing one thing in an app.
Every single platform charges 30%..........except somehow the EGS.....ironic.
The whole xCloud on iOS thing seems to be a completely different issue that Microsoft should be going after apple for using netflix, amazon and more as prime examples.
But epic really going to punish a LOT of developers pulling this bullshit outright instead of just hotfixing one thing in an app.
Microsoft is bringing xCloud to iOS soon, so I suppose they'd stand to benefit from this if Epic wins, so I guess it makes sense. I see no other reason for them to give any kind of support.
Though, to be honest, I do think it's weird that they're getting officially involved.
Though, to be honest, I do think it's weird that they're getting officially involved.
MS is just letting Epic test the waters against Apple. They got nothing to lose here.
Shouldn't be % of revenue but based on store usage. It's okay to make 10% profit margins on a storefront, but you need way less than 30% the game's revenue.
I have this crazy idea that a store is a utility.
Physical stores all have fixed, significant costs that are repeated per location. A developed store with a robust implementation to cloudburst is expensive to start for sure but once it's in sustaining mode you may have a couple dozen people in devops and development, but that's nothing expensive wise when you're talking 30% of revenue from an industry because that's fucking insane amounts of money.
All those cheerleading for Apple, cant wait to see your comments when MS locks down windows and only allows software from its own app store who have paid a 30% cut to MS, when google locks down Android and only allows apps that have paid google a 30% cut of their revenue. I have no doubt you will throw your support behing the ToS of MS and google.
I wish there was some sort of abridged version of the Hoeg videos.
Many peoples understanding of the situation would definitely benefit from watching them, but actually recommending the whole playlist at its current runtime makes you look a bit like one of those people who tells you you need to watch 50 hours of Jordan Peterson lectures to understand his subtle genius.
Many peoples understanding of the situation would definitely benefit from watching them, but actually recommending the whole playlist at its current runtime makes you look a bit like one of those people who tells you you need to watch 50 hours of Jordan Peterson lectures to understand his subtle genius.
I mean, there is nothing really stopping Epic from pulling the same stunt against Microsoft themselves. This isn't really the sort of behavior that a platform holder should be encouraging.
Yeah, Microsoft has something to gain from Apple being knocked down a peg thanks to their blatant double standards around game streaming, but I don't think MS would appreciate this tactic being turned against them.
OP
OP
Apple didn't locked down already open system, iOS was always closed system and Apple always sold iPhones by promoting them as closed systems. And people were and still are buying iPhone exactly because of that.
I'm mainly referring to Xbox there, unless there's a Windows Store port of Fortnite that I'm not aware of.